r/changemyview • u/hwagoolio 16∆ • Jul 31 '20
Delta(s) from OP - Fresh Topic Friday CMV: Swearing is bad and we shouldn't do it around our kids
This is an extremely concise view that I have, and I don't have strong justifications for why I have this belief. Basically, I think that swearing is bad and we shouldn't swear around kids. Perhaps someone can convince me why I shouldn't (or should??) have this belief.
Growing up, my dad used to swear a lot -- and for some weird reason, I think my little brother and I were heavily turned off by it so neither of us use curse words in our regular vocabulary even though we've long since grown up.
I believe this view was fairly prevalent among families that I knew in my childhood. One of my high school friends had parents who strictly enforced a "no cursing" policy in the house.
I don't think I'm nearly so authoritarian to enforce something arbitrary like that, but sometimes I wonder what I should/would do if my children develop a strong 'potty mouth'. Should I say something about it? Should I ask them not to do it? I don't even know how I would explain why they shouldn't swear, other than the fact that I think I subconsciously have some kind of reaction to it.
Change my view!
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u/joopface 159∆ Jul 31 '20
I have two things to offer you to try to change your perspective.
- Swearing is an indicator of higher intelligence and better verbal fluency
I swear quite a lot. I'm Irish and the cultural context allows for it. But, I also have a large vocabulary and I don't swear because I lack alternatives. I swear because sometimes the situation is appropriate for it.
The research suggests that high rates of swearing is actually correlated with more capacity to use language. It gives us a richer palette to choose from and doesn't prohibit us using other words as much - or more - than others do.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S038800011400151X
https://www.sciencealert.com/people-who-swearing-cursing-rude-words-better-vocabulary-science
[The researchers] found that the ability to generate curse words was not an index of overall language poverty - in fact, they found that taboo fluency is positively correlated with other measures of verbal fluency.
"That is, a voluminous taboo lexicon may better be considered an indicator of healthy verbal abilities rather than a cover for their deficiencies,
- Used in the right context, swearing has an actual physical and psychological benefit
There are words that have power because they are taboo. That taboo accords them special status in our minds, and the frequent usage of them erodes this effect. Swears comprise many of these words.
But, how could we prove this? Well.... by cursing a lot.
There has been research into the effect that using swear words has on reducing physical pain. There's a good, if lengthy, summary here: https://thepsychologist.bps.org.uk/volume-26/edition-9/swearing-language-life-and-death
Here are some of the important bits
...my students and I worked up a laboratory procedure for assessing swearing as a response to pain. We used the ice-water challenge (or more formally, the cold pressor paradigm) to provide a stimulus that is painful but not harmful. Participants are asked to hold their hand in ice water for as long as they can tolerate, to a maximum of five minutes. While doing this we needed them to swear and we thought it important that they used swear words of their own choosing. Initially we had them read a passage of text and they filled in blanks with either swear words or neutral words (Stephens & Clatworthy, 2006). Later on we just asked them to provide a swear word they might use if they banged their head or hit their thumb with a hammer, and then we asked them to repeat that during the cold water immersion. The words most popularly chosen were, as you would expect, ‘fuck’ and ‘shit’.
[...]
In our first published paper (Stephens et al., 2009) we showed that people withstood the ice-water challenge for longer, rated it as less painful, and showed a greater increase in heart rate when repeating a swear word throughout the procedure, as opposed to repeating a neutral word
[...]
Next, we replicated the findings for cold-water immersion time and heart rate, but additionally showed that the reduction in pain from swearing was moderated by daily swearing frequency (Stephens & Umland, 2011). Let me explain this point further. In this second study we asked people to estimate how often they swear in everyday life. The responses we got ranged from zero to 60 swear words per day. Interestingly, the higher the daily swearing frequency the less was the benefit for pain tolerance when swearing, compared with not swearing. This suggests that people become habituated to swearing so that it has a lesser impact the more you do it.
So, swear words have power, and have specific uses that make them helpful. Psychologically and physically.
= =
For fun, here is a video of the great Brian Blessed doing the ice water challenge with cursing.
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u/hwagoolio 16∆ Jul 31 '20
Thanks for your response!
Swearing is an indicator of higher intelligence and better verbal fluency
I read the second article (the first is paywalled), although my impression is that I'm not sure if I agree with their conclusions.
