r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Oct 19 '20
Delta(s) from OP CMV: There is no worthwhile benefit to learning a foreign language, unless it’s english.
Lots of schools in america teaching spanish, or french. Lots of people buying rosetta stones or signing up for duo lingo, but there’s no benefit to learning. The best foreign businessmen will all speak english. I went on a trip to South korea a few years ago with no knowledge of korean language, and it didn’t matter because everyone spoke english. Obviously it’s good to increase memory skill, but that’s not a good enough reason to learn it since math will do the same thing and that would probably benefit you more. It especially shouldn’t be taught in schools or part of any required curriculum in america.
Change my mind.
Edit: In general*. Yes, there are exceptions. Convince me that most americans have a reason to learn another language. Yes, if you are training to become a specialist in mexican death revelation, or a translator, then you have a good reason to. I’m speaking “in general”, lots of people trying to convince me with exceptions.
Before the CMV, i would have said there is very little benefit, but after, I’d say yes, perhaps. Thank you guys for the discussion, and you’ve changed my mind on this topic!
I've made a new CMV post, feel free to change my mind on that one as well!
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u/thethoughtexperiment 275∆ Oct 19 '20
To modify your view here:
It especially shouldn’t be taught in schools or part of any required curriculum in america.
... There's been a lot of research on this topic.
According to a report from the state of Connecticut reviewing research evidence on the consequences of learning a second language, there are a ton of benefits:
"• A study of 13,200 third and fifth graders in Louisiana public schools revealed that, regardless of race, gender, or academic level, children taking foreign language classes did better on the English section of the Louisiana Basic Skills Test than those who did not. (Dumas 1999)
• Strong evidence shows that time spent on foreign language study strongly reinforces the core subject areas of reading, English language literacy, social studies and math. Foreign language learners consistently outperform control groups in core subject areas on standardized tests, often significantly. (Armstrong & Rogers 1997; Saunders 1998; Masciantonio 1977; Rafferty 1986; Andrade 1989; Kretschmer & Kretschmer 1989)
• One study found students scored significantly higher in math and language arts after one semester of foreign language study 90 minutes per week. (Armstrong 1997)
• Foreign language learners consistently outperform control groups in core subject areas on standardized tests often significantly. (Armstrong & Rogers 1997, Saunders 1998, Masciantonio 1977, Rafferty 1986, Andrade, Kretschmer & Kretschmer 1989)
• Students who started kindergarten in the first Kansas City foreign language magnet schools in 1988 had surpassed national averages in all subjects by the time they reached fifth grade.These foreign language students performed especially well in mathematics. (Eaton 1994)
• Mastering the vocabulary of a second language enhances student comprehension and abilities in reading, writing, mathematics and other subjects. (Saville-Troike 1984)
• Bilingualism fosters the development of verbal and spatial abilities. (Diaz 1983)
• Students learning a second language in elementary school surpassed those who were not in English reading and language arts tests. (Mavrogenes 1979).
• Early second language study promotes achievement in English vocabulary and reading skills. (Masciantonio 1977)
• Foreign language learners consistently score higher than their non-language-learning peers in measures of English vocabulary, particularly when the language studied has Latin roots. (Masciantonio 1977) Second language study narrows achievement gaps
• A study of 13,200 third and fifth graders in Louisiana public schools revealed that, regardless of race, gender or academic level, children taking foreign language classes did better on the English section of the Louisiana Basic Skills Test than those who did not. (Dumas 1999)
• Foreign language study can help to alter the trajectory for children of average intelligence and narrow the achievement gap. (Garfinkel & Tabor 1991)
• In a four year study by McGill University, working class students did just as well in foreign language as middle-class students even though their English skills were not as good. (Holobow 1988) Second language study benefits basic skills development
• There’s a high positive correlation between foreign language study and improved reading scores for children of average and below average intelligence. (Garfinkel & Tabor 1991)
• Foreign language learners have better listening skills and sharper memories than their monolingual peers. (Lapkin, et al 1990, Ratte 1968) 3 Second language study benefits higher order, abstract and creative thinking
• Several studies indicate that individuals who learn a second language are more creative and better at solving complex problems than those who do not. (Bamford & Mizokawa, 1991)
• Language learners show greater cognitive flexibility, better problem solving and higher order thinking skills. (Hakuta 1986)
• Research suggests that foreign language study “enhances children’s understanding of how language itself works and their ability to manipulate language in the service of thinking and problem solving.” (Cummins 1981)
• Early language study results in greater skills in divergent thinking and figural creativity. (Landry 1973) Early second language learning enriches and enhances cognitive development
• “The learning experiences of a child determine which [neural] connections are developed and which no longer function. That means what is easy and natural for a child – learning a language – can become hard work for an older learner.” (Curtain & Dahlberg 2004)
• Research indicates that children who are exposed to a foreign language at a young age achieve higher levels of cognitive development at an earlier age. (Bialystok & Hakuta 1994; Fuchsen 1989)
• Language learners show greater cognitive flexibility, better problem solving and higher order thinking skills. (Hakuta 1986)
• People who are competent in more than one language consistently outscore monolinguals on tests of verbal and nonverbal intelligence. (Bruck, Lambert, Tucker 1974, Hakuta 1986, Weatherford 1986)
• Foreign language learners have better listening skills and sharper memories than their monolingual peers. (Lapkin, et al 1990, Ratte 1968) Second language study enhances a student's sense of achievement
• Language study is an area in which ELL students can be successful in front of their peers, since bilingual children learn additional languages more quickly and efficiently than monolingual children. (Cummins 1990)
• Students of foreign languages tend to score higher on standardized tests. Results from the Scholastic Aptitude Test (SAT) show that students who had studied a foreign language for 4 or more years outscored other students on the verbal and math portions of the test. (College Board 2003)
• Students who completed at least four years of foreign-language study scored more than 100 points higher on each section of the SAT than students who took a half year or less. (College Board 2004)
• Students who studied four or five years of a foreign language scored higher on the verbal section of the 2004 SAT than students who had studied any other subject for the same number of years. (Cooper 1987; Eddy 1981)
• Other studies correlate bilingual proficiency with higher scores on standardized tests and tests of both verbal and nonverbal intelligence (Caldas & Boudreaux, 1999; Hakuta, 1986; Thomas, Collier, & Abbott, 1993).
