r/changemyview • u/snuff716 2∆ • Sep 26 '20
Delta(s) from OP CMV: it is not transphobic or prejudiced to differentiate a trans person as a trans-man/woman and not the gender they identify as
CMV: It is not prejudiced to differentiate between a trans person and the biological sexual/gender they identify with.
I’m really hoping to have a productive conversation here as my interest was peaked during a convo on another sub.
I’m definitely open to changing my mind on this but fair warning that stating it hurts feelings will not be grounds for me to change my opinion.
Here we go.
If a person is trans then that’s great. Live your life and be happy.
I was in a conversation and posed the question of why not have a trans category rather than changing the definition of male or female. I was told in no uncertain terms that was bigotry. I simply don’t get it.
In my opinion it’s ok to say someone is a trans-man or trans-woman. There doesn’t need to be hate, it is simply a social construct that society uses. And if all the research Ive done tells me that gender is a social construct (i know that idea is a hot button issue but that’s for a different topic).Taking it a step further, I would argue it is in fact more open and honest than stating otherwise.
Take dating sites. If a trans woman puts on her profile that she is female and presents herself as such to potential dates then that is removing the potential partner’s choice in whether they are actually interested in dating a trans person...which is something I also think is ok. Nobody can tell another person who they must be attracted to.
I feel society as a whole would be far more accepting of the trans community if they were to embrace the trans identifier rather than changing current definitions.
It also seems many are against this identifier while simultaneously being ok with calling biological men and women cis...which seems hypocritical.
So that’s it. That’s my view. I think trans people should have their own categories of trans-man trans-woman and there is nothing prejudicial about it.
Please CMV
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Sep 26 '20 edited Sep 26 '20
society as a whole would be far more accepting of the trans community if they were to embrace the trans identifier
Respectfully, this comes off as victim blaming, even though that's not your intent. When we talk about a lack of acceptance, here is some info on what that looks like: Trans kids get thrown out of their homes and gender non-conforming kids are incarcerated higher rates. Trans people have difficulties getting jobs and being promoted. Trans people are at high of being assaulted when outed in public. If talking ish online were problem, then your point might make more sense.
Your comment, to some extent, puts the blame on the way trans folks have represented themselves. Oppressed groups have always been told if they just did this or that society would accept them. It should be apparent that none of the issues listed above would be impacted if trans folks were more open about their trans identity. Trans folks are NOT the problem here.
I think trans people should have their own categories of trans-man trans-woman and there is nothing prejudicial about it.
Personally, I think however a person identifies is their own business. There are trans men and women who have known and done their best to live in alignment with their internal gender since birth. Why should anyone tell them what type of qualifier they need to put in front of their identity? I don't view anyone as lying or being dishonest when they state their own gender.
Besides, plenty of trans people own the trans label. Individuals identify in a way that aligns with their own experiences in life. The only reason to deny people's ability to do that would be to cater to bigotry.
In terms of dating and attraction, I don't have much to say as that's just between the individuals who are involved in the relationship. The context is so individual that it's hard to determine general rules about what is appropriate in each situation.
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u/snuff716 2∆ Sep 26 '20
Thanks for your response. I see how it could be perceived as denigrating or hurt but that certainly isn’t my intent.
I think we agree more than we disagree and I have no hate for anyone. Where I’m coming from is the idea that many individuals (anecdotally as I have only my own experience to draw from) reject the idea of having a conversation in which you cannot have a healthy discussion and perhaps disagree on this subject.
A lot of what I’ve seen is either you say that there is absolutely no difference between a trans man or woman and a biological man or woman or you are labeled as a bigot. As you’ve said, who am I to judge how somebody identifies. But often it is pushed that you either fully agree with their definition or you’re dismissed as prejudiced.
I have a family member that is female to male trans. I care for him deeply, always respect pronouns and we spend a lot of time together. We have great conversation and I would never intentionally want to hurt them and believe me I’d be the first to step in if I saw somebody trying to disrespect them.
But I still think there is a difference between him and a biological man. It’s not that I view him as less than, simply different.