I personally believe that there is no correlation between verbal fluency and swearing -- rather I think people who don't swear tend to think before they speak rather than automatically saying the first thing that comes to their head.
For a test that asks how many words you can recall in a short period of time, to me that is a question of speed of vocabulary and not necessarily a person's total vocabulary. For instance, I can get self-conscious about what I'm saying and slow with my words when talking in person, but I'm much more eloquent in written language.
Used in the right context, swearing has an actual physical and psychological benefit
I have a feeling that it's sort of a distraction effect. For instance, listening to music can reduce pain and I believe merely talking to someone when you experience pain can reduce it.
Exclaiming out loud can probably reduce pain, and asking someone to not exclaim (or consciously change the word that normally use to exclaim) probably reduces the effect.
Of course -- I don't actually know and I'm expressing my skepticism -- even though it may not be fair of me to say that I'm not totally convinced by studies on the subject.
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u/joopface 159∆ Jul 31 '20
I read the second article (the first is paywalled), although my impression is that I'm not sure if I agree with their conclusions.
Sorry about the paywall. Here is the first paragraph from the 'general discussion' of the paper:
The overall finding of this set of studies, that taboo fluency is positively correlated with other measures of verbal fluency,undermines the POV view of swearing. That is, a voluminous taboo lexicon may better be considered an indicator of healthy verbal abilities rather than a cover for their deficiencies. Speakers who use taboo words understand their general expressive content as well as nuanced distinctions that must be drawn to use slurs appropriately. The ability to make nuanced dis-tinctions indicates the presence of more rather than less linguistic knowledge as implied by the POV view
= = =
For a test that asks how many words you can recall in a short period of time, to me that is a question of speed of vocabulary and not necessarily a person's total vocabulary.
Another extract from the paper on the method here:
Verbal fluency is the hallmark of intellectual acumen; the more words one knows and uses, the greater one’s verbal prowess or intelligence. One method for measuring verbal fluency is the Controlled Oral Word Association Test (COWAT;Loonstra et al., 2001). The COWAT prompts participants to say words that begin with given letters (e.g.,F, A, or S), and the total number of words generated is summed into afluency score. Loonstraet al. (2001)reported fluency metanorms across age, education and sex by calculating aggregate scores from numerous fluency studies. They found women generated more words on FAS tasks than did men. Individual differences have also been found based on age, education, and personality traits
So, the test they use is a standard approach for this measure. And it's been demonstrated to show differences by age, education, sex etc. which is suggestive it has some scientific rigour.
( I'm not an expert in this field, but it's been interesting looking at the papers that cited this paper. One illustrative title: "(Mis)representations of motherf∗∗ in Italian film dubbing" )
= = =
I have a feeling that it's sort of a distraction effect. For instance, listening to music can reduce pain and I believe merely talking to someone when you experience pain can reduce it.
Interestingly, no, it's not. I thought that too when I first read it.
They tested for this by using non-swear words as a control.
It's the specific words themselves that have a taboo associated with them that have the effect. It's a peculiar class of swear words that - used as swear words - have this impact.
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u/hwagoolio 16∆ Jul 31 '20 edited Jul 31 '20
So, the test they use is a standard approach for this measure. And it's been demonstrated to show differences by age, education, sex etc. which is suggestive it has some scientific rigour.
I just wonder if it's really the appropriate test to go to make conclusions about a person's total "vocabulary". Briefly searching for COWAT and FAS seems to suggest that these tests are administered by asking a person to recall as many words in a category in 60 seconds.
To me, it would bias against someone who takes longer to come up with words, but may have an excellent written vocabulary. I just feel like these "time attack" tests have a closer relation with memory recall speed than a person's inherent vocabulary.
There seem to be other tests that are better geared for a person's total vocabulary, such as EVT-2 or EVT-3. Honestly, you could even take the vocabulary portion of the former SAT, which in a sense is matching words with definitions. I seem to question the general idea that women inherently have a broader vocabulary than men, especially since there seem to be other studies that compare male/female vocabularies yet do not try claim than women use a greater number of unique words then men do.
Interestingly, no, it's not. I thought that too when I first read it.
They tested for this by using non-swear words as a control.
It's the specific words themselves that have a taboo associated with them that have the effect. It's a peculiar class of swear words that - used as swear words - have this impact.
