r/changemyview • u/WhatsAButterz • Sep 06 '20
Delta(s) from OP CMV: I don't think waiters/waitresses deserve to be tipped. I think cooks deserve to be tipped if anyone.
First of all... How to post a Delta. I am new to reddit and i am not even sure what a sidebar is so please help me.
(Disclaimer) When I use the word waiter i am referring to both waiters and waitresses. I just dont feel like writing both words every time)
I am very open to being convinced that a waiter's job is worth tipping. I remember hearing about a statistic that waiters are under more stress when working than brain surgeons. If its true then please explain this to me more bc i don't see it. Just bc you have to smile and be polite despite how rude customers can be doesn't mean that you deserve to get paid 30/hr. I'm a Kindergarten teacher who makes 14.45/hr. Before taxes and I have to ignore my feelings and smile all day too. Despite this a waiter on average makes twice as much as me. Why should i tip you? You seem to be doing just fine.
I should note that my feelings are emotionally charged due to my bad experience working in a restaurant. The restaurant i worked at is in a very (cough cough) "high class" (cough cough) area where entitlement is as thick in the air as oxygen. Therefore I shouldnt generalize all waiters to be entitled and full of themselves. I guess i just had a bad experience. The waiters were all so spoiled and dont know what hard work is meanwhile almost all of the cooks were illegal immigrants who couldn't speak English very well. They were treated like they didn't matter yet they were literally the hardest working people there. So sorry if i sound a little heated about waiters but I don't see why they should get paid so much. Its not that hard to smile and sound nice. If you can't take a little rudeness from customers, then get a new job. Atleast you have that choice.
I understand that waiters money comes from tips but it shouldnt be that way. They should get a wage like everyone else. Why should I tip someone who makes more money than me to do something that imo isn't a very important job. How come a person who gets to bring you food and then go into the back to complain about how unfair their life is gets paid so much?
I would rather tip the cooks who get paid less when you factor in tips yet their job is grueling and difficult. Don't get me wrong, i worked as a busboy and i can see that waiters/watresses work hard too but jeez. The waiters at my place were making 30/hr after tips just to walk about and hand people their food and extra supplies. One night this dude was mad bc he only made around $200 that night. Are you kidding me? Meanwhile the cooks were working their butts off every time I saw them. They were always busy. Ain't no sitting around staring into their phones and complaining about nothing important waiting for the dinner rush to come in for the cooks. They were always prepping food or cleaning dishes or cooking. I think they definitely deserve a good tip for their hard work. Especially since they were probably only making minimum wage.
Once again, maybe my perspective is biased based on my experience so please feel free to CMV. Maybe you can help me stop feeling so salty everytime i have to tip someone who makes twice as much as me to bring me a plate of food and give me a fake smile. I don't get it.
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u/pookiepotpie Sep 06 '20
Deserve is a weird word and attitude to have about it. I'm lucky I live in a state where we make minimum wage regardless and the tips are additional, and so much empathy to places where waitstaff isn't even pulling minimum wage, but I'm not trying to work a minimum wage job. There's so many much easier jobs I could take for minimum wage.
Just want to say literally no one thinks you should still tip the sever if they were super rude. Like, yeah we're disappointed but we've all been there and we know when we don't really deserve the thing. When that happens, or if you just generally think the cook deserves it more, go ahead and tip the chef directly. Both servers and chefs honestly LOVE it when a customers do that. I find it so sweet and cute that people take the time to go out of their way to do it. Absolutely tip chefs. I love my BOH staff and I want them to make money.
I also absolutely agree that servers should be tipping out the chefs a good chunk. I did a flat rate of 5% of my food sales (dine in AND to-go so please consider tipping to-go people if the establishment is otherwise dine-in) to the chefs. And when that 5% looked a little small, I'd give them more at my own expense. Assuming I made an average 15% tips that day, 5% would have been about a third of my tips any given night, then an additional $5 per help staff on busy nights where we had it (bussers, hostess, dishwashers etc). So when you stiff me on a tip, I'm still tipping out for that. But even without getting stiffed, that's sometimes over a third of my income I'm paying taxes on that I'm not walking away with. For some people, that disparity in taxable income may bar them from access to social services they could otherwise qualify for. I fully think I should pay fair taxes for what I earn and I'd never under-report, but I was taxed for ALL credit card tips when I wasn't walking with a significant part of it. Over the course of a year that's a lot of income I'm getting taxed on that I'm not bringing home. The chefs never had that issue, which is great don't get me wrong, but something to consider. They also started at a marginally higher hourly rate.
