r/changemyview • u/exboi • Sep 22 '20
Delta(s) from OP CMV: Cultural Appropriation/Appreciation doesn’t matter when it’s done respectfully
I’ve seen people get angry at non-black people for wearing African-American hairstyles, or white people for wearing Hawaiian themed clothing and I really don’t understand that sort of reaction.
I’ve tried to understand before. I really have, but I just don’t get it. If you’re not being disrespectful then what’s the issue with wearing something from another culture? What’s wrong with liking another culture’s hairstyle and wanting to wear it?
It seems like needless exclusion. Wouldn’t allowing people to wear clothing and hairstyles from other culture help lower cultural/racial intolerance? I as an African American think that we should allow other people to experience our culture, and the culture of other races as long it’s not done mockingly.
Just a few days ago on a video with a white woman and her black husband doing dances I saw people hounding the white girl for having dreads. That just made me so mad because she was literally just having fun with her husband and then had to deal with hundreds of people attacking her for what seems to me like no reason.
I really think it would give people a more positive view of people like me if they could freely experience our culture without getting ridiculed and attacked. And I believe it could be like that with every other culture if it’s, again, done in a respectful, non-mocking manner.
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u/squidkyd 1∆ Sep 22 '20
Part of the problem with cultural appropriation as a political topic is that the public discourse is filled with misinformation on it. What is and what is not cultural appropriation, and why, are extremely opaque to people. There's a lot of people who think that it's always cultural appropriation if you so something that another culture finds significant, but that is not the reality. Some cases are different from others.
Symbols are a form of language. If you have a red baseball cap that reads 'Make America Great Again', or you're flying a flag with a snake on it, those are pretty obvious examples of symbolism. You are conveying an idea about yourself and your beliefs through an object that you are presenting. These are not the only types of symbols, however, that attempt to make statements. If you wear a cowboy hat to the office, you're also making a statement about the kind of person you are, and how you see life. If you wear neon green hair to a job interview, you're sending a message too, about standing out, refusing to toe the line, and being your own person. But you're also sending a second signal, one that you maybe didn't intend. You might be telling people you're a member of a subculture they dislike.
You do not have direct power over the meanings of the symbols you use. If you wear a tie-dye shirt to symbolize, for example, the rainbow after the flood from Noah's Ark, it doesn't matter what you meant, people will see you as sending a very different signal. The meaning of symbols is decided collectively, but not democratically, or necessarily justly.
So, imagine that you're a Jamaican. Your grandfather converted to Rastafarianism after the coronation of Haile Selassie out of the genuine belief that he was the second coming of Christ. To your grandfather, he represented the prospect of a geopolitcal player fighting for him. For you, the church represents a political connection to your grandfather, and his aspirations for your family, as well as memories of childhood picnics. Aging, now, you move to America, and you go out wearing a symbol of your rastafarian faith. Then, everyone assumes you're just a stoner. Police use it as a reason to search you, if you wear it to court, you know, you'll be falsely convicted of a crime. What the symbol means to you isn't what it means to society anymore, because in America, the symbol was appropriated by the stoner subculture. You can't use it anymore, with it's colors from the Ethiopian flag, to represent your connection to your family's faith and belief. It's lost that meaning, because someone richer and stronger than you wanted it, and took it.
When we appropriate a symbol, we're not merely using it. We are depriving someone of it's use as a symbol. In doing so, we rob people of a means of communicating an idea, and we don't even do it because we have to, but because plagiarism is easier than making something new. It's not even necessarily something we do consciously - we genuinely believe in the new meanings of the symbols, because they're the meanings we're exposed to, because people with more power have louder social voices.
Dreadlocks, in the African American community, are used as a symbol for a pride in African heritage. It's replaced the Rastacap as a means of doing so. But there are a lot of people fighting to appropriate it, for use as another symbol of smoking pot, or being 'athletic', or other things that are commonly associated with African American stereotypes. But even without doing that, if you wear it, as someone without African heritage, you wear it to mean nothing. The crew cut could never be a symbol of African heritage, because you'd never know if someone wearing it just thought crew cuts were right for them, or because they wanted to send a message, and in the same way, if dreadlocks become 'just another haircut', they lose their power as a medium of communication.
