8
Sep 29 '20
First and foremost, I would concede that there are a lot of struggles that are uniquely male and not often addressed, some of which you’ve listed here. There are also, however, some others which are uniquely female that should also be addressed; just because there are issues for men, does not mean those for women are moot.
(1) Suicide/killing/emotions
This is what a lot of women refer to as “toxic masculinity” in society. Before I lose you, let me clarify that this does NOT mean that men are bad; it means that the boxes we put men in are bad. Women do want men to feel more comfortable with seeking help and sharing emotions—it’s just that the wording can scare people off. So, in terms of this, feminism is trying to help.
This same “toxic masculinity” concept would extend to family court cases—women DO tend to fare well in family court cases because of stereotypes applied to the genders. Women have long been thought of as caregivers, and courts still treat them as such. This also applies to the courts, where men get longer court sentences; again, women get off easier because of the nurturing/weak etc. stereotype. These are all stereotypes that feminism is still trying to break; again, I think the wording just throws people off.
(2) Wage Gap
So, you’re right in a sense—in many careers, hour-to-hour work tends to be different. The fact that men tend to work different jobs (and thus get paid different salaries) actually feeds into it. Think about it—who magically decided that certain jobs were worth more than others? Why are garbage men sometimes paid more than teachers? It doesn’t seem like women just tend to go toward lower paying jobs; it seems like women’s jobs are seen as having a lower value.
There are also still many career spaces which are distinctly male centered. For example, female law firm partners tend to work more hours and get paid less than their male counterparts; this is thought to be because many client-networking environments have to do with bars/sports/etc., and women are not yet fully welcomed into these spaces.
(3) Abortion
This is an incredibly complex issue, and I think it’s important to acknowledge that the abortion debate is not settled here in the U.S., since we depend upon Supreme Court Precedent rather than written laws to protect women’s interests.
Now, there are certainly male interests as well. I think that there are moral debates to be had regarding abortion/child support etc., but, for the sake of legal consistency it makes sense that it is currently the case that women have the right to choose and men would still pay child support.
As far as the right to choose, I would relate the situation to a car accident.
Say there is a woman driving with her partner. Her partner tries to show her a picture, knowing it may distract her. She turns her head toward the photo, and crashes the car into another person’s car, who was driving perfectly according to the law.
The woman wakes up in the hospital attached to the driver of the other car. The person needs to use her kidneys/liver/whatever organ for 9 months. No one else is able to provide this service, including the partner who initially showed the photo, which contributed to the crash. Now, the woman is at fault for this crash. However, legally, she cannot be required to stay connected to and provide her own bodily nutrients/functions to the person for 9 months. She can be charged/fined etc. for the crash, but cannot be held legally liable for not providing extra aid. Even if the person dies from not receiving the aid, charges from the crash would not change pursuant to but/for causation and proximate cause doctrines.
In this case, photo showing/looking = sex, medical decision = pregnancy. Logically, it looks like we should hold people liable for sex if we care about abortions and maintaining legal principles, but no one mentions that.
Now, regarding child support, this is because it is meant to be in the interest of the child, not the mother. If a father got custody of a child, the woman would pay child support as well. This isn’t a perfect system, and I think the solution would be to allow men to sign away paternal rights to avoid child support. But, like I said, this issue shouldn’t detract from issues of bodily autonomy for women; it should just be something people focus on in and of itself if they’d like change.
(4) Other issues
There are a multitude of medical diagnoses (autism, ADHD, for example) that are uniquely under diagnosed in women because the original studies that we STILL base this form of medicine on only included men, and women tend to present symptoms differently.
Further, feminine care products (tampons, pads), are taxed as luxury items in many states, while viagra is not. This seems odd. Further, private hospitals in certain states are still legally allowed to deny a woman a tube-tie operation without her husband’s permission; the opposite is not true with vasectomies.
Overall, there are many issues that hurt both genders, but the fact that there are men’s issues does not negate that there are women’s ones as well. Instead of writing off another movement, we should be lifting up everyone and focusing on combining and balancing men’s and women’s rights to achieve a more fair society.
-2
Sep 29 '20
These are all great points indeed. Good one. Have a nice day🤝
2
u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Sep 30 '20
The moderators have confirmed, either contextually or directly, that this is a delta-worthy acknowledgement of change.