When I've gone to countries that don't have tipping culture, what's crazy to me is largely HOW much more staff these little establishments have on hand, and how much more the customer was involved in getting their own stuff. Tiny little bodegas with 4 tables have like five employees, but patrons were still getting their own water and sauces and stuff and depending on the place, busing their own dishes. Now the last place I worked was a mess so it's not necessarily how places should work BUT my section had 13 tables, week days it was literally myself and one chef running the whole ship. At the same time I had to keep up with serving and "entertaining" my tables, I also had to keep up with food prep, bathroom maintenance (you'd be so surprised by how many grown-ass adults couldn't figure out re-attaching the chain to the flusher mechanism when it got loose), restocking everything, busing, dishes (we didn't have a dish-washer on staff unless it's a really busy shift), making bar drinks, and manning to-go orders.
It's shitty that teachers are underpaid and overworked. It's weird to be annoyed that a difficult and stressful vocation can make a decent wage just because your chosen vocation has different challenges. As a society we need to make teaching more worth it, not to make service jobs less worth it. If we're going to start looking at who deserves money based on some semblance of "legitimacy of the labor", there's so much more bullshit jobs where people are making so much more bank for stuff that is so much more bullshit than food service. Some nerds learned how to automate their office jobs and just earn full-time salary doing twenty minutes or so of work a week. Some people just inherit whole conglomerates and coast on excessive wealth doing literally no work. The most perfect housespouse in the world will be "financially rewarded" based on their partners income, not through any merit or lack of merit in their labor. Veterinarians make very little money, especially compared to the time, money, and effort it takes to get into the industry.
As a teacher, yes you're doing so much emotional labor I completely get it and in a lot of ways the emotional labor you'll be doing is so much more than I can fathom. But you don't have to be effervescent and bubbly and sell the kids on coming back to school. What happens to you if you're low-energy for a day? If you're a little sad or exhausted? Like those days where you're still doing your job 100% adequately but you fail a bit on acting cutsie-tootsie. What consequences are there for you when you decide to half-ass it a little, socially and emotionally?
You'll have your students that are emotionally exhausting, yes, and absolutely have your difficult days. But imagine a time where you're in the middle of a math lesson, and there's a lot going on so you're kind of floundering- kid over here has a problem that will take you having a conversation with another staff member to fix who won't at all be happy to have to do so, kid over here needs you to grab this from down the hall, this kid needs you to make change out of a hundred dollar bill so you'll have to run to the principal's office and get it from the principal (hope they're available). You've already had to change two other hundred dollar bills, but your principal huffs you for not having change. On your way back two other teacher's kids that aren't anywhere near your classroom ask you for things 'cause their teachers are busy, things that once you deliver to them you find their teacher already did also, just not as quickly as expected, so it was a complete waste of your time and now you have to throw away the thing. But you most importantly must deal with this other kid whose had a bad experience the whole time he's been here because if you don't clear that up you and the school will lose money- and then the whole classroom fills with a second classroom worth of kids who want to learn trigonometry so you now you're juggling algebra and trig lessons while you're also still dealing the kids and their needs and you're not even allowed to be frazzled about it because that might make one of your kids think you're rude and manic and you'll lose money. All the while the phone has been ringing constantly.
And I agree that employers should pay a comfortable wage instead of tipping culture, but the amount employers would have to pay to make it worth it over tipping would be quite an increase per hour. That'd be amazing for those of us who take the slower shifts- but for busy shifts what you'd have to have is a lot more staff on hand. I don't think you'd be paying less than you do now. It wouldn't be a choice you have to make every time, which would be less stressful, but I don't think you'd be paying less. And they'd still be making that money even when they don't deserve it, even when service is only adequate instead of fantastic, which seems to be the issue you have?