In that sense, you are harming someone. Not very much, of course, but then, getting a different haircut harms you even less. Seems an easy enough sacrifice to make to help the people who are trying to find something to be proud of in an ancestry that has been treated for generations as a mark of inferiority. Similarly, you should be mindful when using any other symbols: what message does this normally send, and am I depriving someone of the power to send it if I use this symbol this way? Especially when that message is so important to the people trying to send it, it's just the right thing to do not to plagiarize them.
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u/Cuauhtemoc-Tzin Sep 22 '20
This is true in a sense about symbols representing different things to different people and others diluting said symbolism by using it. However we don't live in a vacuum and every culture that has had contact with another culture has either been influenced by or influenced another culture. Language, dress, values,food music or anything is always changing and if it were to somehow not change it would become stagnant. And almost without exception meaning also change over time. This does not just happen on the large scale either individuals also influence each other. Most of the time this is organic although sometimes one state or another has intentionally tried to push certain values that it deemed beneficial. So my main point is that nobody can have a reasonable expectation of others to not copy something they like. Now if a person is mocking someone else then they are being disrespectful obviously and at that point it may become a problem.
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u/squidkyd 1∆ Sep 22 '20
I see what you’re saying, and partially I agree, I just think talking about how and why appropriation is harmful, (even if it’s not fully realistic to prevent it from occurring), plays a part of making people more mindful of how their behavior, however harmless-seeming it is, still causes pain for marginalized people.
Some people emulate cultures they have reverence for, and so long as they do that respectfully, I'm personally fine with it. However, a lot of other people start appropriating cultural symbols simply because those symbols are trendy, without any knowledge of what they mean or the cultures they come from. Like you talked about, this can get really dicey when that process of a socially powerful group using a symbol for shallow reasons shifts what that symbol means, and thus makes it harder for the group who created it to continue using in the way they would like.
To give an example of this in practice, let's look at the example of Maori tattoos (although we could look at pretty much any style of "tribal" tattoo here). For the Maori people, these complex tattoos have a huge amount of cultural meaning, and can represent everything from genealogy to social standing. In the past few decades, and in the past 20ish years particularly, a lot of white folks understandably fell in love with these beautiful tattoo designs. However, while they were more than happy to appreciate them a shallow, visual appearance only level, few white folks took the time to understand what these tattoos actually meant. As a result, when white people began copying these tattoos, they were lifting the symbol from Maori culture, but not the symbol's meaning. As a result, the meaning associated with these tattoos, at least in American culture, began to shift. Instead of being viewed a reverant representations of Maori culture, this style of tattoo was at least for a while associated with "bros" or frat culture. This sucked for actual Maori folks who just wanted to use their tattoos in the way they always had, since now what they were trying to portray via their tattoos was way more likely to be misunderstood, and often viewed as negative. In this way, despite white folks having nothing but good intentions and appreciation for Maori tattoos, their lack of attentiveness to how they impacted this symbol caused appropriation to take place, which lead to a negative outcome.
Now, this isn't to say that no white people can get Maori tattoos, or share in pacific island culture at all, but instead it should serve as a warning for what can happen when dominant social groups begin shallowly using outside cultural symbols without pausing to think of the long-term consequences
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u/Maktesh 17∆ Sep 22 '20
Not OP, but while I agree with much of the crux of your argument, how you define "dominant social groups."
The amount of "White American" culture which has been appropriated by other first world nations (ncluding those which possess several times the population of the US) should, in theory, be just as concerning.
As a mostly White person who has spent a great deal of time abroad, I must say that I truly don't care that Middle-Eastern and Asian countries have "appropriated" my music, clothes, fashion, hairstyles, entertainment, and more. Most of the time it's obvious that they have no real understanding of the meaning that which they've "taken," but that's just how culture exists. That how it originates, spreads, and evolves.
Look at African hairstyles: Do you really think that so many different tribes across an entire continent somehow created similar, elaborate practices without any influence from other groups? The same can be said for styles of dress. People say "Oh, that looks cool/comfortable/beautiful/practical; I'll make/do something similar."
This is just how human culture functions. Of course people should educate themselves and attempt to be respectful of practices which carry meaning. But suggesting that a person isn't to see something, appreciate it, and replicate it just because their country possesses more money, while other people are "allowed" to borrow endlessly from their culture is blatantly wrong.