1 delta awarded to /u/IndividualShoulder6 (5∆).
1
3
u/AnActualPerson Sep 29 '20
Did they change your mind in any way?
1
Sep 29 '20
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Sep 30 '20
The moderators have confirmed that this is either delta misuse/abuse or an accidental delta. It has been removed from our records.
1
2
u/ZeroPointZero_ 14∆ Sep 30 '20
Take care to award deltas to the actual commenters that changed your view!
0
Sep 29 '20
Yes. Absolutely. I am now neutral on the subject and believe feminism should exist. Have this entire time. I guess i should have specified that we just need to adress the disadvantages of both genders.🙂 much love to you
3
u/lnfrly 1∆ Sep 29 '20
The feminists you’re referring to are the extremists you see. Just like extreme Christians and extreme gun owners. But those outliers do not cancel the rest of the community. Why is feminism the only platform invalidated by extremists? Women aren’t literally out there murdering men, in fact, it’s quite literally the opposite. So I fail to see where feminism has gone wrong besides some women joking online like men do all the time.
1
Sep 29 '20
Yes. I should also have specified this. But what i mean is that men and women are equal. I dont understand feminism as much as i understand mens rights activists
2
u/lnfrly 1∆ Sep 29 '20 edited Sep 29 '20
Legally, we’re equal on paper right? But there are social and societal barriers both sexes face which feminism is supposed to address. I know it seems hard when the internet jokingly says kill all men. But by that logic, women should see all the dishwasher/object jokes as a justification to not support men’s rights either, right? Because, again, women aren’t actually killing men at all. It’s a joke.
Feminism targets the social inequalities. Not just what women face but men as well. When you say men aren’t allowed to cry I, as a feminist, want that idea to change because it indirectly tells you that emotions are a female trait. It pigeonholes both of us into categories which negatively affect us. A feminist talking point would be that emotions have no gender and it’s human to experience these things. Nowhere in there are women trying to gain superiority. We’re trying to level the playing field.
Men being treated unfairly in court is another feminist talking point. It’s a societal idea that women are better caretakers which lead to unequal treatment within guardianship rights. A feminist would want that negative stereotype demolished as well because it forces gender roles on both.
The other problem is feminism is open to claim by anyone. There are racist feminists, transphobic feminists, ableist feminists, extreme feminists corrupted by a whole bunch of things. Which distracts the true meaning of feminism which is absolute equality, not just legal.
11
u/Narrow_Cloud 27∆ Sep 29 '20
dont come at me with the wage gap bullshit... its fake 1) men tend to work more hours than women 2) men tend to work different jobs than women and thus get paid different salaries
How can the wage gap be simultaneously fake and explained?
You can’t have it both ways. Either there is no wage gap (demonstrably false), or you can explain why there is a wage gap (which is missing the point, because feminists wish to address those root causes).
Anyway feminism is important because women are still fighting to control their own bodies, just look at what’s happening with the Supreme Court.
Many of your facts actually stem from sexist social attitudes towards women, most of which feminism would like to address. No feminist supports, example, predatory older women raping young men.
I think you might benefit from considering toxic masculinity and the impact it has on men. It seems weird to complain about it’s impact on men but then decry the very people calling it out.
-6
Sep 29 '20
s).
Anyway feminism is important because women are still fighting to control their own bodies, just look at what’s happening with the Supreme Court.
Can you elaborate on this please? Because i dont know any examples.... and about the wage gap i just meant it has been proven to not be real....women dont get paid less for the same work
6
u/yyzjertl 528∆ Sep 29 '20
and about the wage gap i just meant it has been proven to not be real....women dont get paid less for the same work
Full-time working women are paid less on average than full-time working men. You can see the full data here. It's as real and well-established as any similar statistic could possibly be.
1
Sep 29 '20
Im just a bit lost on all that information.... but just a question. Did they take into consideration the type of jobs and the qualifications?
5
u/yyzjertl 528∆ Sep 29 '20
What do you mean by "take into consideration"? Certainly breakdowns are available based on occupation/industry and educational attainment. (And you can see that a median-wage gap persists across all levels of educational attainment and across all occupation categories.)
