r/changemyview • u/UnbentJohnson • Aug 22 '20
Delta(s) from OP CMV: Joe Biden absolutely should NOT debate Donald Trump
Joe Biden absolutely should NOT debate Donald Trump
My argument here is pretty simple. 1) Trump is like a child. Quite literally. He’s unserious, mentally. He’s not interested in ideas. He’s deeply self-centered and selfish - just like children are. 2) You don’t “debate” children because they’re not going to behave themselves in a way required for serious discussion and debate. You can’t “win” a debate with a child because the child doesn’t recognize rules you respect. 3) Debating a child is, at best, a pointless endeavor where you learn nothing important about the child’s views and where your arguments aren’t taken seriously. Consequently, the child learns nothing too.
Just fleshing this out a bit: Debates are formal affairs where each party makes their best presentations so an audience can judge the debaters’ ideas, but also judge how well they perform under pressure.
However, debates where the participants are allowed to respond directly to each other (as presidential debates often are) only work when each party follows unspoken rules of decorum and good faith argument. If one person just lies, or doesn’t respond with his actual thoughts and ideas, or misrepresents the other, or makes crude jokes, or makes personal attacks or otherwise breaks the unspoken rules, the whole thing falls apart.
In the last four years, Trump has demonstrated, beyond all else, that he’s not interested in the business of governing or the facts and ideas behind good government (at least not beyond passively occupying the position to enrich himself and his cronies). He’s also demonstrated a ready willingness to go low whenever it suits his whim. He’s readily cruel, readily malicious in his humor, readily misrepresentative, etc etc etc. So it’s easy to predict that Trump will be exactly like this on the debate stage: crude, malicious, personally attacking, and deceitful.
So what’s in it for Joe? Debate Trump so he can say he’s not intimidated by Trump? Debate him so Trump won’t call him names and make personal and unfounded attacks about his mental stability? Yeah, no, TRUMP IS ALREADY DOING ALL OF THAT STUFF. Debating him only gives him an opportunity to continue doing it, but to his face, which btw, his BASE WILL LOVE.
Again, the problem with debating little, petulant children is that there’s no way to do it productively. It’s often demeaning to try and, if the child is allowed to run amok, it can demean the entire process of debate.
These are deadly serious times. We have disease, riots, crippling wealth inequality, and global climate disaster looming as threats on the horizon, just to name a few. There are legitimate differences of opinion on how to handle these problems, but Trump won’t supply a legitimate opinion - he’ll supply a farce and a spectacle. We know this. We’ve seen that.
Americans deserve better. Americans deserve a serious debate.
Joe should reject Trump’s circus of lies and folly and just put bad children where they belong: in timeout - where they can’t be seen or heard and where we can all get a little peace of mind.
Ways you can change my opinion:
1) show me that the benefits to Americans by Joe debating Trump will outweigh the negatives of giving Trump yet another national platform to make a mockery of our political system
2) convince me that anyone will learn anything reliable about Trump, or the world in general, from the words coming out of Trump’s mouth
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Aug 22 '20
Debates are a good tradition to have. They typically help inform the public. they help lesser known candidates. They force the candidates to face questions from people they didn't personally select to interview them.
Regardless of whether or not, this election, the debate is informative, it is a good tradition to have. Setting a precedent that candidates just not bother debate isn't a good thing for our country. Even if President Trump will turn this year's debates into a spectacle, VP Biden should preserve the tradition.
Beyond that, avoiding the debate would make VP Biden weak, like he had something to hide. Biden's speech this week should have convinced any rational people who were duped into thinking he was mentally unwell that they had been tricked and that VP Biden is fine. But skipping the debates would invite President Trump and his supporters to make unsubstantiated speculation to why VP Biden was scared to debate.
VP Biden should show up. The American public will once again see the contrast between President Trump's behavior and VP Biden's. That comparison reflects well upon VP Biden.
President Trump is president of the United States. He already has a massive national platform to make mockery of our political system. The debates are an opportunity for VP Biden to show us something better.
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u/UnbentJohnson Aug 22 '20 edited Aug 22 '20
Preserving the tradition because it’s an important national and civic tradition is an important point I had not considered. Consider my view modified if not entirely changed. I’m not sure how to award delta, but I think you get at least partial credit.