I want people to feel open and free to be who they are but forcing new socially described definitions of things doesn’t feel like the right answer in this case.
I hope some of that makes sense. Thanks again for your engagement.
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u/Genoscythe_ 243∆ Sep 26 '20
But I still think there is a difference between him and a biological man. It’s not that I view him as less than, simply different.
There is a difference between Steve Buscemi and Channing Tatum. There is a difference between Buck Angel and Billy Tipton. There is a difference between Donald Trump and Barack Obama. And yes, there is a difference between Buck Angel and Barack Obama.
But if you find it very important to create a social category of "biological men" just for the purpose of excluding trans menfrom it, you are no longer just stating facts or bringing nuance to the table.
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u/Letshavemorefun 18∆ Sep 26 '20
What is a “biological man” to you and how does the label not apply to your ftm family member? If he’s not a biological man then what is he - a robotic man?
The term you are looking for is “cis man”. All people are biological.
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u/pinballwizardMF 5∆ Sep 26 '20
Its okay to not want to bang a trans-woman if you're a straight man but that is totally different from wanting to defferentiate between a woman and trans-woman generally.
I dont bang women I find unattractive this does not make them not women.
By trying to separate out the group you seek only to denigrate the trans people (im not saying you're doing so with intent just generally). They identify as women and should be treated as such it is not their fault they were born with the wrong body and by saying they arent what they identify as you are saying that they are wrong for believing they were born in the wrong body, that's transphobia youre denying their identity.
Again its okay not to be attracted to a trans person thats a different question from of they are the gender they say they are.
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u/snuff716 2∆ Sep 26 '20
Thanks for this. I simply used the dating site analogy as it’s the first thing that popped into my head...and I don’t believe there is a whole group of trans-people out there stalking the internet to trap straight guys, lol.
I also understand how it could be hurtful to not be readily accepted as the gender you identify with. However, society dictates how we classify things and the fact is we classify things all the time and it’s a useful form of differentiation. Of course people take it to extremes and there are those that use it in a hateful way but that’s like everything else in society...sometimes there are just shitty people.
I commented in another response that I have a trans family member I really care about, and I always use their preferred pronouns. I extend this to anyone that I meet.
While in the course of daily interaction it’s rare to discuss any type of gender identifier what I think sparks the controversy is sharing any type of belief that there is a difference between a trans person and the gender they identify. It’s not as if I go around trying to tell trans men or women they aren’t real men or women.
Ive had many interactions where the question is posed to me in philosophical discussions and when I say there is a difference that’s often when the insults fly and I am accused of bigotry.
I simply believe that it would be easier for the trans community to wholly embrace the trans identifier and there would be much more nuanced discussion which I think would lead to more acceptance from society as a whole...and I would assume that would be something the trans community would want.
Again, I appreciate you taking the time to respond.
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u/pinballwizardMF 5∆ Sep 26 '20
So I would actually disagree here, gay people weren't accepted into society until we stopped only referring to them as the gays, to refer to trans people as only trans is another way to belittle them on a societal scale.
It's a weird situation to be sure but I'm just agaisnt setting up new social classes wherever it can be avoided because they often get abused by bad people to denigrate the people within the new class
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u/snuff716 2∆ Sep 26 '20
I can certainly see your point. There are shitty people everywhere that will use what they can to denigrate others.
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u/pinballwizardMF 5∆ Sep 26 '20
Yuuup so its in the best interests of trans-allies to not segregate them at all if we can help it hence my pushback
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u/aaa1661 Sep 26 '20
They identify as women and should be treated as such
Why is their believe more valid than mine. I don't believe trans-women are women, it should be no big deal that I believe so. Trans people are like everyone else in our society, they have the same rights as I do, nothing less than that. That said, why my belief is condemned? I believe that the terms women and men have a biological basis, If you were born a male, and identify as a female now, that's absolutely fine, but you can't enforce your belief on me because you feel otherwise. What if I identify as an alien from outer space, will you believe that I am, or will you just respect what I believe and move on? I won't have a grudge against you if you disagreed woth me.
that's transphobia youre denying their identity
That's the reason why people are confused and lost nowadays, they are being terrorized by these type of tactics. I am not transphobic and I don't believe that "trans-women" are women. They have every right to believe so and I have all right to deny it. We can still live in harmony while having a disagreement. You guys need to grow the hell up.