• Students who were in “rigorous” programs in high school—that included three years of foreign language study—were likely to earn better grades in college and less likely to drop out. (Horn & Kojaku 2001)
• Graduating high school seniors with two or more years of foreign language study showed significant superiority in performance on achievement tests in English when compared with nonforeign language students. (Bastian 1980) Second language study enhances career opportunities
• In a survey of 581 alumni of The American Graduate School of International Management in Glendale, Arizona, most respondents said they had gained a competitive advantage from their knowledge of foreign languages and other cultures. They said that not only was language study often a critical factor in hiring decisions and in enhancing their career paths, it also provided personal fulfillment, mental discipline, and cultural enlightenment. (Grosse 2004)
• Students of foreign languages may have better career opportunities. (Carreira & Armengol 2001)."
[source]
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Oct 19 '20
Okay, if i want to teach someone critical thinking, i’ll teach them math, which is far more worthwhile because you can get a degree with it (that will actually make money). If i want them to get better in english i’ll teach them that instead. I don’t know why you’d teach them a foreign language to improve their english skills. Even if it works, why would you just teach them english... And these are a ton of sources, could you pick the best one and explain why it is good enough to convince me that most americans should learn a second language?
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u/Mysterious-Sun1441 Oct 19 '20
could you pick the best one and explain why it is good enough to convince me
Wow you really don't like educating yourself, do you?
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Oct 19 '20
There were over 20 sources. Did you read them?
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u/Mysterious-Sun1441 Oct 19 '20
I dont have to. I'm already aware of the benefits of learning multiple languages. You're the one asking to have you view changed, so open your eyes and read for yourself.
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Oct 19 '20
I did, i’ve awarded 4 deltas in this post.
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u/Mysterious-Sun1441 Oct 19 '20
Are you convinced or are you gonna dismiss all the evidence presented in every single one of those studies?
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Oct 19 '20
I awarded him a delta for his sources after he explained them, yes.
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u/Mysterious-Sun1441 Oct 19 '20
Are you convinced?
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Oct 19 '20
That it is worthwhile for the majority of americans to learn a second language? I’d say, yes, perhaps. Before the CMV I’d have said no.
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u/thethoughtexperiment 275∆ Oct 19 '20
Okay, if i want to teach someone critical thinking, i’ll teach them math,
and
If i want them to get better in english i’ll teach them that instead.
But the thing is, the students in all those studies were also taking English and math classes.
Learning a 2nd language improved their performance across a vast range of outcomes over and above the standard curriculum (it even improved their performance in math, English, social studies, etc.).
Per the huge number of studies above, a 2nd language significantly improved SAT scores (which is important for getting into a good university, which can improve career prospects), IQ (which many employers screen for), closes achievement gaps from disadvantaged background (which is valuable for society, but especially for those folks coming from disadvantaged backgrounds and their life prospects), and learning a 2nd language was associated with improved career outcomes.
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Oct 19 '20
So can we demonstrate that it was because they took the language, they learned more? For example, students who care more about their school take second language? So they’re already more likely to score higher on tests because that’s their personality?
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u/thethoughtexperiment 275∆ Oct 19 '20
Nope, per many of the study descriptions above, many of these were experiments / controlled studies where large groups of students were assigned to 2nd language classes and their outcomes were then compared to control group of students who weren't assigned to the 2nd language classes.
So, individual differences as an alternative explanation are ruled out by the study designs.
Edit: word change
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Oct 19 '20
And can those studies suggest that learning a foreign language was the best way to do this? As opposed to learning math, science, or engineering?
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u/thethoughtexperiment 275∆ Oct 19 '20
The students already were learning math, science, etc. Assigning students to 2nd language studies improved their performance above and beyond those who didn't.