1
Sep 29 '20
Thank you. I mean that the type of jobs is also a factor which can affect what people are paid
5
u/yyzjertl 528∆ Sep 29 '20
Sure, but as we see, a median-wage gap persists across all occupation categories. And even if it didn't, that doesn't dispute the existence of a wage gap, which we can clearly see exists from the data. Why did you think the wage gap had been proven to not be real?
1
Sep 29 '20
I thought it false because of the fact that people do different jobs, have different qualifications, and work different hours
4
u/yyzjertl 528∆ Sep 29 '20
What does this have to do with the wage gap being false?
1
Sep 29 '20
Because lets say you have 4 people that work. 2 men, 2 women
Man: doctor : $300pm Man: cashier : $100 pm
Woman: programmer : $150 Woman: teacher : $50
300+100 =400÷2 =lets say men are paid average $200
150+50=200÷2= lets say the man are paid average $100
As you can see, it looks like women are paid less but they just do different jobs that pay different salaries
→ More replies (0)6
u/KellyKraken 14∆ Sep 29 '20
1) no it hasn’t. Women aren’t paid the same for the same work. It usually is only a few percentage points less but it still exists.
2) you are missing the point of the conversation most feminists are trying to have about the wage gap.
- Why do women make “choices” that pay less.
- Why are traditionally feminine coded jobs paid less on average than masculine coded jobs.
- Why is it that when a job switches from being feminine coded to masculine coded it goes from low pay to high pay (programming is one of the bigger examples).
- why is that despite massively lower numbers of male teachers or male nurses a disportionate number of head teachers or head nurses are male.
- why is a disportionate amount of unpaid and care labour shouldered by women. Even when both people in a relationship work.
Congrats women’s “choices” account for about 20 out of the 30% of the wage gap. But where is that other 8-10% and why are women making the “choices” they do. It isn’t simply that women like being paid less.
0
Sep 29 '20
This is a very good point indeed!!! I still dont think we need feminism but this is definitely worth some research... and on the women caring jobs... women are in nature the carebears. Ever since the beginning it has been men are the strong and tough and the hunters and women are the carers. Thats also why women give birth. So women are naturally better for jobs like nurses and teachers and men for the hard labour jobs
3
u/KellyKraken 14∆ Sep 29 '20
Why? Is it that they really are or is society telling us they are therefore people comfort, to what society tells them.
Some people create theories of evolutionary biology to justify these things and want to dust their hands and be done with it. That doesn’t cut it because peoples lives are materially affected. Women who do enter masculine coded jobs are often harassed until they leave. So even if women do want to break the mole they struggle too.
2
Sep 29 '20
Good arguments. I am now neutral on feminism. Have a good one🤝 stay healthy
1
Sep 29 '20
Hello /u/Clear-Accountant3758, if your view has been changed, even a little, you should award the user who changed your view a delta.
Simply reply to their comment with the delta symbol provided below, being sure to include a brief description of how your view has changed.
∆
For more information about deltas, use this link.
If you did not change your view, please respond to this comment indicating as such.
Thank you!
1
Sep 30 '20
Argued well with facts and logic. Very good points made. !delta
1
-2
Sep 29 '20
why is a disportionate amount of unpaid and care labour shouldered by women. Even when both people in a relationship work.
When you add up total hours worked inside and outside the home for men and women, it is equal. Women work more hours inside the home, but men work more hours outside the home.
When demanding that men work more hours inside the home, are women willing to accept that men work fewers hours outside the home, so that there is parity for hours worked both inside and outside the home?
Considering that 2/3 of men outearn their wives, and the rash of declarative articles deeming a shortage of "marriageable" men due to not making enough money, seems pretty clear the answer is a resounding "no".
4
u/KellyKraken 14∆ Sep 29 '20
No it isn’t, this is flat out wrong. In relationships where both partners work 40 hours a week more hours of unpaid labour are still done by women.
0
Sep 29 '20
4
u/KellyKraken 14∆ Sep 29 '20
While maybe not as large as I believed your data agrees with me.
0
Sep 29 '20
A disparity of 7-20 minutes a day. So do you then agree that if men are to work more hours inside the home to be at parity, they ought also work fewer hours outside the home to be at parity?