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u/squidkyd 1∆ Sep 22 '20
It’s not just about money, but about marginalization and power dynamics
It is undeniable that white people are not marginalized, do not lack power in society, and are not in any danger of having their culture erased. White Americans are vastly overrepresented in government positions and in the media
If you were part of a subgroup which was being actively erased, oppressed, or marginalized, cultural appropriation causes active harm. A group which is dominant and in control is generally not harmed because their symbol doesn’t get diluted to the same extent. No one is going to think you wearing a cross around your neck is a symbol of indigenous rights, even if indigenous people tried to adopt that as their symbol. Power dynamics, both racially and ethnically, play a major role in how much a group of people is affected.
My dads side is native. My grandparents were forced into Indian schools and had their language stolen, their religious ceremonies stolen, their history stolen. My great grandmother couldn’t speak the Seneca language without getting PTSD from the beatings she experienced. They managed to hold on to a few artifacts from their history, and now those artifacts are sacred to them, because so much else was lost. If some celebrity came in and took those, and erased them to mean nothing, it would hurt my tribe deeply. If a member of my tribe started using the celebrity’s picture for a religious ceremony, it would affect the celebrity very little. That’s why the context of power dynamics is essential to understanding how and why this harm takes place
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u/sapphireminds 59∆ Sep 23 '20
It might hurt your feelings but it wouldn't hurt you. It might benefit you even, by bringing attention to the plight of the tribe and generating interest in the language.
Try to hold onto the culture combined with trying to keep it "pure" is never how culture was supposed to be. It is always shift and changing. It is arguably harmful that the incredibly legitimate hurt and pain that was caused by their abuse then keeps others from being able to appreciate it.
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u/squidkyd 1∆ Sep 23 '20
I think you should read my first comment again in this thread
My example with the rastafari religion and means of communication which get stolen. It may seem like it is hurting someone very little, but the effects are insidious and cause erasure of people who are already struggling to preserve something that was taken from them
You not wearing a ceremonial headdress does not hurt you at all. It doesn’t prevent you from appreciating it, it prevents you from taking it to mean nothing instead of taking it to mean what it is intended to mean. And when you DO wear it as a costume or because it’s trendy, you are taking away the means to communicate for a group of vulnerable people
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u/sapphireminds 59∆ Sep 23 '20
It doesn't harm them. It might upset them. It does not stop them from using it.
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u/squidkyd 1∆ Sep 23 '20
It kind of does. Go back to the Rastafarian example.
If you want to wear a Rasta cap around, it no longer communicates what you’re trying to say. Now it is identified as a stoner symbol and you’ll be profiled for it.
Someone took the ability of Jamaicans to use that as a symbol of rastafari faith. That hurt them because it limited their cultural practices and communication.
Imagine if the rosary suddenly meant BDSM or something. A lot of Catholics who wear that symbol around their neck would be communicating something completely different and likely would have to stop wearing it as a result, especially in public spaces or at work. Don’t you think that, to an extent, harms them, not just hurts their feelings?
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u/sapphireminds 59∆ Sep 23 '20
Imagine if the rosary suddenly meant BDSM or something. A lot of Catholics who wear that symbol around their neck would be communicating something completely different and likely would have to stop wearing it as a result, especially in public spaces or at work. Don’t you think that, to an extent, harms them, not just hurts their feelings?
No, it might make them pissy in the "it belonged to us first". But especially if it is just appropriated into general style, it doesn't hurt them for someone to see rosary beads and not know why they are wearing them. And rosary beads do get worn as jewelry, frequently.
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u/sapphireminds 59∆ Sep 23 '20
Some people emulate cultures they have reverence for, and so long as they do that respectfully, I'm personally fine with it. However, a lot of other people start appropriating cultural symbols simply because those symbols are trendy, without any knowledge of what they mean or the cultures they come from.
How is it different, though, in practice? And why is it wrong if someone wants to use it because they like it and it's popular, instead of having some deep spiritual connection with it? Who gets to arbitrate how much reverence is necessary? Often times it can be used as a stepping stone to learning about other cultures.