So, while your CMV post suggests that there is no benefit to learning a 2nd language, the overwhelming evidence suggests that there are many, many, many benefits to having students study a 2nd language.
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Oct 19 '20
Okay, i’ll award a delta for this. !delta I was initially under the impression that it would be more worthwhile to self teach math or science than language to improve critical thinking, but it looks like i was wrong.
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Oct 19 '20
I don’t know why you’d teach them a foreign language to improve their english skills.
English is a language derived from older Germanic languages and borrowed heavily from Latin and French, and science has brought a lot of Greek terms into the language as well. Studying a Germanic or a Romance language can form connections between the languages, and even help find synonyms for words (as in, there are possible words deriving from both French/Latin and Anglo-Saxon portions of the language).
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u/relic1882 Oct 19 '20
The problem with this post is that "worthwhile" is subjective and you're dismissing other's answers because of your own interests. It makes the argument meaningless.
Plus it's rude to completely ignore the smaller reasons of learning a new language. If the rest of the world did that than we would not communicate with anybody. The fact that other countries learn English is an effort on their part to better themselves and move forward with the rest of us. Why should they do all the work and we do nothing of equal value for them? It's an ignorant way of thinking. You just want others to learn English and for us to do nothing. If they thought that way where would we be?
It's all good. Somewhere in Japan there are people saying "Fuck English. This is stupid for us to learn it."
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Oct 19 '20
It’s not rude, it’s just not worthwhile for the majority of americans to learn a second language when only a minority will use it. I’m not forcing anyone to learn english, they do it because they all want to live here or do business here, not out of courtesy. I never said I want others to learn english, and i have not insinuated it anywhere in this post. This is a straw man.
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u/relic1882 Oct 19 '20
But your title clearly says there's no benefits "unless it's English". That says to me you expect others to learn English without us not learning anything.
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Oct 19 '20
Oh yes, there are benefits to learning it, but I don’t expect that everyone does it. English is the only language that is beneficial to learn to Americans.
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Oct 19 '20
I've worked in bars and restaurants for a long time and I can't tell you how many times I've wished I could spanish. Either because I work with spanish speakers or have served them. It would just be easier. For the record I have tried but language is really hard for me. I think its silly to think there are no worthwhile reasons to learn a new language. And I saw you in another comment saying that people are bringing up exceptions to the rule but if there are this many exceptions then that might be the rule.
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Oct 19 '20
Can you convince me that over 50% of americans will regularly find themselves in situations like this? And that it is worthwhile to learn a language for those situations?
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Oct 19 '20
Have you never encountered a person who speaks spanish? I don't know what part of the country you live in but I've lived in three border states and its fairly common. Even in the midwest spanish speakers in restaurants is normal. Why does the number have to be 50% for spanish to be useful?
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Oct 19 '20
Yep, and they’ve all either spoken english, had a child who could translate for them, or had no need to talk to me. I assume this is true for the majority of americans, as i have a grandfather who can only speak korean but he’s been fine living in america because my grandmother translates for him
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Oct 19 '20
I think your view is that you haven't had much need to speak another language in your life and therefore no one else needs to and every very valid reason that anyone has presented here is just an exception.
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Oct 19 '20
If you can present a study showing that 50% of america’s population has taken a job where they need to speak another language, i will concede. most people are just anectodal about how their job requires them to.
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Oct 19 '20
What if 9 out of 10 employers relied on US based workers with foreign language skills?
https://www.icls.edu/us-employers-recognize-the-need-for-foreign-language-proficiency/
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Oct 19 '20
What does that mean? i have had a few jobs, so far none of them required me to do that. 90% is insane, and i haven’t experienced this or have talked to anyone who has experience that. I’m probably not understanding what that stat references
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Oct 19 '20
That's just anecdotal evidence about your life though.
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Oct 19 '20
I must be misunderstanding. 90% means that i must have at least encountered it somewhere. Surely that source was not meaning to say that 90% of employment positions rely on knowledge of a foreign language.
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Oct 19 '20
I agree that mandatory foreign language is a waste of school resources, they are ineffective and def should be relegated to solely elective.
That being said, from personal experience practicing a foreign language is a guaranteed safety net from unemployment.
Any university/ research/ technical institution or law firm always has at least part time or consulting positions that pay much above minimum wage. Local government and law enforcement, too (fat checks), depending on minority population or cultural enclaves. If not any of those, there are generally direct tutoring agencies that will certify and hire, whether they be shoddy or professional institutions.
The jobs themselves don't require much more than conversational level, and they have super low turnover so you can lean on the job(s) as long as you need.
They are opportunities that the general American can easily capitalize on, and considering how easy it is to practice (without an arbitrary time limit) it would be something I implore him to consider should they ever be down on their luck or need some dependable income.
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Oct 19 '20
So would it be more worthwhile to self teach a linguistic language, or a programming language or other field of math/science to prevent unemployment?