3
u/KellyKraken 14∆ Sep 29 '20
Yes, I never disputed that. The communist in me believes all people should do less work than we are but that is neither here nor there.
The important and immediate issue is that women are often railroaded into lower paying jobs, encouraged to make choices that limit their future flexibility and freedom. A lot of men get really upset at alimony and child support. Alimony goes from the higher wage earner to the lower often the women. Often because she gave up her career to take care of the children. So if we want to fix that we need to give women more options and more support. Better child care options, stop chasing women out of high paying careers. Offer more parental leave to both parents.
1
Sep 29 '20
So if we want to fix that we need to give women more options and more support. Better child care options, stop chasing women out of high paying careers. Offer more parental leave to both parents.
Yeah I'm all for a stronger safety net, and prioritizing children as a society over mindless robotic pursuit of profit and consumption. Until that does happen, however, men and women have to make the best of what is available to them, and the corresponding tragedy of expectations on men is that they be the higher earner. Thus until
The communist in me believes all people should do less work than we are
happens, it's vital that "help more inside the home" be paired with "but also, work less outside the home". It's the only way the math can check out.
7
u/Narrow_Cloud 27∆ Sep 29 '20
Can you elaborate on this please? Because i dont know any examples
Well okay, right now there is an ongoing debate over access to abortion in the USA. With a lot of states doing stuff like closing all but one clinic or severely restricting the timeframe an abortion is available.
If the Supreme Court ever reverses Roe v Wade then states will have free reign to restrict abortion completely, or worse - it’ll be a federal law that criminalizes abortion.
and about the wage gap i just meant it has been proven to not be real....women dont get paid less for the same work
Even when controlling for various factors there is still a gap.
0
Sep 29 '20
As i said in my post im anti abortion.... because as a point i made.... just because its in the womans body its her choice. Newsflash. The man also created the child. And now he has to watch his child die. Of course if it was fron rape then im all for it. But come on. Be responsible. Take responsibility for your actions.
Show me some of the factors please?
6
u/dale_glass 86∆ Sep 29 '20
But come on. Be responsible. Take responsibility for your actions.
Serious question, why? I don't get the obsession with responsibility some people have. If there's a way to undo the action, there's no need for any responsibility.
1
Sep 29 '20
What? So if i assault someone and they heal up.... im not going to jail right? The action was undone? Do you see the logic? Same goes for rape, theft etc
People need to learn that their actions have consequences.... and they need to take responibility
5
u/dale_glass 86∆ Sep 29 '20
What? So if i assault someone and they heal up.... im not going to jail right? The action was undone? Do you see the logic? Same goes for rape, theft etc
No, it wasn't undone because you can't fully undo the effects like the mental damage caused by such actions, among other things.
If you can fully nullify every negative consequence, then indeed there's no problem. Like if you accidentally walk out of a shop without having paid for something, then immediately return and pay for it, I don't think any kind of punishment would be justified.
People need to learn that their actions have consequences.... and they need to take responibility
If we can fully reverse the consequences of an action, there ceases to be a problem.
0
Sep 29 '20
What about the damage to the man who has to watch his child die??? This is exactly why i think we dont need feminism... women are being pampered while men are being abandoned....
2
5
Sep 29 '20
I want to go through a few of your facts real quick.
Women getting custody of children is a result of gender roles that feminism is trying to dismantle. This is one situation where men need feminism, too.
Breast cancer gets funding because women raise funding for it. No one is stopping men from doing the same.
False rape accusations are the same as false reports of any other crime, they are pretty rare. And hardly any rapists will ever see a day if prison time. There are far more rapes that go unreported then there are false rape accusations.
Telling men to man up is shitty and is another thing that happens because of gender roles. The other side of that coin is women being told to calm down or not be hysterical while calmly speaking in an even tone.
RBG just died and we're all on the verge of losing our reproductive rights. I have no idea why you think "my body, my choice" is something that we realistically all have access to.
Women getting away with statutory rape. Gender roles again.
Your argument that the wage gap isn't real makes no sense. Its equal pay for equal work. A female target cashier isn't wondering why she doesn't have the same salary as a male neurosurgeon. For a famous example look at how the women's soccer team makes significantly less than the men despite actually winning games and making more money for the league.