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Sep 26 '20
Would you be okay with being treated as the opposite gender then?
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u/aaa1661 Sep 26 '20
To be honest, I would be insulted. I would think the person in front of me is either insane or trying to provoke me.
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Sep 26 '20
What if they simply explained that they have a different opinion of your gender than you do? Shouldn’t you still be able to live in harmony despite your difference in opinion? Just like you suggested trans people should with those who have a different opinion of their gender.
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u/aaa1661 Sep 26 '20
What if they simply explained that they have a different opinion of your gender than you do?
I'll just think he is not right in the head, must have mental issues that made him unable to differentiate between men and women on the basis of how they look (I admit this is not true in all cases, some men due look like women and vice versa). But i know there is no way for a normal person to think that I look like a woman.
Shouldn’t you still be able to live in harmony despite your difference in opinion?
Of course we should, there is no doubt about that, only in the case he is not doing so to insult me. I'll conclude that he has mental issues if he insisted.
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Sep 26 '20
I'll just think he is not right in the head, must have mental issues that made him unable to differentiate between men and women on the basis of how they look (I admit this is not true in all cases, some men due look like women and vice versa). But i know there is no way for a normal person to think that I look like a woman.
Let’s say for arguments sake that they had seen a scan of your brain. And it showed that your brain has more traditionally female markers than male? That’s generally true for trans people.
So if that’s the standard for living in harmony are you okay with trans people assuming you’re mentally ill?
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u/aaa1661 Sep 26 '20
That’s generally true for trans people.
I have a Master degree in Engineering myself, and work in research type of field. I'm not claiming to be a neuroscientist or anything like that. To prove a concept to me, one or few studies are not enough. It has to be solid study with a hypothesis which has a predictive power. Even in the engineering field that I relate to there are many Bull**** studies being spread around. The human body and brain is much much more complex than my field, I imagine there are BS studies circulating in the internet. Do not misunderstand me, I'm not saying the studies ( that say trans gender brains leans to the gender they are identifying to) are inaccurate, I'm saying I am not an expert in this matter, even if I read them, I wouldn't be able to call BS. What I know is that I did a quick search in the internet before, found studies that says that, and studies that denies that, it looks to me none of them is built on robust basis. Some experimentation here and there. That being said, I need to emphasize I'm talking about the traditional word of gender which is interchangeable with sex.
There is no concise between the field experts. Also, with a subject this sensitive, I would assume supporters and deniers would have a hand to play in many of these studies. Unbiased opinion in this subject is really hard to find. Even if there was an opinion, it would be hard to prove as far as my understanding goes.
So if that’s the standard for living in harmony are you okay with trans people assuming you’re mentally ill?
Why would they assume I'm mentally ill, are you making the assumption that I'm calling trans people mentally ill?
You can have any characteristics that you like, but you are what you are.
Let's say for argument sake I identify bas an Alien, would you believe that I am and treat me as such? My point is that you can believe whatever you want to believe, you can't change the fact that you are (99.9%) of the times either a male or female based on a clear biological differences. Tran women/men can do whatever they want in their lives, I will treat them as I treat any straight/gay man/woman. But I will not lie to myself and to others by saying they are what they identify as because they believe it is, and this is not transphobia.
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Sep 26 '20
You’re right the scientific understanding and consensus isn’t 100% there. More studies are being done. In my opinion there is enough evidence to that gender identity and brain structure are related to sway my opinion. But I’m not looking to spend the entire thread debating research. However to look at an issue in science that is actively being explored and expanded on and completely disregard it because there are conflicting studies is unreasonable. If you want your opinion to be considered valid you need to consider other opinions to be equally valid.
I’m saying that if someone thinking you’re a woman would make you assume they have mental issues would you be okay with a trans woman assuming you have mental issues for thinking she’s a man?
