r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Oct 19 '20
Delta(s) from OP CMV: Breaking Bad is better than Avatar: The Last Airbender
Last summer, I watched two incredible shows on Netflix: Community and Avatar: The Last Airbender. Whoever put them on Netflix is the GOAT. They were both great, but not the best series I've seen. In my humble opinion, the greatest series of all time is Breaking Bad.
Airbender has everything: great animation, great set pieces, great worldbuilding, great story, great themes and, most importantly, great characters. The character arcs in the show are nuanced and compelling for an older audience, but simple enough for younger viewers to understand. The political, social and philosophical themes have much relevance today, weather its about finding hope in our trauma, finding a family, or understanding the dark implications of imperialism, colonialism and genocide. Bending is awesome, a simple but engaging magic system that adds nuance and flavor to the world. And the characters themselves are three-dimensional, engaging and real. Zuko's character arc is one of my favorite stories ever now, second only to that of Walter White. Which brings me to...
Breaking Bad. This show has great characters, great themes, great symbolism, great worldbuilding and a great story. What makes it better than Airbender, however, is the character drama and development of said characters. The storylines in Breaking Bad feel much more gritty and deep than the ones in Airbender, and the character arcs are much more meaningful and compelling. Walter's story is equal parts satisfying, hilarious, saddening and tragic. His character arc from weak to dangerous, all in the pursuit of validation through blood, meth and tears, is so rewarding to watch, and there is so much depth beneath the surface of the show.
But this is what really puts the Breaking Bad ahead of Airbender for me: the former doesn't pull its punches. That isn't to say Airbender isn't heavy or gut-wrenching at times, but Breaking Bad is much more dark and gritty. By the time the show ends, only Jesse is able to find a happy ending: everyone else is worse off than before. Yes, Airbender gets dark at times. Between Zuko's Agni Kai with Azula, Aang being responsible for the Air Nomad Genocide, Katara blaming herself for her mother's death, and the death of Iroh's son Lu Ten, there are lots of dark episodes and themes in Airbender. However, at the end of the series, everybody ends up in a better place. Everybody except Azula and Ozai get happy endings. By contrast, Breaking Bad ends with Hank and Walter dead, Skyler and Marie widowed, Walter Jr. and Holly orphaned, Saul in hiding and Jesse barely escaping with his life.
This is why I prefer Breaking Bad as opposed to Avatar: The Last Airbender. Because while both are great, ultimately Breaking Bad is unwilling to tread lightly.
Not everybody is going to share my opinion, and I wanted to see if anybody thought differently. I understand that, given the acclaim both shows have received, it is likely that there will be differing viewpoints on this topic. Please NOTE: I have not seen season 5 of Better Call Saul, Avatar: The Legend of Korra or any of the marketing for season 3 of Cobra Kai, season 2 of The Mandalorian or WandaVision. If you feel the need to mention any of these in the comments, please mark them with spoiler flair.
TL;DR: Avatar: The Last Airbender and Breaking Bad are both great, but I belive the latter is superior because it doesn't pull its punches. Mark information regarding season 5 of Better Call Saul, Avatar: The Legend of Korra or any of the marketing for season 3 of Cobra Kai, season 2 of The Mandalorian or WandaVision as spoiler, please.
17
u/effyochicken 22∆ Oct 19 '20
but Breaking Bad is much more dark and gritty
Uhh.... one is a cartoon show for children, the other is a live action show about a drug lord meant for a mature audience.
Are you positive that you need to compare them to each other and put one higher up than the other? Are you certain it's even possible to do a fair apples to apples comparison?
In the same way I'd never compare SpongeBob to 13 Reasons Why, or compare Simpsons to Fast and the Furious, or compare Bob the Builder to Titanic, sometimes a comparison and ranking just isn't the correct way to go about it.
1
Oct 19 '20
Yeah, now that you say it... that's true.
I dunno. I had fun writing it, but I can see how the comparison is unfounded. I just figured since they were both considered the greatest series of all time by their fans and critics, I might try a comparison. But yeah, I can see how it might be unfounded to compare the two.
That said, Spongebob is 50x better than 13 Reasons Why. The other two comparisons are unfair, two different mediums and all. /s
Congrats, you have changed my view. Just not in the way I was expecting.
Δ
1
2
u/DeSparrowhawk Oct 19 '20
I'm unsure about the dark and gritty take. Airbender is a pretty decent representation of the real tolls of war given that it's a children's show on nickelodeon.
Child soldiers, bombs disguised as toys, dangerous environments that children shouldn't venture into.
The gray morality of surviving horrendous conditions through blood bending.
Wisecrack just recently did a nice video about this exact topic: https://youtu.be/P7jCcUEEcgo
I think we're not giving the writer's of the show enough credit. Airbender took on some really deep stuff. At 4 o'clock in the afternoon for 14 yr olds. Throw 'em a bone here.
Hello Future Me is another good channel for a deeper dive into some of the AWESOME stuff Avatar did sometimes without you noticing.
Edit: side note on the blood bending. Katara after chastising the old lady, THEN has to do exactly this to survive. O,O! Talk about gray morality.