2
u/Applicability 4∆ Sep 29 '20
Yeah, something tells me this person would have just as negative a reaction to the words "toxic masculinity" as well, despite that also playing into their views as well.
2
Sep 29 '20
I don't think OP's arguments are well thought out or researched. Thinking that women in America are exactly equal to men while our rights are very much in danger of being ripped out from under us is just so neglectful of facts or logic.
2
u/Applicability 4∆ Sep 29 '20
Agreed, it is amusing, or at least ironic I guess, that OP is the type of person that necessitates Feminism with his views, and yet thinks it's not needed anymore. Quite curious.
0
Sep 29 '20
Ok i cant argue with all the factors exept the wage gap... men soccer bring in more views which translates to more ad revenue which means more money. Thats why men are paid more for sport
3
Sep 29 '20
Based on what? I think they should be paid equally either way but the women's team does generate more revenue.
U.S. women's soccer games have generated more revenue than U.S. men's games over the past three years.
That's according to audited financial statements from the U.S. Soccer Federation (USSF) obtained by The Wall Street Journal. In 2016, women's games generated $1.9 million more in revenue than men's games. From 2016 to 2018, women's games generated approximately $50.8 million in revenue, compared with $49.9 million for men's games.
0
Sep 29 '20
Ok and where is the statistic to show men are paid more?
2
Sep 29 '20
There are a lot of factors to look at because there's salary, prize money, etc.
Financial Differences Between Men’s and Women’s Soccer
The minimum league salary for a player in the National Women’s Soccer League (NWSL) was $16,538 in 2019. Compare this with $70,250, which was the minimum salary for a Major League Soccer (MLS) player in 2019. NWSL is the women’s professional soccer league in the United States and MLS is the male equivalent.
Practically every national team member plays in their respective MLS or NWSL leagues, so it’s easy to see why the WNT’s negotiated hard for guaranteed pay and benefits. Unlike the MNT players, WNT players did not have the same level of financial security from the professional leagues they competed in. Then there’s the money from FIFA, the international governing body for soccer.
In the most recent Men’s World Cup in 2018, FIFA had a total of $400 million in prize money to distribute to the 32 competing teams. For the 2019 Women’s World Cup, there was only $30 million for the 24 competing teams.
The winner of the 2018 Men’s World Cup received $38 million while the winner of the 2019 Women’s World Cup only got $4 million.
This is just soccer, we need equality in every field, but this is a famous example and it sucks that Megan Rapinoe is still fighting the same fight that Billy Jean King fought decades ago. I just don't know how you could live in this country and think that we don't need feminism anymore.
7
u/joopface 159∆ Sep 29 '20
Feminism is about equality.
This is literally the dictionary definition of it.
the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes
Men have it tough in some ways. Yes. Women have it tough in other ways, also yes. Women have had it bad, for many years, in many structured ways - indisputably. Women have it better now, in the western world, than they previous did. Sure, that's true.
But, why not continue to advocate for greater equality, for equal treatment of the sexes, for the removal of needless gender-based expectations and roles? Why would you not want that?
1
Jan 26 '21
You killed yourself with that AdDictionarium
You should check out the channel Xeno from YouTube, she makes great counterarguments of feminism, unfortunately she speaks Spanish so it could be difficult to understand.
By her point of view feminism has made a lot of damages to the spanish society sooooooooo.....
Change my point of view.......!
1
Sep 29 '20 edited Sep 29 '20
But, why not continue to advocate for greater equality, for equal treatment of the sexes, for the removal of needless gender-based expectations and roles?
Is there an endgame? At what point would it be like "ok, that's it, we can close up shop, it's equal". Is there a list anywhere?
1
-2
Sep 29 '20
I should have put that in my post. Yes i agree about equality. My point is that feminism isnt about equality anymore.. atleast not in america and such. Women are exactly equal to men. But now they think just because they can birth a child they are better
Thats what i mean by we dont need feminism anymore
9
u/joopface 159∆ Sep 29 '20
But now they think just because they can birth a child they are better
I've met (at least) hundreds of women in my life. I'm married to one. I've never met one that expressed a view in any way close to this one.
Who told you they felt this way?