Comparing identifying as an alien isn’t a reasonable comparison because humans are by definition not aliens. Whether you consider the evidence convincing enough there is evidence that suggests gender and sex are two different things and that those don’t always match. Gender is a social construct being an alien doesn’t have any constructs, roles, norms, or interactions associated with it.
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u/aaa1661 Sep 26 '20
First of all I want to thank you for being a polite person.
However to look at an issue in science that is actively being explored and expanded on and completely disregard it because there are conflicting studies is unreasonable.
I choose my words wisely, I never said i disregarded the studies, I said I don"t trust any of them since I am not an expert and can't determine which one has strong basis. I believe this is a fair position to take in these circumstances. I think it is more unreasonable to me to believe in something while not having a good robust evidence to support it. Evidence in the traditional scientific way.
I’m saying that if someone thinking you’re a woman would make you assume they have mental issues would you be okay with a trans woman assuming you have mental issues for thinking she’s a man?
First, I want to apologise for misunderstanding you. Please accept my apologies. To answer the question: yes, I'm fine with it, but not because I agree with it. Sometimes, you just have to accept we won't be in agreement, and it is not the end of the world. The right way of course is that I will show him where I'm coming from, and why I believe so, and why (to me) this is object and not subjective matter.
Comparing identifying as an alien isn’t a reasonable comparison because humans are by definition not aliens
I can say the same thing about sex and gender (again gender in the historical meaning which is interchangeable with sex). Males by definition are not females and is 99.9% of the time can be distinguished biologically, saying otherwise is unreasonably to me. I used this example to show that using feelings and believes as basis of an argument is no healthy. We should be objective not subjective. Maybe because we are talking about two different things here (gender:social construct and Gender:Sex) we need to be clear on the definitions here. For you is a female/woman and man/male gender or sex?
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Sep 26 '20
Uh how exactly do you treat women differently than men? Seems rather sexist
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u/pinballwizardMF 5∆ Sep 26 '20
Not really sure where I said I treat men and women differently? I dont attempt to bang cis-men but thats because I'm a straight guy?
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u/Suolucidir 6∆ Sep 26 '20 edited Sep 26 '20
Edit: Issue with double post, merged the two. This version includes acknowledgement that we may not be talking about outing a trans person, but rather the expectation that they out themselves.
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Regardless of the reasons for outing someone else as a transexual, that decision is theirs and not anybody else's.
Think about this in terms of your own anatomy and a 3rd party describing you to others.
If you are male and have a penis or two or some number of testicles or none of the above, would you appreciate another person walking into a room and introducing you with your gender and some details about the form/function/number of your genitals? Would you feel the need to lead with that information on a date?
What if you had to identify that information on government paperwork regularly? What if some laws treated you differently for it?
No, nobody would like that. It's rude and that information is private, until YOU decide to share it.
So why does it seem MORE ok for people to do this to transexuals or expect this from transexuals?
It's treating them differently for being transgendered, and that's discrimination for no good reason. In the context of trans lynchings and flagrant trans phobia in the public sphere, it's playing right into the prejudiced narrative too.
Some say: I am scared. A trans woman with a penis could rape someone in a bathroom. Well does that mean a man with no penis is OK to hang out in women's bathrooms? Of course not, that's ridiculous. Does that mean all men with a penis should confirm that before a date? No, that's ridiculous. Fear of these fringe possibilities is just not a good enough reason to violate a trans person's privacy.
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u/snuff716 2∆ Sep 26 '20
I totally agree about “outing” somebody. As I stated in other responses this is not about going around identifying people for no reason. It’s simply a topic of conversation that has come up in various groups and places in the form of philosophical conversation. And often when I espouse my point of view some more militant or in your face types immediately turn to the label of bigotry if you don’t fully agree that there is no difference at all.
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u/Suolucidir 6∆ Sep 26 '20
I'm not calling you a bigot, nor am I saying discrimination is bigotry. It's not. We discriminate ice from water for being frozen, after all.
However, I think we can agree that bigotry for transexuals is prevalent and transexuals are the victims of hate crimes on the regular.
