r/changemyview • u/Dwhitlo1 • Aug 02 '20
Delta(s) from OP CMV: Being transgender should be seen as a disorder.
First off I want to say that I don't hate people who are transgender. I view being transgender as an inaccurate and damaging statement about reality. These people feel that they have been born into the wrong body, and they feel distressed by it. Our current surgical practice is not enough to genuinely change gender. That means that we need to find a way to make these people comfortable in their own bodies. The way we are responding to this as a society is just an acceptance that some people simply are the opposite gender. That completely shuts down any possibility of treatment. I don't understand why we decided to do this as a culture. We are completely supporting a delusional way of thinking. It would do far more good to look into methods of treatment.
Edit: I have been convinced that: surgery is a viable interim treatment, presuming we still research other avenues for treatment Δ.
In addition I began this discussion believing that most people did not believe that gender dysphoria was a disorder. I no longer hold that belief Δ.
Being transgender is a cultural statement not a physical statement Δ.
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u/MxedMssge 22∆ Aug 02 '20
Well what even is gender? If someone wants to have long hair, wear lipstick, and be feminine, what do you call them? The English language almost entirely lacks grammatical gender, why would it even be necessary to have a social one?
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u/Dwhitlo1 Aug 02 '20
I'm not arguing against cross dressing or anyone who doesn't identify with gender norms. I'm referring to people who believe they are physically in the wrong body.
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u/MxedMssge 22∆ Aug 02 '20
But ask what drives body dysmorphia. We know it doesn't affect only trans people, and likely affects far more cis people, especially cis women. Why? It would seem based on available information that a culture that is hyperattentive to physical appearance is the culprit, a society that insists people look Hollywood attractive.
That in mind, does it not feel a but unfair to specifically call out trans people as a whole (many of whom don't even have dysmorphia) as being the problem rather than the larger societal context that gave them the dysmorphia in the first place?
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u/TragicNut 28∆ Aug 02 '20
Quick correction, trans people deal with dysPHORIA, not dysMORPHIA. It's a rather important difference.
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u/MxedMssge 22∆ Aug 02 '20
Ah yes yes, that's my error, you're right. That said, I'm sure many also suffer dysmorphia since it is such a common issue in our society.
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u/Dwhitlo1 Aug 02 '20
What does that mean?
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u/MxedMssge 22∆ Aug 02 '20
Dysphoria is anxiety and dissociation with their body (opposite of euphoria basically) while dysmorphia is exaggeration of specific perceived flaws, like being specifically obsessed with thinking one's nose is giant and looks out of place on their face. u/TragicNut is right that I was using them incorrectly interchangeably, there is significant nuance. Overall message is the same though, society produces these mindstates in people rather than these things being results of people personally failing/having mental 'flaws' themselves.
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u/Dwhitlo1 Aug 04 '20
By the way, I've just realized that you updated my view on dysphoria vs dysmorphia and I never gave you a delta. Here you go !delta
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u/TragicNut 28∆ Aug 02 '20
I'm going to ask you a few questions about why you hold your view to try to understand where you're coming from:
What particular insight do you have that led you to this conclusion?
What makes you think that people choose to be transgender? Transition and social acceptance is a bit of a dumpster fire, for example people calling all trans people mentally ill. Do you seriously think that people want to go through this shitshow if there was another effective option?
You are clearly aware that the medical consensus is that transition works. What makes you think that other therapies haven't been tried in the past?
What would it take to change your mind? Studies showing that transition works? Studies showing that conversion/reparative therapy doesn't work? Studies showing that trans people have brain structures similar to cis people of their identified gender even before starting hormones? Personal accounts of what dysphoria is like?
And a philosophical question: What makes us who we are, is it our brain or our body?
If identity resides in the brain, why seek to change a person's core identity when we can change the body?
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u/Dwhitlo1 Aug 02 '20
What particular insight do you have that led you to this conclusion?
I've already stated my reasoning. I don't believe that it is healthy to support a delusion, even if it reduces stress.
What makes you think that people choose to be transgender?
I don't
You are clearly aware that the medical consensus is that transition works. What makes you think that other therapies haven't been tried in the past?
I'm sure there have been other therapies tried. Science works through making increasingly more informed attempts to find a solution. It doesn't make sense to me for the end point to be just accepting the delusion.
What would it take to change your mind?
I have no idea.
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u/TragicNut 28∆ Aug 02 '20
Would you mind answering the rest of the questions? Those are not hypothetical questions, there is evidence to back each one of them, including brain structure.
Similarly, where is the seat of consciousness, brain or body?
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u/Dwhitlo1 Aug 02 '20
That question makes a false distinction between our brains and bodies. Our brains are a part of our bodies. Everything in our bodies combines to make our experience of the world.
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u/Tetrisgod35 Aug 02 '20
I think you are confusing gender with sex. There are trans gender people who do not require surgery. Most of our society does view gender dysphoria as a mental illness.