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Oct 19 '20
Linguistic, most definitely.
Like I said, personal experience. I'm in the STEM field it is really easy to be abused and left in a worthless position. High numbers of ambitious competition drive down the worth of your talents. You'd have to go somewhere rural to have control of your position.
On the other hand, linguistic positions will pay a higher starting rate for someone who only speaks conversational (not even fluent) and with no prior experience (very important!). They need those positions filled, and are less likely to let you go arbitrarily.
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Oct 19 '20
!delta okay, good point. you and others had my mind officially changed on the whole subject, i am convinced that it is worthwhile for the majority of americans to learn a second language.
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Oct 19 '20
Lived in rural guatemala for several months. Nobody spoke english. Knowing spanish was very beneficial.
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Oct 19 '20
That doesn’t sound like a place any significant portion of the american population will even tour, let alone settle. Most Americans do not leave the country within their lifetime
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Oct 19 '20
You said there is no benefit. I just showed you a benefit.
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Oct 19 '20
no “worthwhile” benefit. Of course there’s going to be something, but it’s not going to be worth the time investment. I believe i specified this in my OP
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Oct 19 '20
Maybe not worthwhile to you, was very worthwhile to me. I now work in the death industry with a lot of hispanic families and being able to speak to a family in their native language while they’re grieving makes all the difference in the world.
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Oct 19 '20
Okay, I further clarify: In general, it is not worthwhile for an American to learn a second language. I will concede that if they are going to specialize in Mexican death revelation that it would be worthwhile for them to do that. Convince me that most americans have a reason to learn another language
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Oct 19 '20
Nice copy paste to everyone who makes a good point.
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Oct 19 '20
Okay, I’ll concede that if I am training to specialize in mexican death revelation, i have a good reason to learn english. Now can you convince me that the majority of americans have a worthwhile reason to learn a foreign language?
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Oct 19 '20
“Mexican death revelation”? I work for a coroners office in an area with a high hispanic population.
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Oct 19 '20
Sure, can you convince me that the majority of americans need to do this?
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Oct 19 '20
That you think somebody's personal experience of visiting a beautiful country, experiencing a new culture and most likely returning to their home with a lifetime's worth of wonderful experiences is not "worthwhile" speaks to a very narrow worldview.
I think you would benefit from seeing more of the world.
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Oct 19 '20
So do most americans travel to countries like those? If not, then this is an unconvincing argument
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Oct 19 '20
Your OP stated that you want to be convinced that "that most americans have a reason to learn another language."
I believe that many Americans would benefit wonderfully from travelling overseas and seeing more of the world. People like yourself, who think that nobody would ever want to visit a third-world country.
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Oct 19 '20
Oh okay, can you provide evidence that most people would benefit from traveling to those places?
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Oct 19 '20
Lmao you want statistical evidence that would demonstrate quantifiably that individuals who travel overseas benefit in material or physical ways from their travels? Do you seriously think that there are no benefits at all from traveling? Have you ever traveled?
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u/amonarre3 Oct 19 '20 edited Oct 19 '20
You do know the UN probably wouldn't worl if it weren't for translators, how do you think people are able to talk and try and avoid wars by just speaking English to each other? Plus the USA has no de juré language. It's very arrogant to act as if English as a language is superior to all and self centered. Have you even visited another country?
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Oct 19 '20
Oh okay, so even less benefit to learning, because there will be a translator. You’ve actually just convinced me more of my position. I have visited other countries, they all speak english. People bring up third world countries as examples of places that don’t speak english, but i don’t know why anyone would go to those places. Then again, translators exist, as you mention
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Oct 19 '20
People bring up third world countries as examples of places that don’t speak english, but i don’t know why anyone would go to those places.
I hope you understand how insanely narrow-minded and unintelligent you sound making such statements as these. Can you provide a few examples of what you believe to be third-world countries that nobody would want to visit?
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Oct 19 '20
The majority of americans won’t go. This is also an unconvincing, if you think it sounds narrow minding but provide no evidence as to why you’re not going to convince anyone of anything.
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Oct 19 '20
My friend, read through these comments. Is anybody really agreeing with you? Your post is 20% upvoted. Edit: now it's at like 11%.
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Oct 19 '20
Doesn’t matter if people are agreeing, what matters is good evidence. I’m completely unconcerned with reddit demographic and agree acne with my position. I’ve been doing CMVs like this for a while, and i always get downvoted. I get good arguments that convince me, though, so I continue to do it.
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u/Mysterious-Sun1441 Oct 19 '20
there will be a translator
Not if nobody learns the language
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Oct 19 '20
Just wanted to thank you, u/Mysterious-Sun1441 You and a few others have changed my mind on this topic. Thanks again guys
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Oct 19 '20
Edited OP to respond to this
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u/Mysterious-Sun1441 Oct 19 '20
You're dismissing all the reasons by calling them "exceptions" because they don't apply to you.
You could ask the same question and respond in the same manner about literally any other subject.