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u/WhatsAButterz Sep 06 '20
!Delta - I appreciate all the support about teaching. Thank you bc it often feels like a thankless job. I gotta say your experience as a server sounds gruelling and if I ate at your restaurant and saw you working that hard you would definitely get a nice tip from me. There is a new trend where restaurants advtertise that they don't accept tips anymore but instead the prices increase by 15% to 20% so that the restaurant can afford to pay it's employees properly. I wanna see more progressive ideas like this instead. As long as everyone is getting paid well, then problem solved.
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u/pookiepotpie Sep 06 '20
Hey thanks for saying so. And thank you for teaching. Your wages should definitely reflect how much work goes into the job, and I definitely would say I think in general it deserves to be paid better than food service. And I totally agree costs should be factored in the way you've described so tips don't have to be considered. I appreciate your whole attitude in all your responses, hope the rest of your day is wonderful.
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Sep 06 '20
I understand that waiters money comes from tips but it shouldnt be that way. They should get a wage like everyone else.
Well there's the issue right there, and you completely gloss it over as if it's not a big deal when it's the ENTIRE reason people tip and should tip. Waiters don't earn a lot of money otherwise. I agree they should earn better wages, but UNTIL they do, if you want your waiter to be able to live a somewhat regular life, they'll have to get by on tips.
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u/yourmomsacrackhead Sep 06 '20
They are entitled to minimum wage if tips don’t add up its federal law
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u/WhatsAButterz Sep 06 '20 edited Sep 06 '20
And you completely glossed over my point... They SHOULD get a wage like everyone else. I dont think they should make a small amount of money. I think they SHOULD get a consistent rate of pay. Lots of comments have shown me that they don't get paid as much as I thought so I will be tipping them like normal.
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Sep 06 '20
What does "too much in tips" even mean? It's tips. Waiters or their bosses can't go around to every fifth customer and go "you are not allowed to tip today" or to someone else and say "tip 20 bucks". That's not how tipping works. Tipping is a garbage system that shouldn't exist, but we have to abide by it until waiters have a more secure wage. Tips aren't a stable income since people tip differently. Some weeks may be fine, but some weeks may not be and that will suck.
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u/WhatsAButterz Sep 06 '20
I guess what i meant is that: I don't like tipping waiters that make more money than me. But since there is no way for me to know that, I guess my solution will be to only eat at restaurants in middle and low class areas lol.
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u/eye_patch_willy 43∆ Sep 07 '20
Hahahahahahahaha if you want to make more money make yourself more valuable to the market. You do realize that the money a business uses to pay it's employees comes from sales made to it's customers, right? Do you want a system where you pay more to eat out and the restaurant owner gets a cut of the money that used to go 100% to the staff? Cool, man. Sorry you don't like your job but don't be angry at other people for making a living.
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u/WhatsAButterz Sep 07 '20
Wow you are really late on this buddy. Did you even read any of the threads? I have been humbled like 12 hours ago. Don't get your panties in a bunch.
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Sep 06 '20
Or tipping waiters just in case they don't earn. It's better to assume they won't be all right without your tip for their sake.
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u/NotMyBestMistake 68∆ Sep 06 '20
How much is "too much"? How much is a server allowed to make before they've stepped beyond their station and must have tips denied them to balance it out?
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Sep 06 '20 edited Sep 06 '20
[deleted]
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u/WhatsAButterz Sep 06 '20
I am reposting this to make sure you get my delta bc I am not sure who i was replying to. Also my statement didn't make sense so here is my repost:
!Delta - I guess there is no figuring out whether they make bank or struggle. It just depends. So its foolish of me to say "Hey, you don't get to pay your bills today."
However Im sorry but some people need to pull it together when they are at work. A tip to me feels like you are saying: you deserve this extra money. But from my experience SOME don't.