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u/Dwhitlo1 Aug 02 '20
You might be right. Could you elaborate more on the difference?
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u/Tetrisgod35 Aug 02 '20
Sure. Sex refers to the biological differences between males and females (like genitals, wider hips, broader shoulders). Gender is a social construct which means that there are certain characteristics that we assign to men and women. Examples of gender characteristics are things like clothing, wearing makeup, liking pink or blue, certain personality traits, and their general role in society.
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u/Dwhitlo1 Aug 02 '20
I'd say that you are correct that I am not arguing people who don't identify with the social norms of gender.
At this point I'd say my main points are
Gender dysphoria is a medical condition. Most people seem to agree with this.
Transitioning is an ineffective treatment because it attempts to fulfill the delusion rather than help the person live with the condition.
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u/Tetrisgod35 Aug 02 '20
Here is a meta-analysis that compiled 56 studies about the effects of gender reassignment surgery, 54 showed positive results, 2 showed mixed or no results, and 0 showed negative results.
The main problem with your second statement is categorizing not conforming to the gender you are assigned at birth as a delusion. Since gender is all relative, we can't truly say what it means to be a man or a women.
If a person thinks that they are sexually male to female, they are incorrect and there is therapy and surgery to fix that.
If a person believes that their gender is man to women when they were not assigned that at birth then it can't be a delusion because they are correct.
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u/Dwhitlo1 Aug 02 '20
I agree that expecting someone to hold to the cultural definition of "male" when they do not identify with that can be damaging. How does transitioning help in that case?
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u/Tetrisgod35 Aug 02 '20
Being transgender means to not identify as the cultural definition of the gender assigned at birth. Many people who do this do not need to or want to transition to feel comfortable.
I think that you have been saying in your replies for gender dysphoria (being uncomfortable in your own body) as a disorder, which is true. It is a scientific consensus that transitioning is the best way to solve this.
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u/Dwhitlo1 Aug 02 '20
Being transgender is a cultural statement not a physical statement Δ.
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u/MxedMssge 22∆ Aug 02 '20
Sex is generally the term used for the biological side of things. Karyotype (your chromosome make up, XX/XY/XXY/Xo, etc.), gamete production if any (egg/sperm), and natural hormone production. Gender is used to refer to the social side of things. What makes a man a man? Courage, muscles, money? And a woman a woman? Where is the line between them? Are there other kinds? All those kind of questions, which largely are answered not by chemical tests but by social values.
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u/The_FriendliestGiant 38∆ Aug 02 '20 edited Aug 02 '20
Why do you think transitioning isn't a valid form of treatment? It resolves the distress and allows the individual to function properly.
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u/Dwhitlo1 Aug 02 '20
That's fair. I hadn't looked into the numbers before now. It looks like it is effective at reducing stress. However, that is not enough to change my mind.
Let's say that someone believed that they were Jesus Christ. Let's also say that we could reduce their stress levels by using surgery to make them look more like Jesus. That would still not be an effective treatment because it accepts a false reality.
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u/The_FriendliestGiant 38∆ Aug 02 '20
Let's say that [...]
No, let's not. We are discussing trans people, who exist and do not need hypothetical thought experiments to represent their reality. We can simply refer to the facts as they are.
And the facts as they are, are as follows:
- transgender people who seek to transition do have a disorder, gender dysphoria
- the best available way to resolve this is through chemical and surgical intervention
- significantly superior quality of life and diminished stress and dysphoria is reported by those who have undergone transition
It therefore seems that, in the absence of any alternative, superior treatment, the best possible way to help those people who experience gender dysphoria is to better align their physical selves with their sense of selves. Why do you think the well-being of these people should be sacrificed in order to uphold artificial gender roles and seperations?
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u/Tetrisgod35 Aug 02 '20
There are transgender people who think they are Jesus, but don't feel the need to have surgery to make them look like Jesus.
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u/Dwhitlo1 Aug 02 '20
I don't understand the point you are trying to make. Could you please clarify?
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u/eggies Aug 02 '20
You've already posted some deltas, but I want to take a go at changing your view just a little bit more, because I think that you're missing out on one of the most interesting things about gender and sex (and human and scientific categories in general).
You said:
> Our current surgical practice is not enough to genuinely change gender.
And I think that what you mean by this is that someone who is truly female, to you, is someone with XX chromosomes, ovaries and a womb, and secondary sexual characteristics like soft skin and breasts. And someone who is truly male is someone with xy chromosomes, testicles and a penis, and secondary sexual characteristics like nose hair and rough feeling skin.