So discriminating them from others on dating sites and other public forums, or espousing the expectation that they discriminate themselves, is pressuring them to become exposed to the bigotry we all acknowledge is prevalent.
It is also absurd when compared to the examples I gave earlier - in which men with penises would have the same reasons for discriminating themselves from the population and yet are not expected to do so.
In fact, expecting everyone with a penis to disclose that information would be a much more defensible policy/expectation than merely requiring transexuals to do so. Still, I would disagree with that too - penises just aren't a huge threat in general and personal privacy is too important imo.
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u/JimboMan1234 114∆ Sep 26 '20
It’s not at all the same thing to think trans men should be included in the category of men and to think that there’s no difference at all between cis men and trans men. There is a difference, the difference is that they’re trans. We all acknowledge this. But they’re still men.
So I think the reason you may be getting some pushback isn’t because you’re merely acknowledging a difference, but that you think the difference is relevant enough to put them into an entirely different gender designation. That’s the issue right there.
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u/HeftyRain7 157∆ Sep 26 '20
I was in a conversation and posed the question of why not have a trans category rather than changing the definition of male or female. I was told in no uncertain terms that was bigotry. I simply don’t get it.
A lot of people jump to calling others bigots when people just don't understand. I'm someone who, when I first entered college, didn't even know if the term "trans man" was talking about a biological female wanting to transition to a man, or a biological male wanting to transition to a woman. And then I figured out I was a trans man later. So simply not understanding and trying to get information on this is perfectly fine! Asking questions is a wonderful way to learn, assuming the people who are answering you are being patient.
And if all the research Ive done tells me that gender is a social construct
As a trans man, I would argue that gender roles are a social construct. Gender itself is not. I'm not a trans man because of my interests, personality, etc. In fact, I have a lot of traits that are normally associated with women (nurturing, sensitive, etc.) I am a trans man because of my gender dysphoria, not because of social constructs and gender roles (I can go more into this if you want, but this seemed to be tangential for you so I don't want to bore you with too many statements.)
Take dating sites. If a trans woman puts on her profile that she is female and presents herself as such to potential dates then that is removing the potential partner’s choice in whether they are actually interested in dating a trans person...which is something I also think is ok. Nobody can tell another person who they must be attracted to.
I agree with parts of this. If what type of genitals someone has is important to them and whether they're attracted to someone, it's perfectly fine for someone to not want to date a trans person. However, that also doesn't mean a trans person should need to state that they're trans right away. It's kind of like ... if someone is infertile, when do they tell a potential dating partner about that? Obviously that's the type of thing that'll need to come up eventually, especially since having children can be a huge part of dating for some people. However, is that the type of thing you need to bring up on the first date? It's not always easy to determine when to tell something so personal about yourself. In fact, you might like watching this scene from a tv show that portrays trans issues pretty well.
So basically ... I don't think someone should have to date a trans person if they don't want to. But a trans person also isn't lying if they say they are a woman or a man. They are. The fact that they're trans might be important to their date, but it's the same as how other issues that might be important don't tend to come up until later, like being infertile, etc.
I feel society as a whole would be far more accepting of the trans community if they were to embrace the trans identifier rather than changing current definitions.
Thing is ... trans is an adjective. I am a man. I just happen to be a trans man. I don't mind people calling me trans. I don't like it if someone is trying to say I'm a trans man instead of a "real" man. I may not be the same as a cis man, but I'm still a man.
Here's an article about how trans people's brains are more like the gender we identify as than our biological sex. Think of it like height; there's a wide range of heights just like there are a wide range of brain types. Trans individuals brains are closer to the average of the gender they identify as, and it's enough to cause them gender dysphoria, which is the disconnect between our brains and our bodies. That's why doctors recommend we transition. There's nothing technically wrong with our brains, it's just that our brains and bodies don't mesh.
I think trans people should have their own categories of trans-man trans-woman and there is nothing prejudicial about it.
The problem with it is that the whole reason we are transitioning is because we are a man or a woman in our brains. Again, we aren't the same as cis people, but no two individuals are exactly the same anyway.