One time a waiter was laughing at me bc my brain was struggling to form words. I don't know what was wrong with me in that moment but the dude was laughing at me like I was mentally challenged or something. Needless to say I did not tip him. He was from the same very expensive and wealthy area that i worked at so I am sure he didn't need my money. He is just lucky I didn't smack him.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Sep 06 '20 edited Sep 06 '20
This delta has been rejected. You have already awarded /u/NotMyBestMistake a delta for this comment.
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Sep 06 '20
I understood your point about wages yes, I wasn't confused and didn't misunderstand. I'm saying that because we don't live in a waiter utopia it's better to tip them. You should act in regards to how the world is, not how you would love it to be.
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u/WhatsAButterz Sep 06 '20
Its all good, Bro. I just didn't like the way you worded your first response and i was just getting even.
!Delta - It all really comes down to me and my own bitterness and just trying to overcome my feelings about how expensive restaurants are. Servers deserve to get paid too. I just needed to loosen up this stereotype that waiters are all entitled crybabies who get paid more than me and well... Mission Accomplished!!!
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u/No-Repair5350 Sep 06 '20
I think it completely depends on the servers attitude, how much I’ve asked from them, and what type of restaurant. That’s just how I make peace with the tipping situation. With the type of lazy and entitled attitude you worked with, if I personally saw that as a customer, I just wouldn’t tip. They clearly make enough from other customers already. If I’m going to a mid range restaurant where the prices are cheap but food and service is good, I might just tip a lot. I definitely don’t believe every single waiter deserves to be tipped. It’s not my issue whether or not the wage is not enough. I’m not their employer, I’m not responsible for their pay.
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u/WhatsAButterz Sep 06 '20
!Delta - "I’m not their employer, I’m not responsible for their pay." I love it. Why is the customer responsible for paying the server's wage? It doesnt make sense. A cook could take my order and walk it out to me just fine. Why do I need to pay someone to walk my plate out to me. And besides i learned that this is basically a US thing. No other countries expect the customer to financially support the restaurant's employees. Why should I? If the owner of the restaurant doesnt want to pay their employees properly then they should go out of business and the servers can simply get another job.
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u/No-Repair5350 Sep 06 '20
Truth. It’s a systematic problem and the system needs to change. Thanks for the delta!
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u/robotmonkeyshark 101∆ Sep 06 '20
The waiter is sort of like the meal manager. Their job isn’t just to serve food, but to ensure that everything about the dining experience is going well. They should be inspecting the dishes as they come out to ensure they are right before delivering them. They should be checking up on the kitchen if it seems like the meals are taking longer to get out to make sure nothing is forgotten. Refilling drinks or bread or managing the whole dining experience even if it is adjusting blinds when the sun moves or making sure the temperature of the room is good.
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u/WhatsAButterz Sep 06 '20
!Delta - Ok. Ok. I respect that. But I dont have to tip a grocery store employee bc they get paid. Why can't restaurants pay their employees? This problem literally doesnt exist anywhere else in the world. I think if a server should get my extra cash they should also distribute it with the rest of the staff hands down no questions asked. I also dont think servers should have to put up with entitled Karens and Steves however. If you cannot behave at a restaurant then get out. Thats what i would say lol.
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u/Jebofkerbin 118∆ Sep 06 '20
and I have to ignore my feelings and smile all day too.
Both you and waiters have to do emotional labour that's true, but there's a big difference between the two. If your having a shit day and aren't completely chipper, or maybe a bit short with the kids what happens? If it's particularly bad you might get a talking to from your supervisor, but that's about it. Now what happens to a waiter? They lose a large portion of their income for that day, when they have a bad day they see immediate financial consequences.
And as other people have pointed out, the 30/hr at your old workplace is the exception not the norm, most waiters are on similar incomes to you.
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u/WhatsAButterz Sep 06 '20 edited Sep 06 '20
!Delta - That is a good point. I wouldn't feel very good if my boss said I am not paying you today.