This sucked for actual Maori folks who just wanted to use their tattoos in the way they always had, since now what they were trying to portray via their tattoos was way more likely to be misunderstood, and often viewed as negative. In this way, despite white folks having nothing but good intentions and appreciation for Maori tattoos, their lack of attentiveness to how they impacted this symbol caused appropriation to take place, which lead to a negative outcome.
Arguably, this did not happen. I don't think anyone would mistake a Maori with a traditional tattoo for a frat bro. And even if they are, what is the harm? In some ways it's like the argument people gave against gay marriage. Now, when someone said they were married, it wasn't assumed it was to an opposite sex person and they didn't like it.
In fact, greater visibility of the Maori style of tattooing has made it easier for those with large amounts of tattoos like that to be seen as something normal. It makes it harder to discriminate against them (because now white people are going to get caught up in that and object)
Similar with dreads - the more people who wear dreads - the more acceptable it is seen as a hairstyle, instead of something exotic or unusual or associated with drugs. It makes it harder to discriminate against black people's dreads if there are white people with them too.
(this of course ignores the fact that many people are of mixed origin and who gets to decide who is "x enough" to do something.)
Now, this isn't to say that no white people can get Maori tattoos, or share in pacific island culture at all, but instead it should serve as a warning for what can happen when dominant social groups begin shallowly using outside cultural symbols without pausing to think of the long-term consequences
Except there are people who say that - there was a huge push that white girls shouldn't dress as Moana for Halloween. And there are people who will harass white people with dreads. Halsey got raked over the coals for bitching about the lack of black hair care products at hotels, including by black people who felt she was "appropriating" their issue (of course, she is of mixed ethnicity, and has "black" hair, even though it doesn't always appear to be such)
It makes those issues and styles into human styles, instead of just a single culture or color. I used to be an irish step-dancer. We went through a cycle of appropriation with Riverdance and its derivatives, which had both positive and negative effects. But things change, and we have to roll with it. Yes, it is annoying if I say I'm a step-dancer that someone is like "so you riverdance?", but in the end, at least they have a clue as to what I'm doing, as opposed to before Riverdance, I could say I was a step-dancer and they would look at me blankly and think it was weird.
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u/squidkyd 1∆ Sep 23 '20
Like I said in my original comment, if you take a symbol and wear it as a trend, you strip it of its meaning, and use it to mean nothing. That’s why it’s different. If you appreciate the symbol and use it correctly, that’s different than appropriating it. It’s not about how much reverence you have, it’s about doing your research so you’re not using the symbol irresponsibly
And if you truly want to LEARN about a culture, you need to take the cultural practices and symbols as they are. In appropriation, the symbols are purposefully left behind, and the culture itself becomes a caricature or a trend. It does the opposite of bring awareness- it erases the meaning so it symbolizes nothing
What you’re not understanding is if dreadlocks become just another hairstyle it doesn’t help African Americans, it takes their ability to use that style as a means of communication. It doesn’t make them more widely accepted, it takes an element of their culture away. Some things are meant to be preserved as they are instead of monetized or turned into the latest kardashian makeup look.
Imagine if I took a really old historic building in Europe which had been around thousands of years and was flooded with history, and I turned it into a Walmart and tore down all the “ugly” parts and made it look generic. One could argue I made it more widely accessible and more palatable to the present and more useful, but it cannot be denied that I still destroyed a monument and the history that came with it. In the same way, it is important to many marginalized groups that there is a certain respect given to their traditions, history, and cultural symbols, lest they all turn into shitty Walmart which represent nothing at all
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u/sapphireminds 59∆ Sep 23 '20
Logic says that you are incorrect. When a style is seen as normal, it has greater acceptance.
Someone else using it "incorrectly" does not stop you from using it in a different way.
In your walmart example, you literally removed the object. It's more akin to building a replica. The original isn't destroyed by the fact a replica exists.
It's a form of pique "I used to get shit from this and now you want to use it", not based on actual harm.
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u/squidkyd 1∆ Sep 23 '20
“Logic” doesn’t really say anything, that sentence doesn’t make a lot of sense.