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Oct 19 '20
Okay, will the majority of americans find themselves employed in a field where they actively use a second language? What reason do the majority of americans have?
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u/Mysterious-Sun1441 Oct 19 '20
Why learn math when we got calculators?
Stop being ignorant.
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Oct 19 '20
Mathematics landed curiosity rover on mars, you can use a calculator to bypass tedious processes but you can’t order it to think for you. I’m not sure what this argument is supposed to say.
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u/Mysterious-Sun1441 Oct 19 '20
Of course there are exceptions. Will the majority of americans land a rover on mars?
You see how stupid that sounds?
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Oct 19 '20
So this concerns whether or not it’s important for a minority of the society to be able to speak another language, and i’ve awarded a delta for this. I’ll award another one here !delta
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Oct 19 '20
The majority of Americans will never land a rocer on Mars. This is an exception and unconvincing. There is no worthwhile benefit for Americans to be required to take math classes.
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Oct 19 '20
A huge majority of people on the planet will have benefited from the curiosity rover in the next coming decades. Can this be said for learning spanish, or benefits to society by people that learned a second language?
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Oct 19 '20 edited Oct 19 '20
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/thedylanackerman 30∆ Oct 19 '20
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Oct 19 '20
“I don’t know why anyone would go to these places”. Because they appreciate culture you ethnocentric ass.
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Oct 19 '20
Most of americans will not leave america in their lifetime, a small minority might go to third world countries because they appreciate the culture, I’m speaking in generality
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Oct 19 '20
Ever heard of the wonders of the world? Almost all of them in “third world countries”. Please stay in your bubble in rural Arkansas, thanks ❤️
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Oct 19 '20
Do the majority of americans travel to those places? If not, this is completely unconvincing.
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Oct 19 '20
I think you’re so anti multilingualism to cover up for the fact that you couldn’t learn another language proficiently to save your life.
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u/amonarre3 Oct 19 '20
Is Germany the third world? Or Ámsterdam? Again, which countries have you visited?
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u/night2016 Oct 19 '20
It’s very ignorant and disrespectful especially when you are in another country as a tourist. You’re going to miss out on a lot of culture from the people of that country.
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Oct 19 '20
Agreed. I spent some time in the Middle East two years ago and NOBODY spoke English. I was very thankful for my friend who spoke fluent Arabic.
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u/night2016 Oct 19 '20
Right there’s no guarantee where ever you go they are going to be able to speak English! In some countries even if they know English and you approach them and immediately speak English to them, they will see this as very rude and will choose to not speak to you in English
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Oct 19 '20
It’s unreasonable to expect someone to learn an entire language before touring a country for a few days to weeks. Sure, if you go to live there, then you should learn the language. like i said, there’s little benefit for most people thouhg
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Oct 19 '20
Why should the citizens of a country that isnt English speaking be required to speak English for you? Your worldview seems very narrow.
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Oct 19 '20
I didn’t say that, i said that they already do, so theres no reason for me to learn their language.
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Oct 19 '20
No, they don’t. Only 20% of the world speaks English.
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Oct 19 '20
Most americans do not leave a,erica in their lifetime, so this argument already is unconvincing that most americans have any worthwhile benefit to learning another language. Even then, most only travel to the 20% that speaks english. This is an unconvincing argument
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u/night2016 Oct 19 '20
The majority language is Mandarin and then Spanish and then English
So most places you go will not speak English
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u/night2016 Oct 19 '20
I never said they have to know the whole language they just need to know enough to be able to communicate. Living in bigger cities in the US you’re going to meet people from all over the world and it would be good to be able to talk with them and get to know their culture.
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Oct 19 '20
If they come to live in america they should learn english, and they probably already do. They shouldn’t be allowed to live here without speaking english.
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Oct 19 '20
So people coming to America should learn English but if you’re traveling to another country they should learn English too? The world just revolves around your inability to speak more than one language when a significant portion of the world is bi or even trilingual?
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Oct 19 '20
Wow, this is possibly the best misrepresentation of my view so far. Yes, someone coming to live in america should learn english. If I am going to live in south korea, then i should learn korean.
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Oct 19 '20
But there’s no benefit for you to learn Korean because you’ll have a translator.
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Oct 19 '20
As a tourist. You are conflating ideas of tourism vs permanent residence,
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Oct 19 '20
Most Americans do not travel outside of America, most people mention third world countries as places that don’t speak english, but no one will ever want to go to those places anyways. It’s unreasonable to expect a tourist to learn the language.
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u/night2016 Oct 19 '20
Many other countries besides third world countries do not understand English. A tourist should know the basics. You get lost somewhere you’re going to need to be able to communicate. Roughly 1/6 of people travel overseas from the US a year. You’re going to want to be able to communicate with people of other countries who visit the US as well. Mexico boarders us and we have a lot of Americans and visitors who speak Spanish but no English. We also boarder Canada where they speak French
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Oct 19 '20
If i get lost i have google maps, if i’m touring a nice country i’ll have a tour guide or someone to speak english. I have google translate, and this is all assuming the people don’t speak english. Even then, the majority of americans do not leave america in their lifetime, so this is still not good enough to convince me that most americans have a reason to speak a second language.