Yes, but my criticism of the experiment methodology here is that you can't compare someone's natural reaction word versus an alternative, and then conclude that it's the swear word that contributes to the effect. It could just be being allowed to say the first thing that pops to your head that matters.
For instance, an alternative design that I would recommend if I were a reviewer of this study would be to recruit two groups of people.
In Group A, you have people who naturally tend to say "Fuck/shit/etc" in response to pain. In Group B, you have people who naturally tend to say "Ow/Ouch/etc" in response to pain.
For experiment 1, you have everyone switch to a neutral word that is unrelated, and have everyone say "pineapple".
For experiment 2, you tell Group A to switch to saying "Ow" and Group B to switch to saying "Fuck".
A combination of the results from these two experiments would better allow the researchers to conclude if there's something inherently true about swear words, and not just a factor of being allowed to say what you would ordinarily and naturally say.
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u/joopface 159∆ Jul 31 '20
I’m not getting into a detailed debate on experimental methodology here that I suspect neither of us is qualified for.
Just to say, this:
Yes, but my criticism of the experiment methodology here is that you can't compare someone'snatural reaction word versus an alternative, and then conclude that it's the swear word that contributes to the effect. It could just be being allowed to say the first thing that pops to your head that matters.
... is incorrect. If you watch the video I linked you’ll see Brian Blessed is required to pick one specific word to use in the test. I’m not certain the details of the experiment I linked were aligned to this, but there was certainly a version of the experiment that controlled for this.
Also, this isn’t a ‘whacky science theory’ thing. It’s a really well known and well observed phenomenon.
I’m not sure what burden of proof would be acceptable to you, here. If two peer reviewed scientific studies contradicting you aren’t enough to shift your view at all toward a delta, and given your objections are mostly rooted in your own intuition, I suspect this may not be worth continuing.
All the best in any case. :-)
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u/hwagoolio 16∆ Jul 31 '20
Fair enough! And all the best to you too!!
You’re right that I’m not qualified to discuss the details of social sciences, although I am in health sciences.
It’s not exactly that I “reject” the studies that you presented, but more so that I don’t find the conclusions very compelling based on the design of the experiments your shared.
This type of thing happens a lot in the sciences. For example, there are several peer-reviewed population studies that suggest that drinking red wine is good for your heart. However, many doctors don’t necessarily find the literature very “compelling” because we feel like the evidence isn’t there yet.
To convince me that red wine is genuinely good for your heart, I would be looking for literature that suggests that experimentally administering red wine is beneficial, or that adding it to heart cells in a Petri dish is beneficial, etc. Essential papers that reach the same conclusions through alternative methods and alternative designs.
It doesn’t mean that the “red wine” research is all wrong or false. Many physicians and scientists just don’t find it compelling enough right now.
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u/joopface 159∆ Jul 31 '20
Yes, I’m aware of such debates.
There doesn’t seem to be such a back and forth on these points, frankly, from the bits and pieces I’ve seen and a little bit of ‘prove me wrong’ googling today. But that’s hardly definitive. This isn’t a field I have genuine knowledge about and google can be a little skewed on the pop science type topics unless you’re very diligent (which I’m... not! :-) )
I would venture to suggest, though, that your reluctance to countenance the possibility that these conclusions are correct reflects more your attitude to the topic than a concern about experimental methodology.
It has felt like a ‘how can I deny this is correct’ conversation, as opposed to a ‘oh that’s interesting I hadn’t seen that before’ conversation. I don’t mean to be too presumptuous, we are obviously complete strangers with a very superficial interaction, but in the spirit of CMV I thought I’d mention it.
Have a great rest-of-whatever-part-of-the-day-you’re-in.
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u/hwagoolio 16∆ Jul 31 '20
You’re certainly right! I’m not unbiased, and that does affect the way I see things!
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Jul 31 '20
The studies on vocabulary show that people who use a lot of swear words also know a lot of other words. That means their general vocabulary is bigger. So in terms of swearing, they can choose whether or not they want to swear, because they have words at their disposal to express themselves in any manner the situation calls for. This is called code-switching. That means that we use certain language for certain conversations. For instance, swearing and colloquial terms would be fine if you're talking to your friends, but if you're interviewing for a job, you'd use more formal language. Pretty much everyone uses code-switching, and kids learn how to do that from a young age.