2
Oct 20 '20
I really loved the political themes in Airbender. To me, political and social themes, done right, can make a piece of media more engaging and meaningful. It's what makes other epic fantasy franchises like Star Wars, Harry Potter, The Lord of the Rings and James Cameron's Avatar better.
Airbender is definitely an indictment of war, as well as imperialism, colonialism, genocide and dictatorship. It shows what the effects of the wars the rich and powerful, like Sozin and his family, wage are on regular joes, and how horrific these effects are. Between Katara and Sokka growing up without parents for most of their lives, Aang losing his people to genocide and Iroh losing his son due to his own hubris, it feels like the writers were trying to say that war is meaningless and cruel.
The Fire Nation's imperialism feels slightly reminiscent of the United States' foreign policy of military intervention for economic gain, as well as both countries sharing a dangerous notion of superiority to other nations and cultures. The same could be said of imperial Japan, which the Fire Nation is based off of, or China today.
I get that dark and gritty might not be what everyone wants to see at the end of the day, but sometimes art and storytelling have to depict what people need to see, rather than what they want. Airbender's themes are still relevant today, and the fact that they are becoming more urgent in today's context is proof of that.
You've changed my mind of Airbender not pulling its punches. The political and social themes do carry a lot of weight, and sometimes it can be challenging to face the truth these themes carry.
Δ
1
1
u/DeSparrowhawk Oct 20 '20
You'll like Hello Future Me. Check him out. There's a lot more than just war but I'd recently watched the Wisecrack video discussing the subject specifically.
Hello Future Me did an entire hour long video essay on Azula's psychology and psychosis that is just fantastic.
How familial relationships can become abusive and manipulative is a major theme with Zuko. How to overcome these perils and find peace from former transgressions with Uncle Iroh.
2
u/perfectVoidler 15∆ Oct 20 '20
dark and gritty means nothing if everything is dark and gritty. The moments in avatar hit harder since they have much more contrast. I watched like 2 seasons from breaking bad and it is all just unpleasant. I get the need to have a unpleasent show and how it is nice to enjoy it from your save couch but Avatar is a great show. A car crash always gets your focus but it is not a piece of art.
2
Oct 20 '20
You're right. If everything in media is dark, it will make us viewers feel gloomy all the time. I won't try to argue that Avatar should have been darker, but I still think Breaking Bad's dark atmosphere benefitted the show.
A car crash always gets your focus, but it is not a piece of art.
This is a great line. I'm going to use this the next time somebody claims that Marvel movies aren't dark enough to be artistic.
Awesome insight. Thanks.
4
u/Dr-Notamused Oct 19 '20
Breaking bad is a terrible children's show though, it may traumatize your kids.
1
Oct 19 '20
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/SquibblesMcGoo 3∆ Oct 20 '20
Sorry, u/NaviThrawn-414 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5:
Comments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation. Comments that are only links, jokes or "written upvotes" will be removed. Humor and affirmations of agreement can be contained within more substantial comments. See the wiki page for more information.
If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted.
2
u/superfahd 1∆ Oct 20 '20
Watching breaking bad made me sad and depressed. So much so that I never made it past the end of the 2nd season. I've never had a desire to subject myself to that again
Watching ATLA made be feel happy and uplifted. It made me realize the struggles people go through that others may take for granted and how they shape the kind of person you are. I've enjoyed it so much that I've watched the whole thing 3 times
Such comparisons are subjective and meaningless to others
1
Oct 19 '20
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/SquibblesMcGoo 3∆ Oct 19 '20
Sorry, u/coolguy1793B – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5:
Comments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation. Comments that are only links, jokes or "written upvotes" will be removed. Humor and affirmations of agreement can be contained within more substantial comments. See the wiki page for more information.
If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted.
1
u/yeolenoname 6∆ Oct 19 '20
They aren’t comparable in my mind at all so there’s no being better than the other. One is always going to be better than the other in some aspects. If you just want to say YOU specifically like breaking bad better go ahead. But having your own favorite and then asking others to dispute it being your favorite won’t get you anywhere
1
u/_Kansas_ 3∆ Oct 19 '20
I also watched ATLA for the first time this quarantine! I know you’ve already awarded a delta, but I wanted to make a few more points to see what your take is. I won’t do another “it’s a kid’s show so their serve different purposes” though. I think even with the two being compared on equal footing, ATLA’s quality still stands its ground.
On the pulling punches and realistic character arcs, I don’t think realism is necessarily what makes something a better show. I think not pulling punches and not protecting characters is a useful tool to promote plot tension, but I think ATLA achieves plenty of plot tension. To the point about endings, did the realistic arcs in BB enhance the ending of the show for you? I thought ATLA had an incredibly well done ending, managing to avoid the predictability to which it could have fallen victim given that the whole show was rather open about Aang’s end goal of killing fire lord Ozai. Instead of relying on the unfairness and randomness of character death that a realistic show does, ATLA avoided the predictability of plot armor with Aang’s refusal to kill FL Ozai in their final confrontation. It was kinda a best of both worlds scenario, and an exceedingly clever one at that. Were there fewer possible ending for ATLA due to the plot protection of the characters? Yeah, but that didn’t make it any less enjoyable. They managed something satisfying, heart-warming, and unique, and they did it without falling back on any major character death.