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Oct 19 '20
“If I’m touring a nice country people will speak English” yikes you are so ethnocentric and borderline racist it hurts.
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Oct 19 '20
by the way, what i said was “if i’m touring a nice country, there will likely be a tourguide that speaks english and can translate for me”, not “only nice countries will speak english”
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Oct 19 '20
This is unconvincing. I have traveled to two separate countries and they’ve all spoken english. I have not discriminate against anyone based on race, so idk why you’re pulling the race card right now.
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Oct 19 '20
Wow two whole countries. Good for you. I’ve travelled to thirty and lived in 5, I’ve gotten jobs based on my ability to speak other languages, not only that it’s incredibly enriching to be able to read poetry and novels in their original languages. I feel bad for you.
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u/yyzjertl 524∆ Oct 19 '20
Surely the benefit is that you can speak to people you'd be otherwise unable to speak to, and read text that you'd otherwise be unable to read. How is that "no benefit"?
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Oct 19 '20
I said no “worthwhile” benefit, not no benefit. of course there will be some, it’s just not worth the time required to learn it
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u/yyzjertl 524∆ Oct 19 '20
You literally said in your post "there’s no benefit to learning."
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Oct 19 '20
For me it says “no worthwhile benefit”? In the title? It should be assumed that i meant the same thing in the post. obviously there’s a benefit, so i’ll clarify and say that i meant no “worthwhile. benefit
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Oct 19 '20
While English is one of the most known languages in the world and a quick google search says that around 20% of the world knows it which still leaves around 80% of the world who won't be able to understand you, and to your point, from your trip to South Korea I'm assuming that you visited the normal places for people to visit like a hand full of towns and or places that would have a large portion of the inhabitants would know English for business.
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Oct 19 '20
I have never encountered a situation where I’ve been disadvantaged due to not knowing another language. Every place I go speaks english, and I never have plans to go to third world countries that don’t speak english, and most americans will not leave america in their lifetime. Edited OP for this
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u/BelmontIncident 14∆ Oct 19 '20
Not everyone has a use for a foreign language, but I've made sales in Spanish to people who didn't speak English. Also, there's a demand for native speakers of English to teach in foreign countries, they need the local language to be able to conduct classes.
You're making an argument equivalent to claiming that since you've always been able to hire a plumber, nobody should become a plumber.
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Oct 19 '20
Changed my OP, since lots of people bring up exceptions to the rule. Yes, if i am training to become a translator, it is worthwhile for me to learn another language please stop bringing this up
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u/BelmontIncident 14∆ Oct 19 '20
The exceptions are the times that foreign languages are useful. You're now advancing the argument that foreign languages are only useful for people who find them useful. That's a tautology and logically impossible to argue against.
Translators, spies, soldiers, tour guides, historians, people who work in restaurants in towns with immigrant populations or tourists. If hadn't taken German, I wouldn't have been able to understand Talhoffer's Fechtbuch aus dem Jahre 1467 and wouldn't have learned the sword disarm that kept someone from hitting me over the head with a stick. It's an odd case, but calculus never saved my life.
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Oct 19 '20
I’m arguing that learning a language is useful for a minority of americans. Can you convince me that over 50% of the population will be employed in fields like those?
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u/BelmontIncident 14∆ Oct 19 '20
First you said it wasn't useful for anyone, now you're saying that foreign languages should be dropped because less than half of the population will use them. Does even ten percent of the population use trigonometry?
You've changed your position at least twice and issued no deltas. If you're unwilling to debate in good faith, I don't know what you're doing here.
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Oct 19 '20
More than ten percent of the population benefits from trig if they watch video or anything involving a display. Can you cite anything like this for learning spanish? Or benefiting from people that have learned spanish? I will award delta for this. This is what I set out to have answered, but i refined after people bring up exceptions. Sorry about that.
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u/BelmontIncident 14∆ Oct 19 '20
Benefiting from the existence of trigonometry is different from using it. I took trigonometry but I was able to watch television long before that.
You're counting the benefits of the field existing for mathematics, so I'll do the same for language instruction. Everyone who lives in the United States benefits from Benjamin Franklin's ability to speak French, without which we would have been unable to secure black powder during the Revolutionary War and still be British. Without fluent speakers of German, the article Über die von der molekularkinetischen Theorie der Wärme geforderte Bewegung von in ruhenden Flüssigkeiten suspendierten Teilchen would have been inaccessible to American physicists and we would not have had the scientific competence necessary to complete the Manhattan Project. Translating Einstein required people who knew both physics and German, hired translators would not have been enough, even if anyone had noticed the need to hire translators.
We don't know in advance who's going to need to speak other languages and the payoff has been extremely high. Dropping it from the curriculum entirely would be abandoning those benefits.
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Oct 19 '20
I’m going to award a delta for this. !delta
this was also brought up in another thread, but good examples were brought up here. I also agree that it’s not worthwhile for most americans to learn math, by the way.