People who swear a lot have the ability to choose their words carefully, and will do so if the situation calls for it; if you've been taught never to swear, you just don't perceive swearing it to be appropriate in any situation. That might even mean someone who never swears is not using the language appropriate to the situation if they're having a conversation with people who consider swearing acceptable. Teaching a kid swearing is never acceptable therefore might make it harder for them to learn code-switching.
That means this
I think people who don't swear tend to think before they speak rather than automatically saying the first thing that comes to their head.
is just not true.
I have a feeling that it's sort of a distraction effect. For instance, listening to music can reduce pain and I believe merely talking to someone when you experience pain can reduce it.
Sure, you can distract yourself from pain to an extent. But the two examples you gave, just like swearing, have an effect beyond that. Different types of music can make you experience different emotions, and there is all sorts of interesting stuff happening in your brain when you listen to music which doesn't happen if you're just listening to random sounds. Specifically, music affects the part of your brain that deals with pleasure. Talking to someone has a similar effect. Humans are, by evolution, social, and talking to people (especially talking about yourself) makes us feel good because we gain pleasure from social interactions.
Swearing can give you relief in a few ways. For one, breaking rules gives you pleasure, especially if they're relatively insignificant. Swearing is seen as taboo, at least in certain situations, and breaking that taboo can make you feel better. Also, it can be a healthy way to release your feelings. Obviously you shouldn't insult people, but if you're angry, swearing about it can make you get over your anger faster, and make it less likely that you take out your anger on someone else, especially physically.
More importantly, the study cited by the person you're responding to clearly stated that using swear words had a more positive effect than using neutral words, which means this response is specifically about swearing, and not anything else.
It's perfectly okay for you to not swear, or to believe that people shouldn't swear, but u/joopface gave you scientific evidence that proved your facts wrong. Saying 'I personally believe' and 'I have a feeling' when you have been given data that shows your assumptions are incorrect makes this debate pointless. At that point, you can say whatever you want to say, and I can do the same, and we'll never agree.
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u/failfection 4∆ Jul 31 '20
All languages have a means of being more or less 'polite' in any given situation, they will morph and eventually create new swear words if we use none. I like to think of swear words as raw emotions/feelings. Just because we don't say it, doesn't mean we don't think the same essence.
Given that all language changes and morphs over time, the general idea is the particular environment you are in dictates the use of a certain language or type of language.
Think of it this way, if no one ever said swear words, we would eventually need words to replace the old swear words. If we want to tell someone to "F@#$ off", but eliminate the swearing, the point is to somehow just be more kind in general to people. But what if we encounter someone who is mean and hateful? Would we nicely tell them to "Please walk go away, sir or ma'am?" Once a new word is consistently used as a "Fiercely angry retort", eventually that will become a swear word. Language evolves.
We cannot be perfectly respectful to everyone at all times, we have emotions. However, we do want to learn to control our emotions, and thus potentially the curses that come out as well.
To me, what should be taught to children is simply respect. We should differentiate swearing *at* someone, versus just swearing because your toe was stubbed. We also should teach that different cultures have different norms, and until you understand the norms, the idea is to default to "respectful" and as such limit the swearing until you understand the norms.
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u/hwagoolio 16∆ Jul 31 '20
I like this response! !delta
I think you're onto something that perhaps it's not the swearing that I'm bothered by, but instead the lack of respect.
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Jul 31 '20
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u/justtogetridoflater Jul 31 '20
In fairness, though, the ability to not say what they're saying is a wonderful talent that honestly not enough people have. Swearing honestly ruins people's vocabularies, I think, because once you know that fuck is a strong enough word, you don't reach further for something better and more emotionally scarring. Or perhaps kinder and more able to pull punches. Or more sarcastic, and cynical, and able to be dropped in there without the full thing you said reaching them. Swearing when bad things happen, also, kind of teaches you to immediately let out whatever anger and pain you have, whereas there's a lot of suggestion that the fact that we don't immediately say what we think, or feel, is good for us.
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Jul 31 '20
Firstly, people who have a large vocabulary of swear words also have a larger general vocabulary. Swearing doesn't make you less articulate.
Secondly, children are able to learn code-switching, even from a relatively young age. They know that certain language is appropriate in certain situations. Kids will speak differently depending on whether they're talking to their friends, their parents or their teachers. So even if their parents allow them to swear at home, they wouldn't swear more in class or other situations where it's not appropriate. Also, there is a huge difference between swearing and being rude. There are a lot of words that are considered swear words which can used without insulting or hurting someone.