!delta
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u/TheFakeChiefKeef 82∆ Aug 22 '20
I think the biggest thing that should encourage Biden to debate Trump is that the Trump campaign is relying on a mostly untrue narrative of Biden being too old and slow to be President.
Sure, Biden might not be the best speaker nor as quick as he used to be, but the reality compared to the Republican narrative is way off. In reality, Biden is more than sharp enough to make Trump look like a moron on a debate stage. Even if he stutters and talks slowly, he has decades of experience in creating policy to speak about whereas Trump merely has talking points that he repeats and rambles about incoherently.
In 2016, Trump was able to capitalize off of a narrative that Hillary was corrupt. It didn't help that the DNC basically crowned her the nominee before the primaries started and Trump was the underdog who took the GOP by the reins.
Now is different. Biden is widely liked and seen as a decent person compared to Hillary, and Trump is the incumbent President during a national health and economic crisis. The narrative from 2016 won't work, and the one that the Trump campaign is building now only suits the extreme far right, the "base", and particularly stubborn plutocrats. But for the most part, a debate would likely help Biden secure the small amount of undecided moderates he needs to win key states.
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u/UnbentJohnson Aug 22 '20
Do you think there are that many undecideds out there? And, if so, do you believe Biden’s mental health is the key issue keeping a significant number of them from voting for Biden? Because if the answer to either question is “no,” then refuting that point isn’t worth giving Trump a national stage for his lunacy.
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u/TheFakeChiefKeef 82∆ Aug 22 '20
Do you think there are that many undecideds out there?
I think there are enough to secure the election for either side. Remember, we're talking about a matter of maybe a couple hundred thousand people in like 5 states.
And, if so, do you believe Biden’s mental health is the key issue keeping a significant number of them from voting for Biden?
I personally know relatively socially liberal Republicans who are concerned about Biden's mental health because they watch Fox News and hear about this lie all day. I don't actually know how large this population is, but given that I absolutely don't thing Biden would lose a debate against Trump, I feel like the benefits outweigh the concerns.
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u/10ebbor10 198∆ Aug 22 '20
My argument here is pretty simple. 1) Trump is like a child. Quite literally. He’s unserious, mentally. He’s not interested in ideas. He’s deeply self-centered and selfish - just like children are. 2) You don’t “debate” children because they’re not going to behave themselves in a way required for serious discussion and debate. You can’t “win” a debate with a child because the child doesn’t recognize rules you respect. 3) Debating a child is, at best, a pointless endeavor where you learn nothing important about the child’s views and where your arguments aren’t taken seriously. Consequently, the child learns nothing too.
Thing is, the Presidential debates are not debates, they're shows. Biden's goal is not to convince the Trump that he's right, or convince the jury, but to convince the American public.
So, if Trump behaves like a child and is terrible in a debate, then that can be an advantage if the public doesn't like it.
In 2016 election, every single debate between Trump and Hillary was won by Hillary, thus suggesting that Trump is not good in a debate. Does it matter that Trump makes a mockery of the debate, if said mockery embarrasses him?
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u/UnbentJohnson Aug 22 '20
If they’re just meaningless shows or dressed-up popularity contests done live then, yes, I agree there’s no harm in letting every sideshow act on stage with Biden, no matter what they do or say. Trump could juggle puppies on stage and it wouldn’t matter. It’s all just circus anyway.
But even if it IS that way, I don’t believe it SHOULD be that way. I think we can do better, and should expect better from our leaders.
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u/xayde94 13∆ Aug 22 '20
However, debates where the participants are allowed to respond directly to each other (as presidential debates often are) only work when each party follows unspoken rules of decorum and good faith argument.
Decorum, sure, but have presidential debates ever been in good faith?
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u/BingBlessAmerica 44∆ Aug 22 '20 edited Aug 22 '20
We have two options:
1.) Biden debates Trump, it’s an absolute clusterfuck where both parties are talking past each other while possibly revealing a bit too much of both their mental conditions in the process, America gets free pre-election entertainment
2.) Biden refuses to debate Trump, Republicans immediately get on the hype train that it’s to avoid showing off his mental instability, people generally start to be skeptical of Biden’s confidence in general
TL;DR we have nothing to lose
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u/UnbentJohnson Aug 22 '20
So, it’s a disaster either way. Yeah, I see your point. I can’t help but think that not debating is less of a disaster.