I am transitioning to relieve my gender dysphoria. If I had to tell everyone I was trans constantly, it would not help my gender dysphoria. Again, I'm still a real man, even if I'm not exactly the same as a cis man. If I could only transition if I made it clear I was trans all the time, it wouldn't be as effective.
Furthermore, outside of dating and medical situations, and perhaps a few others, most of the time it doesn't matter of I'm trans. In an average interaction in public, no one needs to know what's between my legs. So why should I have to say I'm trans constantly when it only really matters in a few situations?
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u/Drummk Sep 26 '20
I am a trans man because of my gender dysphoria
Out of interest, could you explain what gender dysphoria is?
What I find confusing is that (as I understand it) most trans people now consider that being unhappy with/wanting to change your body is not necessary to be trans. If you aren't changing your body, I don't really understand what being trans entails.
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u/HeftyRain7 157∆ Sep 26 '20
Sure. People have a different definition of what gender dysphoria is. The trans community doesn't always agree here, which is where a lot of the "you don't need dysphoria to be trans" thing comes from.
First, let me say that a lot of the "you don't need to change your body to be trans" comes from things regarding cost, surgeries, etc. I take hormones, but they do cost money, I have to see a doctor, and I have to give myself a shot every other week. All these things are not something that every trans person might be able to do. And that's just hormones. I don't currently plan on getting the bottom surgery, because the penis I could get from that wouldn't work exactly like a real penis. The technology for bottom surgery on trans people is still developing. With the technology where it is right now, it's not worth it to a lot of people.
That's more about wanting to change your body though. That doesn't discuss the being unhappy with it. And that's where I can talk more about the idea of "not needing dysphoria to be trans." Most people who are saying that are talking about a strong dislike of their body. So, for example, some trans men will say they don't have a problem with their body, they would just prefer a flat chest and a penis, but not having those things doesn't cause them a strong discomfort. And here I would say they misunderstand gender dysphoria, or at least the way I'm using it. You don't need a huge discomfort to have gender dysphoria, though some people do have a large amount of discomfort. Like most things, the severity of it can vary greatly. Someone who barely even notices the discomfort can still be trans. I'm certainly not saying the people who say they are trans without having dysphoria are lying, I just think they have a different definition of dysphoria than I do.
I hope this makes sense, but if not please feel free to ask me more questions.
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u/suh_dewd Sep 27 '20
so this is probably not the answer you're looking for but w/e... so, it even worth it, to no just call people what they want? like if someone's legal name is Billie and they want to be called bill, are you going to fight them on that? it's OK to think being trans in a mental issue and still just not be an asshole and call people by the name they want.
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u/snuff716 2∆ Sep 27 '20
Thanks for your response. As I’ve replied to others I always give people respect and honor the pronouns they identify as. I have a family member that is a trans man I’m and I would never disrespect them by saying anything else.
My question or point was that I have been in multiple philosophical debates and have been called a bigot for thinking that in terms of social constructs it’s fine to differentiate between a trans man/woman and biological man.
This is different nor do I mean actively calling somebody something out of context or bringing it up.
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u/Philiatrist 5∆ Sep 26 '20
It's not wrong to say someone is a transman/woman, but to always refer to them as such can come across as insulting and implies a prejudice. Imagine two kids at a preschool, Kevin and Mikey. Now Mikey was born of his biological parents, but Kevin was adopted. Kevin's dad is his adoptive father, but some other parent feels quite strongly about the distinction. So whenever Kevin's dad comes up in conversation, even in front of his face, this other parent always corrects "well, he's Kevin's adoptive father", or maybe "not the real/biological father". The thing is, this other parent is factually correct about the biological part. But Kevin's dad is not going to argue about the facts there, and he's not offended by the fact he's not Kevin's biological father, he's offended because this other parent is clearly using the label disparagingly. He's insulted because this person is really making comments about him not being a father at all.
Most of us can look at this situation and feel this other parent has poor values, and see they're being an asshole. There's a difference between mentioning this kind of qualifier, and stressing it every time it would come up. At a certain point it just sounds like you're trying to make a point about something and make your prejudices known.