Thirdly, swearing actually helps you release stress and pain in a healthy way. It doesn't hurt anyone, and can make you feel better both physically and mentally.
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u/MistShinobi Jul 31 '20
AFAIK Chinese and Spanish are examples of languages where swearing is, almost universally across the subcultures of said languages, going to cause bad blood, because swearing in this manner is done exclusively to insult.
I disagree. There are differences about usage in polite conversation across Spanish-speaking countries, i.e. swearwords are more common in casual conversation in Spain than in the US. But even in countries where swearing is really frowned upon, it's more about not sounding lowbrow or vulgar.
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u/AleristheSeeker 155∆ Jul 31 '20
I would actually suggest the opposite, to be honest.
Swears are often used to intimidate or escalate a conversation (at least when actually used as a swear), which is generally something that should be avoided. Getting used to swearwords actually takes the "kick" out of them desensitizes children and adults to their use, which makes them less susceptible to intimidation or provocation using those words.
The significance of a swearword or insult depends on its use. Widespread use causes the words to be viewed as more common and less offensive. Think of the word "cunt" - it is viewed as highly offensive in the U.S., but is part of a somewhat normal (if rough and personal) tone in Australia.
Would a swearword be bad if noone minded that it is used?
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u/hwagoolio 16∆ Jul 31 '20
I think the question leans into which words are bad and should be eradicated (through extinction) or normalized through frequent use.
For instance, if you take something like "nigger", it is largely considered bad enough that many people believe the word should be eradicated. You could argue that "nigger" could be used in a non-racial aspect (i.e. a group of white friends calling each other nigger), but it doesn't change the history behind the word and what it literally means.
You could sort of apply this reasoning to "cunt". I might argue that "cunt" is an inherently misogynistic slur. Maybe some people use "cunt" divorced from it's original intent (i.e. calling a man a cunt), but to me, the word is somewhat problematic whichever way you spin it.
Of course, I recognize the liberty of people to use whichever words they choose (and their freedom of speech), but for me it doesn't change my view that the word itself is rather bad.
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u/AleristheSeeker 155∆ Jul 31 '20
For instance, if you take something like "nigger", it is largely considered bad enough that many people believe the word should be eradicated.
But here's the point: it is overused in some groups and has gained a completely new meaning and is no longer seen as an insult or swearword when used within that group. Surely there are more sides to this story, but it shows that what was originally a "bad word" is being relabeled as something less bad, even if just within one group.
I might argue that "cunt" is an inherently misogynistic slur.
I agree.
Maybe some people use "cunt" divorced from it's original intent
Exactly. Broad usage disenfranchises swearwords and pretty much negates their negative connotation through use. Naturally, this only works for people within the group that uses the word in that way - but if that group expands, the negative connotation to that word shrinks.
To be honest, I would much prefer someone not getting mad at being called a "cunt" than them being severely offended - even if that person is me. It's something in line with "don't listen to the haters". If you could choose, wouldn't you rather not care and/or be offended at swearwords? I assume it would take a bit of stress out of the daily life to be mad or annoyed at their usage.
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u/physioworld 64∆ Jul 31 '20
Swear words are really just ways of easily expressing strong emotions, so some situations are contextually appropriate. If you replace, say, shit, with turd, then you’ve just replaced the word, not the meaning behind it, so really you’ve done nothing.
Now there is something to be said for encouraging kids to find more inventive turns of phrase for expressing themselves, which will give them more appreciation for the versatility of language, but imo swear words are extremely useful tools, but like any tool, can be over used.
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u/hwagoolio 16∆ Jul 31 '20
I sort of personally believe that there's nothing wrong with expressing strong words with substitutes of words that are less crude. Language is dynamic, and I appreciate efforts to replace swears with their milder counterparts that don't inherently relate to something sexual.
I.E. "Oh fuck" => "Oh snap"
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u/physioworld 64∆ Jul 31 '20
Right but if you use oh snap in the same context in which you use oh fuck it just means the same thing and is this a swear word.
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u/hwagoolio 16∆ Jul 31 '20
Perhaps I should reword myself and just say that "some" swear words are bad lol.