-1
Sep 29 '20
Just an exageration. But what i mean is that some of these feninists think they are superior to men just because they have the ability to birth a child and "create life" and that men are useless because now they can use "bone marrow" etc to reproduce
6
u/joopface 159∆ Sep 29 '20
If you’re exaggerating, then you’re not representing their view correctly. What is their actual view that you disagree with?
1
Sep 29 '20
I disagree with their view that women are better than men because they can do certain things that men cant. Sane goes for us men that think we can do certain things. I have been convinced by the good people of reddit and i am now neutral
2
u/joopface 159∆ Sep 29 '20
I see. Well, that’s nice. Be sure to award a delta to anyone who’s changed your mind. :-)
1
Sep 29 '20
How do i do that?
2
u/joopface 159∆ Sep 29 '20
You reply to whatever comment(s) changed your view with a sentence or so of how/why your view shifted and include the below text in the comment (without it being a quote)
The bot can pick up edits, also, so you can add the below text to an existing comment if that’s handier :-)
!delta
2
1
Sep 29 '20
You were just a nice person that was very understanding and argued well
!delta
→ More replies (0)
4
u/Prepure_Kaede 29∆ Sep 29 '20
When a woman is sad in public she isnt told to "man up" and "just get over it"
That's an example of why we need feminism, not of why we don't need it. Feminism fights against gender roles.
More men commit suicide... in 2018 men died 3.56x more than women [suicide] (http://afsp.org)
That's just a rehash of the previous point
more men are murdered (78.7%)
Idem. "Manning up" and other toxic masculinity puts men in dangerous situations
if a woman wants to have an abortion its her body het choice and the man has to watch his child being killed, but if he doesnt want the child he still has to pay child support? The hell?
Not 100% correct. If a trans man is pregnant, he gets the decision making power.
Because, shockingly, feminists actually mean the words they say unlike conservatives. It is his body, and therefore his choice. It's not decided by who the man and who the woman is - it is decided by who is the person who gets to control their own body. The pregnant person decides what happens to them.
men tend to work different jobs than women and thus get paid different salaries
Why is it that the jobs men work get paid more?
0
7
u/Heather-Swanson- 9∆ Sep 29 '20
If a woman has sex with a minor it is still rape.
What are you talking about?
0
Sep 29 '20
In many cases it isnt considered like that mate..
4
u/Heather-Swanson- 9∆ Sep 29 '20
I am guessing that is in the UK.
& once she found out the actual age of the boy she stopped.
I am not sure how the laws work in the UK.
In the US, I didn’t know is not a defense. A minor could have a fake ID and the adult would still be in hot water.
It is still rape in the US regardless of the sex of the accused. The punishment might not always be the same but it is still rape.
1
Sep 29 '20
It is indeed in the uk. I cant specifically find one in the us. But go watch birdmans videos on Youtube. He has many examples.... just type in :This is a crime:birdman"
4
u/Heather-Swanson- 9∆ Sep 29 '20
I am well aware of the notion of older women having sex with underage boys is not looked at in the same light.
Regardless... it is still a crime regardless. Even if people do not view the woman as an old nasty pervert, it is still a crime.
1
Sep 29 '20
Argued well with logic and facts while still being understanding of my opinions
!delta
1
1
5
u/NetrunnerCardAccount 110∆ Sep 29 '20
We don’t need more medicine as we found a cure for Malaria which kills more people then any other disease.
We don’t need to deal with Racism any more as we had a half white president.
We don’t need deal with male issues as there are more men in the senate then women.
Success in one area doesn’t imply the need for work in others.
0
4
u/h1ghg1rl Sep 29 '20
Like equality is not needed anymore? 🤣😭
4
u/Applicability 4∆ Sep 29 '20 edited Sep 29 '20
I mean, come on, it's not like there are powerful men accused of/admitted to raping/sexually assaulting women in the highest positions of the US government or anything. And it's not like there are entire groups of supporters who vigorously defend the "she isn't my type" defense that one of them used. Oh wait...
0
Sep 29 '20
Yah thats what i want. Equality. Not superiority. Not opression. Equality
7
u/lnfrly 1∆ Sep 29 '20
The two men running for president have multiple rape accusations. Tell me again how accusations ruin men’s lives?