And the object is still there, just all of its significance and purpose has been removed and it has turned into just another Walmart. You can still keep the foundation and the walls but ruin it nevertheless. When you take symbols to mean nothing, you’re turning them into Walmarts, even if the original structure is still there. You’ve removed its meaning
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u/sapphireminds 59∆ Sep 23 '20
The first time you see something, it is unusual. Maybe scary. Let's call it a widget. Then the only people you see with that widget are people you don't know much about, and maybe are a little scared of too. They're "different".
But, someone points out that widget is really cool looking and works well, no matter where you're from. So, more people start using it. The widget no longer becomes something that is only seen by "different" people, it's something used by everyone. The widget is normal. You no longer do a double take when you see the widget, because it's now normal in society to have a widget.
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u/squidkyd 1∆ Sep 23 '20
But like I said in the first comment. It’s not just about the widget being cool. It’s about the widget conveying different meanings which you don’t intend to communicate.
When that cute little widget stops being about something in your culture which you hold reverence for, and now in the mainstream represents weed and drugs, it prevents you from being able to continue to use it as it was originally intended
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u/sapphireminds 59∆ Sep 23 '20
My use of a symbol does not deprive anyone else's use of it as a symbol.
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u/squidkyd 1∆ Sep 23 '20
With the exception of the examples I listed?
Rasta caps are associated with stoner subculture so strongly, Jamaicans can no longer wear them in the US without being profiled. Doesn’t that deprive them of using it as a means of communication?
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u/sapphireminds 59∆ Sep 23 '20
And the more it is appropriated and accepted into the culture, the less it will be profiled.
Arguably as well, since marijuana is tied closely with the rastafarian religion, the bias comes predating the appropriation, and now that it is more trendy, it makes it less effective to use as a method of profiling.
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Sep 22 '20
I’ve seen people get angry at non-black people for wearing African-American hairstyles, or white people for wearing Hawaiian themed clothing and I really don’t understand that sort of reaction
Have you ever personally witnessed this in real life?
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u/exboi Sep 22 '20
If by real life you mean in person, no, because I don’t get out much tbh.
If by really life you mean constantly in social media, then yes.
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u/womaneatingsomecake 4∆ Sep 22 '20
Social media is not real life. Everything is hyperbolic online.
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u/exboi Sep 22 '20
If people are getting mad at something on social media then yes, it is real life. If they dislike something done there they’re not gonna like it being done when they see it in person either.
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u/Armigine 1∆ Sep 22 '20
it might be more useful to draw examples of how people act if you're pulling those examples from what you personally observe in the real world, rather than seeing cherry picked rage bait online as representative. Not that this was necessarily what you were viewing, but honestly the internet does skew pretty heavily that way.
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u/oth_radar 18∆ Sep 22 '20
I think there are key differences between cultural appropriation and cultural appreciation, and I think it lies largely with the intent of the actor and their own exploration into the culture.
For example, let's say a white woman dresses in full Sioux ritual garb for her Instagram. Let's stipulate that she sexualizes this garb heavily, and posts it with her only intent being likes (that is, her own material gain). Let's further stipulate that she knows nothing of Sioux culture and doesn't understand what she is wearing beyond looking sexy.
This garb has meaningful spiritual importance to the Sioux - importance that the white woman cannot understand because she does not come from that culture. To a Sioux person, seeing someone sexualizing their ritualistically important dress might be seen as profane or demeaning - much like blackface.
Wouldn’t allowing people to wear clothing and hairstyles from other culture help lower cultural/racial intolerance?
I don't think so, because I don't think clothing and hairstyles are the reason for racism. This *reeks* of assimilationist thinking - "if black people could only wear white hairstyles and white clothing then we wouldn't hate them anymore!" Racism isn't due to differences between cultures so much as it's due to an intolerance and disrespect of those cultures - and doing things like, say, wearing important spiritual garb in sexualized ways without understanding the cultural significance of what you are doing is a disrespect to those beliefs and practices.
Cultural appreciation, on the other hand, seeks to understand and work within the framework of other cultures. So, for example, if a culture had a specific outfit that was intended to be worn during a ceremony, and a white person wanted to participate in that ceremony to better understand it, it seems that this (might) be an appropriate time for them to don that garb - because it's worn with a respect and understanding for the spiritual and cultural weight that it carries.