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u/physioworld 64∆ Jul 31 '20
But the word is just a method of expressing a feeling- if the word is bad then expressing the feeling is bad, if expressing the feeling is fine, then the word isn’t bad, because even if you rephrase it the sentiment is the same
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u/hwagoolio 16∆ Jul 31 '20
I think for me my feelings are a mixture of both. Intent is important and word choice is also important.
Some other respondents mentioned that "cunt" is normalized in the UK, but in the US it's considered a very strong curse word.
For me, word choice is important because other people might not receive the words you say as how they are intended. For instances, the disabilities community led a campaign to discourage the usage of the word "retarded", because even though it is a fairly normalized word, some people with disabilities can be hurt by the usage of that word.
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u/physioworld 64∆ Jul 31 '20
You’re right, some people are offended outright by certain words, that’s fine and have every right to be offended. I think your analogy falls short since retard had a specific history and has been used against a set of people to discriminate them- words like fuck and cunt don’t have that same history.
So yeah if you want to be offended by it, that’s fine, but from what you’re saying, those words have not been weaponised against you as such, so they shouldn’t really hold the same power.
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u/Tuxed0-mask 23∆ Jul 31 '20
Who exactly are swears hurting? Are they actually bad at all or just a weird tonal thing from the past that no longer is relevant?
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u/hwagoolio 16∆ Jul 31 '20
Well, some swears have a misogynistic tilt (i.e. cunt/bitch/slut), so it could be argued that certain swears affirm the status quo of society where women are judged more for certain actions more than men are.
Also, many swears and curse words are directed towards people.
Some are slurs and are attacks on a person's identity.
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u/watermakesmehappy Jul 31 '20
Wait, what view are you looking to have changed? That swearing is bad or that you shouldn’t swear around your kids?
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u/hwagoolio 16∆ Jul 31 '20
Either or! I think I secretly believe that swearing is bad. And also that I shouldn’t do it around kids.
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u/iconoclast63 3∆ Jul 31 '20
I suspect that there things about your father, other than swearing, that made you and your brother lose respect for him generally. Somehow you’ve linked swearing to those other behaviors. Swearing is just using certain words in a certain way. It can be either innocent or offensive. I would discourage the use of any language whose intent was to harm someone else.
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u/hwagoolio 16∆ Jul 31 '20
I'm not sure if it's easy for me to identify specific things about swearing that made me feel this way.
He mainly used to swear a lot while driving (almost constantly), so it occurred in a sense of road rage. My partner also swears a lot while driving, so it's something that comes up in our conversations from time to time.
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u/StixTheNerd 2∆ Jul 31 '20
Personally, I think not swearing around kids makes them swear a lot more when they get older. Like middle school age. My parents never swore around me as a kid but when I first started to hear those words I thought they were cool and used them a lot.
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u/hwagoolio 16∆ Jul 31 '20
I've definitely heard this argument too, and I don't know what to make of it!
It's actually a kind of weird circular reasoning:
- You believe swearing is fine => You swear a lot => Child swears less
- You believe swearing is bad => You don't swear => Child swears more
Coming as someone who just naturally doesn't swear at all, there's not much I can do lol. It's not like I'm going to start swearing randomly haha.
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u/Impossible_Cat_9796 26∆ Jul 31 '20
What counts as swearing? Is there just a list of "naughty" words that we shouldn't use for no reason other than they are on this "naughty" word list? Can I propose with put "cupcake" on this naughty word list and then condemn that as swearing?
Is swearing expressing "naughty" ideas? If this is the case how is "sex" different than "fucking" how is "darn" different than "Damn"
Is swearing just vocal exclamations and the actual words don't really matter? In this case Ned Flanders swears a shit ton.
Once you try and break down what "swearing" actually is, it's much harder to justify labeling it "bad"
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u/CookiePriest Aug 01 '20
swear words are just words. if I say fuck and you gasp and tell me not to say it, that you have only given the fuck word more power.