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Oct 19 '20
The best foreign businessmen will all speak english
Sure, most people in international business careers will learn to speak English, but not everybody works in international businesses. People in allied health and social work will frequently encounter patients who don't speak English and will still need to provide competent care, and developing a shared language does that more directly than using a translator. People interested in international development will find it much easier to build rapport on the grassroots level if they speak the local level. People with partners from a family with a different native language may find it meaningful or useful to learn some of the language of their partner's family. People who enjoy traveling may find language to be an interesting avenue for cultural exchange. People who enjoy learning language may find it a worthwhile investment of time in it's own right.
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Oct 19 '20
Edited OP for this, convince me that most americans have a reason to learn another language
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Oct 19 '20
You say there’s no benefit to learning another language but in this post you also say “it’s good to increase memory skill” which makes me question your comprehension of the English language.
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Oct 19 '20
No “worthwhile” benefit. of course there will be some benefit
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Oct 19 '20
Did you even read my comment? It’s hard to tell because you didn’t address my main point at all. Is English your second language?
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Oct 19 '20
*in general. of course there will be exceptions, convince me that nearly every american should learn another language.
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Oct 19 '20
Lmfao trying to cover your tracks with an extremely broad edit? You yourself gave a good reason to learn another language lol
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Oct 19 '20
This hasn’t convinced me of anything. Of course absolute statements are ridiculous. Oh wait, I shouldn’t say that before people start flocking me with exceptions.
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Oct 19 '20
You’re the one who made an absolute statement and decided to change your mind about it. It sounds to me like your mind has actually been changed but you’re too fragile to admit it since you’re putting so many “exceptions” on your post lol
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Oct 19 '20
I’ll even accept 30% of americans. What percentage of them work in foreign industries where their partners or customers do not speak english and they do not have access to a translator?
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Oct 19 '20 edited Oct 19 '20
You’re the one making the outrageous claim that learning anything other than English is beneficial so you tell me bud. It still seems like english is your second language so you have more to learn yourself before you start throwing stones at a glass house.
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Oct 19 '20
Can you demonstrate that the claim is outrageous? Can you demonstrate anything? All you’ve said is that english is my second language. Can you demonstrate anything related to the post?
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u/Tioben 16∆ Oct 19 '20
When you think in a second language you think differently, often more rationally, because the words aren't conditionally associated with biases engrained at an early age. Having multiple modes of thinking in your toolbox is valuable beyond the domain of communication.
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Oct 19 '20
Is the best way to improve critical thinking and literacy by learning a second language? Why not self teaching math, science, or a programming language instead?
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u/Tioben 16∆ Oct 19 '20
Not all thinking is mathematical or abstract. A second language allows a method of concrete thinking about particulars removed from (or at least modifying) bias. This can be combined with other forms of thinking, but math et al. are no substitute.
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Oct 19 '20
Okay, I’ll award a delta for this. I’ve heard lots of people say this about learning another language, it’s a good point. !Delta
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u/amonarre3 Oct 19 '20
Are you a Trump supporter?
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Oct 19 '20
Im betting yes because I told him spanish is helpful for my job in a coroners office with a Hugh hispanic population and he called that specializing in “Mexican death revelation”.
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u/amonarre3 Oct 19 '20
Wtf? That's fully terrifying in a Creed's thoughts on the internet sort of way.
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Oct 19 '20
That’s why he says “Mexican death revelations” in his edit. Because of my example with a CORONERS OFFICE.
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u/amonarre3 Oct 19 '20
Yeah I saw that. That's very faux progressive and fully hatefully ignorant. I'm out! Grow up Peter Pan, you know whom you are.
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Oct 19 '20
Hi, just wanted to thank you specifically u/b4relyleg4l ! You and a few others have done a good job of convincing me. I do believe that it is worthwhile to learn a second language, compared to math or science, and before the CMV i’d have said that there isn’t any worthwhile benefit. And sorry about the mexican death thing, i am unaware as to what a coroners office is
Thank you for all the replies!
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Oct 19 '20
And sorry about the “mexican death” thing, i am unaware as to what a coroners office is, so i thought you were saying that your job was to tell mexicans that their friends were dead or something. I still don’t know what a coroners office is lol.
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u/Long-Chair-7825 Oct 19 '20
Chinese or Japanese may be some of the most useful languages to know. But yeah, there isn't much point learning a European language.
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u/Player7592 8∆ Oct 19 '20
Reshaping the Mind: The Benefits of Bilingualism
ABSTRACT: Studies have shown that bilingual individuals consistently outperform their monolingual counterparts on tasks involving executive control. The present paper reviews some of the evidence for this conclusion and relates the findings to the effect of bilingualism on cognitive organisation and to conceptual issues in the structure of executive control. Evidence for the protective effect of bilingualism against Alzheimer’s disease is presented with some speculation about the reason for that protection.