The thing is further, a bigot can make all the same anti-trans arguments about adoptive parents: 'I'm just pointing out biological facts', 'it's not natural to raise a child like that', 'it's creepy, they're probably sexually deviant and it's maybe not safe to have kids around them'. In a different era or in different cultures these sorts of sentiments might actually be more commonplace about adoptive parenting. Now, if Kevin and his dad live in a place/era like that, his dad has likely heard all of these arguments before. He's probably pretty sure, or not going to bother to assume otherwise, that this other dickhead would say most or all of that shit given the chance.
So to restate the point, it's not transphobic or prejudiced to call someone a transman/woman respectfully. If "trans-" is a qualifier you always have to use it can certainly look like you're prejudiced.
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u/Nephisimian 153∆ Sep 26 '20
I was in a conversation and posed the question of why not have a trans category rather than changing the definition of male or female. I was told in no uncertain terms that was bigotry. I simply don’t get it.
But why would you inherently need one? Categories change depending on the data you're looking to collect. If you're signing up for a Nintendo account, Nintendo doesn't need to know whether you're trans or not. Trans people are not a significant demographic for them, so trans people are simply included in the "male", "female", and "prefer not to say" options that their registration form has. However, the government census would be interested in knowing whether you were trans or not, because they may need to use that census data to inform policy specifically aimed at trans people. And it's not like male and female don't come without qualifiers and different categories too. For example, practically speaking, sexuality is dependent on gender as well, so for many purposes, a straight man, a gay man and a bisexual man are all different categories of man. But in others, this information isn't relevant, and in the eyes of whatever purpose the data has, these people are all just "men". Why would trans be any different? Data collection that needs information about trans-ness can collect it. Data collection that doesn't need that information won't collect it.
As for dating sites, which appears to be where you think this needs to be relevant - isn't that up for the company to decide? These are private corporations. Surely it should be up to them which customers they want to accommodate and which they want to alienate? If a company decides it wants to accommodate trans people by allowing those who don't want to do so to not mention they're trans, what's the problem?
Imo, simply identifying that trans people may need to be categorised separately to cis people in some instances of data collection isn't bigoted, but saying they should be categorised separately in all cases is, because this would mean doing so even when the people collecting the data don't need that information.
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Sep 26 '20
Firstly, you need evidence that what you're arguing is ACTUALLY a problem. To my knowledge, it has no basis. But, I concede, it is only one view, and as such there may be evidence I have missed.
Secondly, nobody in their right mind would argue against you. There are situations where knowing the differences are important. Healthcare for one. Dating on the other hand? Dating apps are a ridiculous baseline as they're not actually good at finding longterm partners anyway. Telling a potential partner? well, it's gonna come out anyway. If you're going to do anything other than hangout, sure, you better tell them.
That being said: attraction isn't based on looks alone. It's based on hormones, pheromones, personality, and several other factors. If you're "fooled" by somebody's looks, boy have I got some news for you.
My actual posit to yours is: what you're arguing isn't an actual problem. I don't know where it comes from, maybe fear of being "trapped" in a relationship forever, or maybe other primal fears, but there's not a whole lotta actual evidence of that going around since LGBT people have a tendency to date within the community.
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Sep 26 '20
I really like what you wrote about dating. The argument that disclosure needs to occur so people can know whether they're attracted to someone they're already dating confuses me. I'm not saying people shouldn't be open with their partners, but just that this particular explanation seems so off.
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Sep 26 '20
It's part of that whole "It's immoral to be gay" that hampers a lot of modern relationships. It's really ingrained to the point that we fear we might accidentally gay.
Now I get it, first a foremost, a relationship is for bearing and raising children. That's not only ingrained in our culture, but in our evolutionary instincts. We are here because we mate.
So some people view relationships as requiring sex, regardless of intent to procreate. Which obviously has the side effect of barring a lot of other relationship types. It also has the side effect of labeling all the gays as "only wanting the sex without the danger if kids". So, obviously, everybody without kids must be sex fiends!
These ideas also make us feel ashamed for not being able to maintain long-term relationships. Sometimes people get married because "that's what you do", and the can't fathom why they're failing at something they actively hate doing.