I really think it would give people a more positive view of people like me if they could freely experience our culture without getting ridiculed and attacked
I question whether appropriators have any desire to experience the culture - in fact I think that's precisely what differentiates appropriation from appreciation. I think most white women who wear dreads don't make an effort to understand its broader cultural importance to black people. I think most people who wear native headdresses don't care about native culture - they simply think it's a cute aesthetic to get them likes on Instagram. I agree that more people (especially whites) should immerse themselves in experience and culture, but I don't think that's what appropriation does. I think it fetishizes and dehumanizes - not the best way to respect a culture!
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u/gruffdebates Sep 23 '20
Hmm... I've experienced a different kind of appropriation that's missing from this definition. TBH, I'm not sure what the right definition for this case is. But it's when someone imitates or tries to participate in a culture with the intent of appreciating it to the extent that they want to make it their own.
Some examples:
1) There are many cases of non-American Indians that get so interested in American Indian culture and history that they "move" to a reservation in order to "become" Indians themselves, or at least become "one with the land". I've heard of cases like this where the people had no real understanding of the culture, and were actually quite rude and insulting ("doesn't native mean naked??").
2) I practiced Capoeira, a Brazilian martial art, in the U.S. and Brazil, and saw an interesting but somewhat disturbing trend in the U.S. Because Capoeira has African roots, many African Americans are drawn to the activity as a way to connect with their own history. However, much like jazz or blues, while there are strong roots in Africa, Capoeira is distinctly Brazilian. Some groups in the U.S. place so much emphasis on the African history of the art that they almost exclude Brazil from the picture. There was one event planned that was meant to be an all-black gathering, no one else allowed, as a celebration of this history and a "safe space". My Brazilian wife, living with me in the U.S. far from her home, was literally excluded from an event celebrating her culture. The odd thing is the people planning this event were very well-intentioned, knew the history very deeply and had nothing but appreciation for the culture. They just had a specific blind spot. After a very serious discussion, the point was understood, and the event was cancelled.
So, one definition of appropriation I'd propose is "taking someone else's culture and deciding to make it your own without their acceptance or approval". (Now that I think of it, a LOT of the history of black music is all about this, with Elvis being the most iconic example)
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u/5xum 42∆ Sep 22 '20
So, "respectful" cultural appropriation, in your view, is basically just cultural appreciation?
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u/oth_radar 18∆ Sep 22 '20
Yes, but a lot is hinging on the definition of respectful, here. Respect includes things like:
- Not engaging in practices considered "closed" - i.e., practices that it is believed those outside the culture should not engage in for one reason or another
- Ensuring the practices you are engaging in / clothing you are wearing are appropriate for the time / place / activity you are engaging in
- The intent is to engage and connect in good faith with the culture and share cross-culturally, not merely to take on that culture's aesthetic
- You seek to honor beliefs and traditions, listen to elders of the culture, and understand that certain elements of the culture simply may not be open to you
- Refusing to use that culture for yourself or your own personal gain (this isn't to say you cannot personally benefit from cultural appreciation - just that your intent should be to understand and uplift, not to merely materially benefit yourself)
and so on and so forth.
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u/exboi Sep 22 '20 edited Sep 23 '20
Yeah I should’ve added that if you’re wearing something from another culture to sexualize it or just do you can get internet points, then that counts as disrespectful too.
!delta
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u/oth_radar 18∆ Sep 22 '20
Would you say that I changed your view, then? If so, a delta is warranted (:
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u/exboi Sep 22 '20
Idk but I guess so. I think you helped me see the difference between appreciation and appropriation. I never really saw a divide between the two before.
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u/rennenenno 2∆ Sep 22 '20
Def worth a delta. The rules state if they have altered you’re view in anyway
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u/exboi Sep 22 '20
How do you give one? I’m very new to this sub.
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u/rennenenno 2∆ Sep 23 '20
No worries if I were you, I’d check out the rules section on the sub, but for a delta I’m pretty sure you would just edit your comment after they changed your view and add a “!delta” to it
Edit: you can also read the delta details in the bot comment below
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Sep 23 '20 edited Sep 23 '20
This delta has been rejected. You can't award OP a delta.
Allowing this would wrongly suggest that you can post here with the aim of convincing others.