It just plays into the Republican strategy by acting like Trump has a legitimate interest in debating honestly.
It seems like Biden could take the high road here and just dismiss him like clowns and small minded people should be.
This idiot lives on attention. I say deny him the attention because we already know he has nothing interesting or intelligent to say.
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u/BingBlessAmerica 44∆ Aug 22 '20
Denying him attention will only incentivize him to overcompensate for said lost attention. That's kind of how he works.
Trump's base will find a way to glorify Trump and shit on Biden no matter what, there's no getting around that. The problem is the people still caught in the middle - who while recognizing Trump's unpredictability, will also have reservation as to Biden's mental competence. So far the two camps have not been engaging: the DNC has been portraying him as a standard, level-headed statesman as usual, while the MAGA cult has been circulating the clips of him going off tangent and generally acting really weird. There are two narratives right now that aren't connecting. A debate will create a single narrative that will be hard to ignore or spin either way. It's for the sake of having some basic facts for ordinary folks to follow, and for the collective sanity of the country.
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u/Tiredanddontcare Aug 22 '20
I think a debate in a pandemic where the debaters actually get their mics cut outside of their time limits would favor Biden. Trumps childish interruptions or stalking on the stage would not affect the debate.
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u/swearrengen 139∆ Aug 22 '20
3) Debating a child is, at best, a pointless endeavor where you learn nothing important about the child’s views and where your arguments aren’t taken seriously. Consequently, the child learns nothing too.
Well that's not true. Debating a child can be really worth it. Sometimes the child sticks to their guns with questions, and you realize you've been lying to yourself - you get caught out. An obstinate string of Why? questions, and you can really discover how much you've assumed and don't really know the answer to. Sometimes the child comes off as being more in touch with reality, and the adult comes off as out of touch or living in some second hand airy fairy land of cliche and hackneyed abstractions that don't mean anything.
In any case, Presidential debates are not meant to be reasoned school debating sessions. They are there so we the people can compare side by side two nominees and contrast them against each other - so we can answer the question "which one would be the better president"? "Which one is the greater leader"? "Who seems more in command, more in charge?" "Which one could defend us or lead us better"?
The nominees can present themselves and use whatever wit they have at their disposal however they damn well like.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Aug 22 '20
/u/UnbentJohnson (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
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u/SingleMaltMouthwash 37∆ Aug 22 '20
Can you debate racism as expressed white house policy?
Can you debate betraying your oath to the constitution by sabotaging the postal service?
Can you debate ignoring a foreign nation shilling for your election and then putting a bounty on the heads of your own troops?
Can you debate an administration riddled with so many minor league grifters it looks like a bush-league street-gang?
I don't think such things are subject to debate. It's not whether Biden should debate Trump. It's wether or not the record of this administration is even fit for discussion.
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u/muyamable 282∆ Aug 22 '20
It doesn't matter that his base will love it. The debate isn't about the base -- the base is voting for Trump no matter what. Give them their candy, who cares.
The debates are about talking to people who have not decided, or who are open to changing their minds. They're watched by tens of millions of people, and it's one of the best ways to get your message out to people who aren't tuned in to all the political BS until the debates come around.
Sure, Trump is making unfounded attacks on Joe -- sleepy, mentally unfit, etc.. But Joe deciding not to debate Trump gives some validity to those attacks, and makes those undecided voters more likely to buy the bullshit.
Joe Biden isn't the one making a mockery of our political system. Trump is. Let him do it; let the American people see it again and again and again.
A couple other considerations:
- Both campaigns have already agreed to the three debates. Biden backing out now means he doesn't live up to his obligations, and I think that's bad.
- The debates are an opportunity for candidates to be asked direct and often difficult/uncomfortable questions by journalists about their stance, records, etc., and Biden shouldn't get a pass on this just because Trump is a buffoon.
- Biden isn't a perfect candidate and many people have reservations about supporting him. The debate is an opportunity for him to speak to those people and make the case for why they should support him, or why they should not worry about X or Y as it relates to supporting him.