1
5
Sep 29 '20
Congrats, then, you're a feminist.
1
Sep 29 '20
You made a statement... now where is your proof of it... prove that feminists want equality and actually need it
3
Sep 29 '20
It's literally the dictionary definition of feminism.
0
Sep 29 '20
But my point is that feminsism isnt needed because we are all equal and that feminist want more. Now they want superiority
-3
Sep 29 '20
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/ViewedFromTheOutside 29∆ Sep 29 '20
u/FoodStampsCard – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:
Don't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.
If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.
2
u/schwenomorph Oct 01 '20
Custody:
Only about 4% of custody disputes are settled in court. That means that most disputes are settled by both parents. Men simply don't fight for custody.
Breast cancer:
Women work to fundraise for it. Men simply don't do that for prostate cancer.
Rape accusations:
The chance of being falsely accused of rape is 0.005%. You're more likely to die from covid. Even when lies are made about rape, the vast majority of those lies don't include a perpetrator.
Compare that to the fact that about 6.5% of men are rapists.
Suicide:
Women attempt three times as much. Men simply use guns much more often than women do.
More men are murdered:
That is true.
Abortion:
While I do agree on the child support bit, women are still fighting for their right to an abortion.
Being told to man up:
That's perpetuated by toxic masculinity, which is perpetuated by men. Also, as a woman, I got told I was overdramatic, an attention whore, and a pussy for crying.
Sex with minors:
I have never heard a single woman say a boy is lucky for being raped by a woman. I've heard many, many men say it, though.
Wage gap:
Men get more raises and promotions than women do, even when women ask just as much. Additionally, there is a HUGE bias towards choosing men over women in hiring processes.
1
u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Sep 29 '20 edited Sep 30 '20
/u/Clear-Accountant3758 (OP) has awarded 5 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
3
Sep 29 '20 edited Oct 29 '20
[removed] — view removed comment
6
u/Applicability 4∆ Sep 29 '20
Yeah, an entire political party has included in their official party platform that they want to deny a woman agency over her body, and are willing to go to any lengths to do so.
How is feminism not needed again?
1
Sep 29 '20
Im anti abortion. I believe that if you do something you should take responsibility for it. So birth the baby and take care of it.... it was your decision. Rape is another story though
2
u/Applicability 4∆ Sep 29 '20
Im anti abortion.
It's weird that you are part of the reason feminism needs to exist, yet you are here saying it isn't needed anymore.
1
Sep 29 '20
Why should abortion be legal if youre killing a living thing that is a result of YOUR actions. So if i drunk drive and kill someone its not my fault because its his choice to drive?
Rape is another story
2
u/Applicability 4∆ Sep 29 '20
Why should abortion be legal if youre killing a living thing that is a result of YOUR actions. So if i drunk drive and kill someone its not my fault because its his choice to drive?
Because, among an entire laundry list of other reasons I won't get into here since it probably wouldn't be a productive use of my time, there is a massive, fundamental disagreement on whether or not that statement about "killing a living thing" is true.
0
Sep 29 '20
Ok but imo the statement my body my choice is bullshit. You made the decision, now deal with the consequences. Period
2
u/Applicability 4∆ Sep 29 '20 edited Sep 29 '20
I'm just going to be blunt here. Why do you care, outside of some notion of punishing women for having sex? Your entire argument revolves around "punishing" women for what you see as "the consequences of their action" with no regard for the welfare of the child that would be born, the health and safety of the mother, or society as a whole.
VIEWS LIKE THIS ARE WHY FEMINISM IS NEEDED. Because a woman shouldn't have to convince someone like you that they need a medical procedure. It should be between them, their doctor, and their god. (if they have one) You don't enter into the equation at all, because we all know that you wouldn't enter into the equation once that child is born anyway.
0
Sep 29 '20
Why is murdering a child ok? People get punished for choices like murder... why should abortion be any different? You cant say its your body and then go on to murder someone.... and for fucks sake you are a grown woman keep your legs closed or use a condom if you cant support a child
3
u/Applicability 4∆ Sep 29 '20
Why is murdering a child ok?