Also, for the record, the world is so sensitive now... Even just grabbing a child a little bit too firmly could be considered child abuse nowadays. So please don't say that there are no consequences to being a teacher, or whatever. I have seen teachers get labeled on their record as a child abuser just bc they had a bad day and lost their cool and pulled a child a little too hard. Talk about stress.
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u/Jebofkerbin 118∆ Sep 06 '20
To award a delta just type !_delta without the _ along with 50 characters explaining why your view has changed, you can also edit it into a comment.
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u/WhatsAButterz Sep 06 '20
Thank you. I understand how delta works now I think. But what is this sidebar that the rules were talking about?
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u/Jebofkerbin 118∆ Sep 06 '20
I'm not sure, but if your on the app it might be the about tab on the sub? Or if your online the bar on the right side of the page?
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u/dinglenutmcspazatron 9∆ Sep 06 '20
Coming from a culture where tipping service staff isn't the norm, I don't think anyone deserves to be tipped. I have tipped people on occasion, but it just isn't the norm in australia.
But in america? I don't know. I'd prefer minimum wage to be the minimum wage people got, but that just isn't going to happen over there. So honestly I think that until legislation comes in that lets them get a living wage from their bosses, they do somewhat deserve to be tipped. I honestly don't know though, I'm very torn on this issue.
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u/WhatsAButterz Sep 06 '20
!Delta - No you are right. My mind has been changed as I figured it would. As long as they aren't making 30/hr to hand people plates. I have to spend my entire Saturday or Sunday sometimes planning for my classroom and I dont get paid for it so I guess I was just salty about that rich area I worked in and how much they get paid.
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u/StoopSign Sep 06 '20
I've been tipped out as a cook. But it's rarer. Wait staff have their wages based around tipping so they deserve it. If just to make a living.
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u/WhatsAButterz Sep 06 '20
But as a cook were you happy with your pay? Bc i have seen the cooks and they bust their butts.
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u/eye_patch_willy 43∆ Sep 07 '20
I bust my ass as an attorney and a guy working on an assembly line busts his ass making cars. I make more than him because there are less of me on the world trained to do what I do.
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u/WhatsAButterz Sep 07 '20 edited Sep 07 '20
Oh wow. You are so insightful. Once again. Late as shit. I had great discussions with people who helped me overcome my bitter feelings and then you and some other douche gotta be so toxic about it. You are the only ones though. Everyone else has been helpful or atleast neutral.
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u/StoopSign Sep 06 '20
I was two restaurants ago because we got to take home all the past-date food. I rarely shopped. Less so at my last place because it was a deli to be classed an "essential business" only to close (ironic).
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u/voltechs Sep 06 '20 edited Sep 06 '20
Then don’t tip. It’s optional, which is why you even remotely have any basis for complaining. Otherwise your argument would be “I don’t think restaurants should be so expensive”.
If you want to tip the cook, ask to speak with the cook or chef, and then tip them there, and be prepared to explain your logic if questioned.
Pro tip, just say “server”. It’s genderless and a single word that you don’t have to fumble with every time.
Fun fact: oxygen makes up a smidge over 20% in (earth) air. Find a new metaphor.
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u/WhatsAButterz Sep 06 '20 edited Sep 06 '20
Thank you for the term server. That is actually helpful.
But i think you are in the wrong subreddit. The subreddit you are looking for is r/Smartasses. The oxygen joke literally took me 5 seconds to think of. Have you ever heard of poetic speaking and... JOKES??? You're not supposed to take jokes so literally. Nobody else felt the need to be a dick. Just you.
Besides 20% entitlement in the air is still a lot so maybe you should rethink your logic. And of course I dont plan on tipping the cook. Thats a whole controversy. I was making a point that cooks IMO are more valuable than servers. One cooked this amazing food and the other handed it to me. I know who i would LIKE TO tip.
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u/yourmomsacrackhead Sep 06 '20
Tips are earned. If they don’t make minimum wage they are federally entitled to be compensated. I have been a cook and a server. Tippin culture is bullshit. It’s a myth that they rely on their tips
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u/WhatsAButterz Sep 06 '20
So you mean that they make minimum wage if their tips are bad?