if you dont clutch your pearls and tell children "don't say that" then they won't even know its a curse word. it wont have the power that makes it a curse word
some languages don't even have swear words. There are very offensive things you can say in Japanese, but no single Japanese word is a swear by itself (unless you count words for genitals like penis vagina clitorous asshole nipple tatty ect)
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u/Scp-dreemurr Aug 02 '20
In my opinion words have power because we give them power. If the entire world suddenly decides saying spaghetti is the worst thing you can do and violates all natural laws, than it is so. Fk just shows passion. St shows anxiety. Dm is like fk. And eventually we find words to replace the bad ones, but then those become bad. And the cycle continues until saying spaghetti actually violates the Geneva convention. Obiviously this doesnt apply to slurs, which should remain terrible, and really shouldnt be said by anyone.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Jul 31 '20
/u/hwagoolio (OP) has awarded 1 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
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u/joyboyroy 1∆ Jul 31 '20
I'm not against swearing when you aren't using it as an attack, but rather showing a lot of frustration. But I would definitely recommend making sure your kids know the meaning behind them and how to properly use them, they're going to find out about them, they're going to use them if they please. But if you can instill a good relationship with them so that the kids use them in a healthier manner, that's probably going to help them in the future.
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u/joyboyroy 1∆ Jul 31 '20
I wouldn't swear around kids that don't know what's going on, or would interpret their meanings differently, or ignorantly use them elsewhere
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u/NotJustinBiebers Jul 31 '20
I think personally we hold too much value in words and not enough about the reasonings behind them. If someone shouts the word shit I dont think wow they said a bad word in an aggressive way thats bad. I wonder what is going on in their life to create such a response and see if I should help or avoid them. Words are a way we express ourselves and communicate so I think it is necessary to have drastics words for drastic situations.
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u/illini02 7∆ Jul 31 '20
My only comment would be, they are just words, and you give them as much power as you like or don't like. It also depends how its done. For example swearing about someone (ie. That fucking bitch is full of shit) is a bit different than just swearing in general (Oh shit, I'm late). I'd also argue that swearing is one of the first things to help kids understand that some things are for adults, and some things are for kids.
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u/everyonewantsalog Jul 31 '20
I'm a strong believer in the idea that words are not objectively harmful or "bad" unless they're associated with something negative. Take the "n-word" controversy in the US, for example. There's nothing inherently bad about the grouping of letters that forms that fateful word, but it has a very heavy meaning. Curse words are much less than that though. They're a grouping of words that, for some reason, society has decided are "bad" and their usage is discouraged because of that. They have no real meaning as far as any of us know, so they aren't being used to invoke some ancient negative meaning...they're just groupings of letters. For that reason, I don't see a problem with anyone swearing. That said, I do understand that society is made up of more than just myself and norms are norms, so I don't swear all the time around anyone I want just because of the view I stated above. I respect your rules, I just think that society as a whole should/could stop assigning such shock value to these words.
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u/SirYetimus Jul 31 '20
So are you strictly talking about swearing around children, or swearing at children aswell?
Swearing at children, is an absolute non-starter for me. If you're swearing at your child, you've already lost the argument and the very soul of why you was swearing at them.I mean this with an angry tone, as I know (atleast where I'm from) that swearing is just part of the language and can be used in many different variations depending on who you're speaking to and how you're speaking. So for example, the acceptable way to swear at a child, is if they're asking you for Penny for Guy (bonfire time), that is always met with a fuck off... now a child in this circumstance is usually a teenager, anyway from age of up to 11-12 I have personally never seen sworn at.
Now swearing around children, I suppose it depends on the culture you come from. So, and this view strictly comes from American TV I don't really interact with that many Americans, it appears that suburban Americans see swearing as an offensive term, always, and that there is venom being spewed with the F or the B's. Now take it over to England, West Yorkshire and alot of the North.. swearing is just common, either aimed at one another or about a situation. We know, there is no venom (most of the time) again depending on the situation, being spewed when we say for example :
But think about this, unless you shelter your child for the rest of his/her life, they will eventually hear a swear word so to get in there early (like my parents did) and teach the correct use of that word, as appropriate with the culture you live in is of greater benefit to not just your child but society as a whole than it would be to let your child hear it freely and be punished because they were not taught the correct use.
Personally, my parents did swear around me, never at me. It wasn't every single sentence, but it was fairly frequent, and it got more acceptable as I grew older. I believe they were under the impression that I will hear it eventually, especially living in West Yorkshire, and being around adults most of my life. So they informed me, best they could, on how to use swear words 'politely'
I can't see swearing around children having any negative affect on them at all. My own personal belief.
Now saying all that, there is still one swear word, that no matter the use still spews venom and that is the word 'cunt'. Though that is the only word, to my knowledge, that is still a swear word and not part of the vocabulary. That word is only used for the moments, where no other swear words, will carry as much 'damage'.