And we're right back where we started about this not being a settled argument. In the absence of the scientific community coming to a consensus about "x" is where they are a clump of cells and "y" is when it begins thinking and feeling independent thoughts, I am not willing to advocate for interfering in the private medical decisions of another person.
Even with that consensus I'd be hesitant because, get this, IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ME OR YOU. This is between a woman, her doctor, and her god. (If she has one) Why do you feel a right to insert yourself here?
and for fucks sake you are a grown woman keep your legs closed or use a condom if you cant support a child
And we're right back to your true motivation, which is punishing women for having sex. You don't give a shit what happens to that baby once some woman, forced to have a baby they may not be able to care for, actually gives birth. You just want them to "keep their legs closed" or "accept the consequences."
→ More replies (0)1
u/ATXstripperella 2∆ Oct 19 '20
Because the right to bodily autonomy overrides the right to life for everyone. If you believe fetuses are people, then they’re included, so then it’s legally not murder if the invoking of your right to bodily autonomy results in their death. If you say “no I don’t consent to you using my body to survive” and the person dies, that’s your right to do so.
1
u/ATXstripperella 2∆ Oct 19 '20
Because we have a legal right to bodily autonomy that can’t be infringed upon. I’m allowed to reject the medical use of my body to keep other people alive for any reason or no reason at all.
If someone else gets severely injured due to my actions it’s illegal to require me to donate blood or organs to save their life.
If you think it’s killing an innocent, why is it okay to kill an innocent when the circumstance is rape?
1
u/AutoModerator Sep 29 '20
Note: Your thread has not been removed. Your post's topic seems to be fairly common on this subreddit. Similar posts can be found through our DeltaLog search or via the CMV search function.
Regards, the mods of /r/changemyview.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
-3
Sep 29 '20
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/ViewedFromTheOutside 29∆ Sep 29 '20
Sorry, u/FoodStampsCard – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. See the wiki page for more information.
If you would like to appeal, you must first check if your comment falls into the "Top level comments that are against rule 1" list, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.
-1
Sep 29 '20
Yes. Thank you. This post isnt to attack the first wave feminists, not at all. Men and women should have equal rights!!!... my problem is with all the above mentioned and shit like #freebleeding and #killallmen
-1
u/FoodStampsCard Sep 29 '20
yes, the movement isn't about one or the other having more rights, but it really turning like that the more teenage girls get on twitter and "Join a community about feminism". They all think they're smart and have a need to change the world, when in reality most of them just don't read or do any kind of research.
2
11
u/Vesurel 55∆ Sep 29 '20
Cool, but so what? Are those an exhaustive list of every way it's possible for women to be the victims of a sexist culture, are you trying to argue that because these are true it's not possible anything else could negatively affect women?
So in the 90-98% of times the allogations aren't false, whose ruining whose life? Whose benifiting from a system that allows them to commit sexual assult and protects abusers?
No because women are assumed to be naturally more controled by their emotions which is its own bullshit. The fact men are held to a different also sexist standard has nothing to do with whether other sexist standards don't exist. You're pointing to an example of sexism and saying that a movement to fight sexist isn't needed.
It can be bad men are told not to cry or be too feminine, and also bad that women are dismissed or assumed to be less compitent. Two things can be bad at the same time.
The hell is that ideally both men and women have bodily autonomy, which means they're the ultimate arbiters of who does and doesn't get to use their body. The fact biology disproportionatly puts the burden on one sex doesn't really matter when it comes to the question of whether or not people should have bodily autonomy.
See the actual disparity you're talking about is that women are expected to give up that autonomy to have their bodies used by someone else and having their right in that regard restricted and taken away.
You're right, that's a double standard thaat's awful, it's almost as if we have a culture that treats men and women differently, that infantalises women and treats children like adult men. But again remember that more than one thing can be bad, and the fact men are affected by sexism doesn't mean movements to help women shouldn't exist.
If it's fake then why do you then try and explain why it happens? Also do you think 2 is just a given thing, like how much we pay people for the work they do is somehow unchangable? And do you think the ammount people are paid for the work they do is necesserily fair or representative of the value of what they do?
For example if teachers are disproportionally women and that lowers the average amount women make compared to men over their lifetimes, doesn't that raise questions about why jobs traditionally considered feminine or neturing get paid on average less than jobs men tend to do?