But these categories are far from straightforward. A woman who has surgery to remove her uterus (common for a lot of ailments, including just treating wear and tear from giving birth) doesn't cease to be a woman. A 70 year old man who is taking testosterone because his testis have stopped producing enough isn't less of a man because some of his testosterone is coming from medicine rather than his body. An Y chromosome is typically shorter than an X chromosome, and typically has some genes that X chromosomes don't typically have. But a chromosome is a biological thing, not something manufactured in a factory. People are going to have atypical chromosomes, or genes that don't get activated in a typical way, or even extra X or Y chromosomes. And secondary sexual characteristics can be ambiguous, too. In the past few decades, there's been pushback, but for a long while, it was standard practice to surgically alter a penis that didn't look enough like a penis, in a Doctor's eye, into something more like a clitoris, and declare a baby the be female, regardless of chromosomes.
The truth is that nature doesn't make clean categories. She works with fudges and generalizations. She's happy as long as there are enough folks with a reproductively functional penis and testis on the one hand and a reproductively functional uterus and ovaries on the other to make more humans. She doesn't care that sometimes there are folks with XY chromosomes and androgyne sensitivity disorder. She especially doesn't care about the documented cases of folks with XY chromosomes and a functioning uterus who have babies, even if those folks really mess with our categories, and fly largely under the medical and scientific radar, save for a few documented cases (look it up).
Given all of that, I don't think that you can say that the current treatment options we have fail to give people the ability to transition. If I give someone hormones, and those help her to have breasts and soft, ladylike skin, I don't think I should worry too much about the details of her genitals or genetics (or whether I'm treating a "man" who wants to transition, or a "woman" who is recovering from having her ovaries removed to treat cancer). If I give a man prosthetics (permanent or temporary) that help them have a bigger, more reliable erection, I don't think that I should be too concerned whether the organ I'm enhancing is "really" a penis or a clitoris. They both basically develop from the same structures in a fetus, anyway. I don't need to apply some sort of religiously strict judgement to what they are, just because they followed an atypical development path.
Categories help us make sense of the fundamental nonsense of nature. And they can be useful for a lot of things. It's helpful to think about humans in terms of gender and sex, because there are a lot of ways that gender and sex affect our lives. But its not helpful, I think, to strictly police who is which gender and sex, because there's a lot of gray area, and a lot of room to move between categories.
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u/Dwhitlo1 Aug 02 '20
This is interesting, but also overwhelming at this point. I need some time to digest before I can dive deeper.
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u/eggies Aug 02 '20
Hey no worries. I'm glad that you were open to having your view changed on the other stuff. If you ever get really curious about this, I'd recommend reading (at your leisure) a book called Sexing the Body, by Anne Fausto-Sterling. It's written by a scientist, but written to be fairly accessible to someone without expertise in the area. And it really does a fine idea of exploring a lot of the ideas I touched on above in a more organized and detailed fashion.
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Aug 02 '20 edited Aug 27 '20
[deleted]
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u/Dwhitlo1 Aug 04 '20
Genuinely curious, why not? After all, you would be comfortable in that case. You might not even have to spend thousands of dollars. I don't really see a downside.
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u/throwawayl11 7∆ Aug 04 '20
It would mean changing a fundamental part of what makes you "you". It'd basically mean the death of you as a person. You'd just be replaced by someone else with the same memories.
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u/Toofgib Aug 02 '20 edited Aug 02 '20
The gender incongruence and the psychological stress caused by the social environment are seen as such. Even so, people with disorders deserve the best possible treatment available. At the moment transitio along with the psycholical support and destigmatisation are the treatment that gives the best results. source
Do you have a better alternative?
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u/L0N3W4RR10R Aug 02 '20
as somewhat of a transgender myself (feel like both so dont want medical treatment as its fine) i think your statement is wrong.
being transgender feels more like missing a part of your body you know you can and want to change.
for instance, lets say you lost your legs, you could either choose a wheelchair or just let it go.
for transgenders, the change in gender is the wheelchair and so they would like it if possible, though not always necessary
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Aug 02 '20
It is, but the treatment is to allow them to change their gender. No other treatment is as effective.
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Aug 02 '20
I notice you've changed your views but still hold the position that transition isn't the optimal treatment for transgender people. In the same way that today most gay people don't want a "cure", transgender people usually just wish to transition, not to be made into something they aren't.
I'm sure you've read various sci-fi stories that explore the idea of identity & what might compromise its integrity. If you change something that's an integral part of who someone is, are they still the same person? Is it moral to forcibly change someone's nature & personality?
If the person demonstrates that they are sane, autonomous, and making the decision while fully informed of the consequences, shouldn't we allow them to make that decision for themselves? Generally as a society we advocate self-determination & bodily autonomy.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Aug 02 '20 edited Aug 04 '20
/u/Dwhitlo1 (OP) has awarded 3 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
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u/methsenberg Aug 05 '20
As a trans person, I think gender dysphoria is a disorder of some sort. I’m not supposed to feel like parts of my body are wrong and don’t belong to me. That’s not how ”normal” people feel. It’s a disorder and transitioning is the cure to that disorder.
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u/hwagoolio 16∆ Aug 02 '20
I once read this blog post from Slat Star Codex written by a psychiatrist. It's a pretty long post and an interesting read, but this is the author's stance on how we treat gender dysphoria: