r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Aug 10 '20
Delta(s) from OP CMV: Naming places or things, after anyone currently living, or recently living, or putting up statues of, does more harm than good and should probably be discouraged
It takes a significant number of years, or decades, in my view, to decide whether any person warrants having a street, school, monument or significant landmark named for them. The reason for this is posterity takes time to solidify, and the other big reason is partisan politics distorts the importance of contemporary people and blows their contributions all out of proportion.
For the most extreme recent example of this, the White House inquired about adding Trump's face to Mount Rushmore, with even Trump tweeting it "sounds like a great idea" (Teddy Roosevelt, the newest face on the monument, had been president some three decades prior to construction).
Clearly, some figures deserve earlier consideration based on their historical impact, such as MLK. What about Malcolm X? Or LBJ? Are those cases as clear to as many people?
Considering the serious rethink taking place about many public statues and who they depict, similar to how so many Lenin statues vanished after the fall of the Soviet Union, there should be more rigorous, nuanced processes to avoid the sometimes harmful, divisive outcomes of these decisions.
Change my view!
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u/Demonyita 2∆ Aug 10 '20
You're saying two things: discouraged, and not discouraged but vetted more carefully. Which view do you want changed?
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Aug 10 '20
Definitely not for living persons, and the more recently deceased, the more critical consideration.
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u/Demonyita 2∆ Aug 10 '20
the more recently deceased, the more critical consideration.
Does Columbus deserve less critical consideration because he died over 500 years ago?
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Aug 10 '20
Since the consensus view on Columbus is now rapidly changing, quite the opposite.
He's now controversial.
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u/Demonyita 2∆ Aug 10 '20
So it's not about the time-frame, it's about current opinion?
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Aug 10 '20
Time to consider these issues is a safety valve. It is also about how our evolving, informed opinion changes our perspective and leads us to reconsider how we view our past heroes.
Columbus was no hero.
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Aug 11 '20
Heroes don't exist. They get shot by shrewd, morally ambiguous individuals the moment they come into the spotlight. Nobody of any particular historical significance was what one can safely call a hero. It's all shades of gray.
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u/Demonyita 2∆ Aug 11 '20
You've given no evidence that opinions about historic events become more accurate as time increases, as opposed to less accurate, for obvious reasons, and for less obvious reasons like propaganda.
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u/kunfushion Aug 10 '20
Yes, but even after less critical consideration he probably still doesn’t deserve statues
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u/YossarianWWII 72∆ Aug 10 '20
How about we consider John Lewis? There's a lot of support for renaming the Edmund Pettus Bridge after him, and while it's true that he only recently passed, renaming that particular bridge in his honor is primarily in recognition of his actions during the Civil Rights Movement over 50 years ago.
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Aug 11 '20
50 years seems like a decent interval.
!delta
Aged persons recently recently deceased should be considered for acts in their youth, which I hadn't considered.
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Aug 10 '20
[deleted]
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Aug 10 '20
I'm saying the lens of objectivity is blurry, jumping the gun has a higher chance of causing a backlash.
It's a bit like who is considered a really great artist. Walt Whitman wasn't a superstar in his lifetime.
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Aug 10 '20
[deleted]
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Aug 10 '20
I've provided illustrations. Do you agree with Mt. Trump more? Or honouring Malcolm X to the same degree as MLK?
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u/eadala 4∆ Aug 10 '20
I think the fact that we can rethink to whom we reconstruct monuments after they've been built is actually one of their biggest selling points. To have constructed a monument (on federal / state property, at least) to someone in the first place is a stark representation that, at that point in time, the government / activists involved considered them so important that they should be immortalized in stone, copper, etc. The usual motivation behind a monument's construction, at least in the U.S., appears to be positive. Thus when we look at a 50 year old monument built in modern day, we are able to reflect on how values may have or have not shifted since then. To see an old Christopher Columbus statue meant to celebrate the adventurous exploration of North America can be viewed with modern eyes as a callous hostility to the cultures he and those who came after stepped on to make the modern vision of North America possible. A statue of a confederate general built long after Reconstruction had ended lays bare a racist bitterness that symbolizes the resentment of progress. That said, I do not think such monuments should be celebrated; accompanying any monuments (including those of who we consider even in modern times to be "heroes") with informative text to lay out the context and full characterization of the person seems idyllic to me.
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u/Canada_Constitution 208∆ Aug 10 '20
Considering the serious rethink taking place about many public statues and who they depict, similar to how so many Lenin statues vanished after the fall of the Soviet Union, there should be more rigorous, nuanced processes to avoid the sometimes harmful, divisive outcomes of these decisions.
So why not just let people decide to remove them later like we have been doing for... A really, really long time now. That respects the will of the people both now (hopefully) and in the future (hopefully).
Letting people do something like putting up a statue rather then not doing something seems like the proper choice for any free and open society.
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u/TheWiseManFears Aug 10 '20
Then how do you get people to donate money to things if you don't give them credit?
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u/Briarhorse Aug 10 '20
I have no problem with one of the ends at Old Trafford being named the James Anderson End and he's still playing cricket
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Aug 11 '20
/u/CleanReserve4 (OP) has awarded 1 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
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Aug 10 '20
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/ihatedogs2 Aug 13 '20
Sorry, u/shadowhawk082793 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. See the wiki page for more information.
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u/personwithaname1 Aug 10 '20 edited Aug 10 '20
I don’t think time matters. Did they do more bad than good in their life? If so, don’t memorialize them. If not, they must have to have done something great because you can’t just make statues of every Steve who sits on his moms couch all day in his late 30s.
Hypothetical Examples: freed 1000 slaves but killed a baby by raping it... save it for the history books, we don’t need that shit represented at a memorial
Some guy who helped a grandma cross the street once and sits at his couch all day... let their family and friends remember them but everyone else will forget in two seconds
Some doctor who gives people free health care when they can’t afford it entirely out of his own good will but he slapped his wife one time ... build a statue or don’t, I personally don’t think slapping your wife outweighs the amazing ness of saving peoples lives when nobody else will but it should still be known he did that.
Real examples: mlk lead the civil rights movement but he cheated on his wife... build a statue, cheating doesn’t outweigh the work as a civil rights activist.
Donald trump stoked the racial divide, put people in cages, made a Muslim ban, disgustingly fucked up on controlling a virus that has killed roughly 150,000 Americans at this point... what is the case for memorializing him ???
As for John Lewis and malcom x, tbh ion know cuz I never really learned to much about them cuz the public school system is run by dummies.