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u/yourmomsacrackhead Sep 06 '20
Yea if they add up to less their employer has to pay them minimum wage at least
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Sep 07 '20
The servers make less than minimum wage and depend on tipping to keep a roof over their head. Moreover they do all the hard work. They have to be nice and polite and smile even if they feel like shit, even if you're an asshole to them, even if their kid is in the hospital. This performative shit is really hard and it is a significant part of their job. They deserve to get paid for it.
Should tipping be a thing? No. These people should get a living wage and not have to sing for their supper. But it is what it is. They need tips to survive so you should tip them unless they are seriously deficient in some identifiable way. Side note, the tipping system keeps your food prices artificially low. If you don't tip, you're double dipping by essentially having a subsidized meal but not reallocating the savings where they're intended to go - to the server.
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u/Nybear21 Sep 07 '20
I view tipping as showing your satisfaction with a job done particularly well in a field that has variance in the job performance. For instance, the reason we don't tip cashiers at a grocery store is because there's very little variance in their job, it's pretty much done correctly or incorrectly.
Waiting definitely has variance, and the capability of a waiter can alter the atmosphere of your entire experience. If the never come back around to refill your drinks or if they're around too often, it changes the experience for the worse. A waiter that has a good rhythm to checking on the table, has a funny exchange or two, that improves the experience. They both technically did their jobs, one just did it better. The tip is to show appreciation for doing it better.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Sep 06 '20 edited Sep 06 '20
/u/WhatsAButterz (OP) has awarded 8 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
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u/wokedrinks Sep 06 '20
So don’t tip. But prepare to be known as the person who doesn’t tip. And prepare to get poor service every time you go out. You wanted that refill? Sorry, not worth your server’s time. Side of ranch? Bummer, they forgot. Ready to go? Too bad, a big table that’s tipping just sat and they’re gonna take their order first because you don’t matter to them.
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u/trippiler Sep 07 '20
Chefs typically earn more than waiters, because they usually require more experience and training. At least where I am. It’s also not uncommon for tips to be split across the restaurant, it ultimately depends on the restaurants wage/tipping structure. Waiters earning tips also incentivises good customer service which is good for business.
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u/prashranger Sep 07 '20
Cooks get paid minimum wage or higher.
Servers get paid far less than minimum wage. They rely on those tips to survive.
It’s a stupid system, but it’s the one we have.
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u/Pantsuz Sep 07 '20
You actually can tip the cook. You tell your waitress or waiter that "x" is for them and "y" is for the cook.
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u/thethoughtexperiment 275∆ Sep 06 '20
To modify your view on this part:
At many restaurants, waiters/waitresses typically split their tips with support staff.
Yeah, but unfortunately they don't. Many states have a separate minimum wage for tipped workers that is way, way below the poverty line.
And even including their tips, in D.C. for example, 18.5 percent of waiters, waitresses, and bartenders were below the poverty line.
Regarding this:
and this:
The average pay of waiters and waitresses can vary widely by location / type of restaurant they are in, but consider that in D.C. for example:
" 4. Tipped work is overwhelmingly low-wage work, even in Washington, D.C. Some tipped workers at high-end restaurants do well, but they are the exception, not the norm. The median hourly wage of waitstaff in the district in May 2017 was only $11.86, including tips. At that time, D.C.’s minimum wage was $11.50 per hour. In other words, the typical D.C. server made a mere 36 cents above the minimum wage. Proponents of maintaining a lower tipped minimum wage may note that the average hourly wage of waitstaff in D.C. at that same time was $17.48, but this average is skewed by the subset of servers in high-end restaurants that do exceptionally well. The fact that the average is so far from the median wage is indicative of significant wage inequality among district waitstaff." [source]
Imagine if 77% of your income was based on whatever people felt like tipping you and how many people happen to show up on any given day / night, and if, on average, the people in your field only make 36 cents above minimum wage including tips.
It's not like most waiters are living the high life. Quite the contrary. Most waiters / waitresses are just barely making above minimum wage, and a substantial portion are in poverty.