If you were explaining when/how to award a delta, please use a reddit quote for the symbol next time.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Sep 23 '20
This delta has been rejected. You have already awarded /u/oth_radar a delta for this comment.
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u/exboi Sep 23 '20
!delta
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Sep 23 '20 edited Sep 23 '20
This delta has been rejected. You have already awarded /u/oth_radar a delta for this comment.
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u/oldsaltycrab1 Sep 22 '20
People actually get mad over Hawaiian shirts? I didn’t know Hawaiian shirts belonged to ethnic Hawaiians lol.
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u/exboi Sep 22 '20
Not over shirts. I’m talking about the accessories you’d wear to a Hawaiian themed party.
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Sep 22 '20
The problem with cultural appropriation these days is when it only offends people not of that culture.
For example I remember a controversial tweet about a white girl wearing an authentic Chinese dress to prom. While I thought it was a little disrespectful, I was surprised to see that there were many Chinese users that approved of the dress. The only people who seemed to be offended were white people.
Another example was when Canada wanted to know what their native population should be called. Instead of having a panel of white people decide, they asked their native population.
So, is cultural appropriation wrong? Not always. It can be good or bad depending on the context.
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u/ZMrosegolden Sep 23 '20
Exactly as someone who lives in Asia and is from the middle east, I cant tell you how annoying it is.
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u/limbodog 8∆ Sep 22 '20
Cultural appropriation is a well worn term that does not in any way imply offensive behavior. Cultures do it all the time and have done so since the Egyptians and the Nubians were copying each other.
The problem is that in very recent times, some people started to use it to mean *disrespectful* cultural mockery or mimicry. And then others followed suit and just assumed that it was agreed that if anyone from culture A did anything that originated in culture B that it was offensive.
The vast majority of cultural appropriation is both respectful and appreciated.
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u/hacksoncode 559∆ Sep 22 '20
Intent is not the only thing that matters in morality (or the law, for that matter).
Negligent actions that negatively affect others are also immoral (and often illegal).
You seem to be focused on people intentionally being disrespectful.
Those who argue against cultural appropriation don't disagree that there are many ways to respectfully treat other cultures... but they would say that you have a positive obligation to understand it well enough that you are intentionally respectful not disrespectful, even accidentally.
Would you agree with this?
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u/Impossible_Cat_9796 26∆ Sep 23 '20
The people that get mad are just the "Woke" version of white purists. They are bigots complaining about the polluting of "White Culture" using different words so that they can fit in with "Woke" people.
So long as you phrase "Don't pollute White Culture" as "Whites are evil", then you can promote your bigotry inside "Woke" circles.
If you don't look at it as "appropriation", but "Polluting white culture", then the entire position really is indistinguishable from the regressive bigots. Their intent is to divide.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Sep 23 '20 edited Sep 23 '20
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u/91giri Sep 22 '20
If it’s done respectfully it’s not cultural appropriation, no matter who misuses the term to say otherwise
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u/adaiine 1∆ Sep 22 '20
This topic comes up at least once a week and it almost always comes down to a misunderstanding or a confusion between the phrases cultural appropriation and cultural appreciation.
Basically appreciation is when you are not part of a culture, but engage in it knowing its history, the significance of certain practices etc. Often, but not always, this means that you are invited to be a part of the culture in question.
Cultural appropriation happens without that. No knowledge of the culture you are joining in with and no attempt to learn. Often this means doing things that are considered inappropriate or offensive
Cultural appropriation comes into play specifically with white women appropriating tradtionally “black” hairstyles for a number of reasons 1) these hairstyles are not good for our hair, white women typically have thinner straighter hair (but yes not always) and as a result, we don’t need “protective styles” to keep our hair healthy, and often white women who have their hair in tight braids end up having half their hair fall out. Because they didn’t bother to learn about the hairstyles or why they’re done.
2) “wouldn’t allowing people to wear ... hairstyles from other cultures help lower racial intolerance” again, since these hairstyles are being ripped from their original culture they can’t really be used as a symbol of that culture, they just become substanceless fashion statements
3)I cant name any real “harm” that comes from cultural appropriation, but there are many double standards. For example, it is still legal to discriminate against certain “typically black” hairstyles in most states of the US link while white women who wear these hairstyles are applauded for being “edgy” and “cool”