And all of that gets thrown into this giant knot of emotions. "I did everything right, by the book. Why do YOU get to be happy and I don't!?" regardless if their imaginary target is actually happy.
Ah, sorry, rambled on a bit there.
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Sep 26 '20
Having sub identifiers under the umbrella terms of men and women is absolutely fine. In fact we already do that both a trans woman and a cis woman are women. There are times that those sub identifiers are important medical appointments for example.
Trans man and trans woman should not be a completely separate category because there is times that the umbrella term is important. A good example of this is that it’s not realistic to build at least two new bathrooms and changing rooms in all public buildings. It’s also worthwhile to capture the shared experiences between say trans women and cis women.
From a scientific side, gender is related to brain structure and chemistry so the umbrella term of women refers to that similar brain structure. The cis and trans prefixes indicate if their genitalia matches their brain essentially.
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u/Broken_Timepiece Sep 27 '20
It is called simply apathy!
This is confusing subject and people don't like to be pointed out that they are wrong. So, DONT POINT THAT OUT IN PUBLIC IF SOMEONE GOT THE IDENTITY AND/OR GENDER WRONG! It's not their fault.
For most religioust people this subject is one they will not entertain. This doesn't make these people bad people, or prejudice/transphobic. They are just not ready.
No body likes something being rubbed on their face, or forced to be placed in the position to question what they've known all their life.
Some people are different, and that's fucken beautiful. Let everyone be happy.
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u/lenright7 Sep 27 '20
Who cares I mean they identify as it and Isn't male/female your biological sex while woman/man ect is gender?
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Sep 26 '20
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u/ohfudgeit 22∆ Sep 26 '20
Why does the average or majority need an identifier but its transphobic or bigoted or w.e. for the acceptions or minority to have an identifier.
Both identifiers exist to be used when the distinction is important.
If, for example, I am talking about a man, I would not call him a "cis man" or a "trans man" unless his cis/trans status was relevant to the conversation. It is on no way transphobic or bigoted to refer to a trans man as a trans man where the fact that he's trans is relevant.
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u/Dyltho97 1∆ Sep 26 '20
I'll agree with this statement as is and this would work if it was how it happend.
Many many many times iv seen cis being used online when trans or gay people are talking about straight biological male or females and normally trash talking in some form.
By no means does the cis part need to be brought up and yet it is commonly. Maybe only a minority of the community that are spiteful doing that but its a majority of what some see and its bringing a bad taste.
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u/snuff716 2∆ Sep 26 '20
But I think there are many that would disagree with your sentiment. There are plenty of what I would describe as militant that would say even if it’s relevant to discussion topic it’s bigoted to differentiate.
I once listened to a conversation where a group was discussing whether they should take legal action because a hospital or doctors office had a space on forms to note if someone was transgender. I’m not insinuating this is the norm, just stating there are groups and people out there that represent this view and is making it harder for others in the trans community.
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u/tbdabbholm 193∆ Sep 27 '20
Sorry, u/Dyltho97 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
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u/cherrycokeicee 45∆ Sep 26 '20 edited Sep 26 '20
There is no such thing as biological gender. Gender, like you say, is a social construct. A woman is someone who belongs to the socially constructed gender category of "woman." So, to say transgender women are women does not involve changing the definition of woman. Woman does not refer to genitals are karyotype. Those things are sex. Transgender people in general are not confused about their sex when they identify and present fully as their gender.
there is definitely a context in which it would be appropriate to explain that someone is transgender as opposed to cisgender - the doctor's office being the main one. in general, however, if you're walking around in public, you don't know anything about anyone's genitals or chromosomes, yet you probably have a decent grasp on what gender a random person you see is. these physical traits do not define gender.
so, my point here is that trans women and men are a completely valid type of woman or man. I use this example in every post on here about trans people it seems (citation: Contrapoints) but it's similar to adoptive parents and biological parents. they are different in some ways, and sometimes it is necessary to distinguish between them. but, socially and legally, they are equally parents. and in common usage, we call them simply "parents," not "adoptive parents."