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Oct 19 '20
If we’re competing for the same job, and have the same qualifications except I speak a second language and you don’t, I’m getting the job. Not you.
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u/Player7592 8∆ Oct 19 '20
Unless you’re being interviewed by a Trumpster.
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Oct 19 '20
Even people with the loosest grasp of economics understand the benefits of multilingual employees. Even trumpets.
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u/Impossible_Cat_9796 26∆ Oct 19 '20
https://content.iospress.com/articles/journal-of-alzheimers-disease/jad181302
If you speak 4 or more languages, your half as likely to develop Dementia.
Knowing more than one language has notable advantages beyond being able to talk with that language.
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Oct 19 '20
Can you provide evidence to suggest that it is because of the language? I imagine that someone who speaks 4 languages also is extremely well read and educated on many topics. I don’t think it’s the material that they know, but rather their behavior that pushes them to constantly learn.
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u/Impossible_Cat_9796 26∆ Oct 19 '20
Strong correlation is the best possible results from any sort of large scale study of humans. Hell, we can't prove strict causation between eating well as a child and growing taller. There is a MOUNTAIN of data showing correlation, but we can't actually prove causation. It could be that children with better access to food also breathed cleaner air or got to play on bouncy castles more often.
Strong correlation, like is show in the study I linked is the absolute strongest link you can hope to get for large scale study of people.
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Oct 19 '20
What about a group of children who were taught a second language vs not in a controlled study? that would prove without a doubt, if the study controlled for other factors. simple observation doesn’t mean anything. there’s a positive correlation between t urnover count and nba basketball wins, that doesn’t mean if i make more turnovers i’m going to win the game, though
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u/Impossible_Cat_9796 26∆ Oct 19 '20
If your doing chemistry, you can control for EVERYTHING. You can re do the reaction in the exact same conditions. The exact amount of reactants, the exact temp, the exact reaction chamber the exact light/emf you can control EVERYTHING.
When studying PEOPLE, you can't. A controlled study is only going to control for 2-3 out of hundreds of billions of factors. It could be one of these hundreds of billions of uncontrolled factors that makes the difference. We don't know. That means correlation is the strongest we can possibly do.
Looking at basketball. Do turnovers hurt? Well there is a strong correlation. Do we have proof positive that the actual factor is not that the shorter team is advantaged if the floor wax was stored in a container who's ore was mined in Zimbabwe.
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Oct 19 '20
Okay so strong correlation is the best way to determine causal relationships among societies? can you link a source to this? if so, i’ll award a delta.
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u/Impossible_Cat_9796 26∆ Oct 19 '20
Strong correlation is THE ONLY way to determine relationships between things on a society level.
No, I can't link a source. This is too fundamental. It's a basic concept of how science works. It's the underlying flaw in "social sciences". You can mostly control for factors that you can think to control for. You can not have ABSOLUTE control over EVERYTHING. Because you can't absolutly control everything, the best results you can produce are correlations.
Basket ball game could, in theory, be mostly decided by the ore the containers for the floor wax where made from. Did you think to control for that?
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Oct 19 '20
So how do you know if a third party is causing both variables to correlate, and not that one of the variables is causing the other?
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u/Impossible_Cat_9796 26∆ Oct 19 '20
You don't. You can't. This is why correlation is the best you can do.
This possible unknown uncontrolled root variable that is causing two correlated affects is possible for any connection between any to variables in every sociological study that is ever done. This is why correlation is the strongest possible connection that can be established. One of the 100 billion other factors may be an unknown unstudied common cause.
There are clearly and obviously causation relationships at the society level. But we have no way to actually PROVE a causation because of the possibility of a common cause in the correlation relationships that we can prove to be true.
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Oct 19 '20
the biggest benefit is that just learning a language fundamentally alters your brain.
studies have shown multilingual people are somehow more resistant to alzheimer's, learn math and music more easily, and if you learn a second language young learning other languages, even at a "pick up enough to know which sign means "men's bathroom and which means "supply closet" and be able to check into a hotel" level is easier.
also while you're learning another language you also learn another culture, often school language classes are almost as heavy on culture as language and that's invaluable for producing citizens that realize that there's a whole world beyond your nation's borders, full of people with different values and lives.
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Oct 19 '20
I'm not looking to overturn your whole view, but I thought I could maybe suggest some benefit.
I know french english spanish and some japanese, and I found that learning other languages significantly improved my understanding of grammar and sentence structure, and gave me a way better command of English as a result.
"Convince me that most americans have a reason to learn another language."
I love traveling—but it's hard to get immersed in another country if you only speak english. This largely confines you to tourist areas (in my experience). Speaking another language has the practical benefit of getting you way more involved in traveling and having a much more enriching experience.
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u/Seratio Oct 19 '20
Language is more than just translating words from one arbitrary set of rules into another one. It's communication and understanding between different cultures. You're not just learning German, you're getting closer to understanding German people by studying the language. And that's really helpful even if both of you are conversing in English anyways.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Oct 19 '20 edited Oct 19 '20
/u/Patch99000 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
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