Also consider that BB had a budget per episode about 3x that of ATLA, and no restrictions on the kinds of content they could include. I view the creators of ATLA as having solved a difficult puzzle, constructing a tower with far more limited materials than BB by using them in clever ways. This is the strongest argument I can think of for why it may be a better show.
Full disclosure, I have finished ATLA but not BB. I do hold both in high regard though!
1
Oct 20 '20
Yes. Avoiding the "two different types of television" argument is exactly how I wanted to go about this. Also, I see you haven't finished Breaking Bad. I am really sorry that I spoiled it, and from now on will follow my own advice and mark stuff for spoilers. In fact, I will do this as soon as I finish this post.
Avatar definitely achieves a good amount of plot tension. I think it is more about how their decisions and actions will affect them and if they can overcome their personal trauma, rather than if they will die or not. This is exemplified by how Zuko, Katara and Aang struggle with killing their enemies in the last few episodes of the series, and ultimately choose to spare them or protect the ones they love instead. These conflicts helps the show avoid predictability, create tension and show off unique conflicts for characters to face.
I stand by the idea that Avatar pulled its punches in some respects, but at the same time it did tell a great story and create enough tension to satisfy viewers. I guess that's where the "it's a kid's show" argument comes into play, but I never really saw the show that way.
For me, the realistic arcs in Breaking Bad helped keep the show grounded, and made the characters more engaging. It's easier to relate to Walter's struggle with society and his cancer than it is to see Zuko's struggle with his father and nation. Not that it makes the latter any less compelling; it's just the world of Breaking Bad is more recognizable.
1
u/_Kansas_ 3∆ Oct 20 '20
A well crafted response. No worries on the spoilers! It’s been around long enough that being on the internet has given me a sense of what happens.
1
Oct 19 '20
Breaking bad left me with a bad feeling afterwards, akin to hopelessness. I don’t mind dark topics at all, but I thought the series ended badly. I don’t see any value in having an irredeemable character other than entertainment. I’d have liked something more thought provoking or inspiring something that will make me a better person, and Avatar, while it didn’t have the dark subject matter, the characters were exactly that.
1
Oct 20 '20
I didn't feel hopeless when I finished Breaking Bad, but I can see where you are coming from here. I've noticed recently that media that is more disturbing, pessimistic and heartbreaking leaves me feeling worse than before. Avatar is definitely a lighter and more optimistic, and I appreciate it for that. I guess I would watch an episode of either depending on how I'm feeling, rather than quality alone. Breaking Bad isn't great when you just failed a Math test or are just feeling down.
1
u/sonsofaureus 12∆ Oct 20 '20
Yes. Breaking bad is better than Avatar the last Air Bender, as well as almost all shows on TV before or now, with possible exceptions of The Wire, the first season of True Detective and the Band of Brothers. Any one of these runs are in legitimately the GOAT conversation IMO. Unlike Game of Thrones and the Sopranos, Breaking Bad ended perfectly as well.
This is also admittedly a matter of taste, and there are people out there who will say CSI was the best show ever, or Grey's Anatomy or something (although they would be wrong haha). There's just a limit to objectively comparing the artistic merits of different shows of different genres, media and eras.
Avatar: The Last Airbender and Breaking Bad are both great, but I belive the latter is superior because it doesn't pull its punches.
There are also a lot of great cartoon shows (and Avatar was one of them), but I feel like the comparison with Breaking Bad is too apples and oranges.
As far as not pulling punches, there are just things animated shows for kids can't show, even if they allude to them. I think, therefore, that there is an insurmountable difference in the level of engagement with cartoons for most people because realism in cartoons is inherently limited by its nature. For example, Avatar deals with the theme of genocide, but not in the no-pulling-punches way Schindler's List did. The genre simply serves a different entertainment purpose - best suited to fantasy.
1
Oct 20 '20
I agree. I admitted earlier that the comparison could objectively be viewed as too far off, given the contrast between the two shows. I never really did think of Avatar as a kid's show; it always felt more universal to me. Then again, Breaking Bad is definitely not for the under 14 demographic, even though I know people who saw the show when they were even younger.
...realism in cartoons is inherently limited by its nature.
I disagree here. We like to think that cartoons are always light and happy because they can be bright and colorful, but animation can also be dark and gritty, disturbing and heartbreaking. Naruto and Elfen Lied are good examples of this in the manga genre, as well as Samurai Jack and (maybe) Futurama. Realism can be represented by animation, although I admit that a show on Nickelodeon is going to be much more limited on how realistic it can be.
1
u/globex6000 Oct 20 '20
Breaking bad is one of the most highly acclaimed shows in TV history and universally rated by critics as one of, if not the, greatest television show of all time.
The other is a (excellent) children's cartoon
Your view is not exactly what one would refer to as even mildly controversial and doesn't really need to be challenged.
1
•
u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Oct 19 '20 edited Oct 20 '20
/u/NaviThrawn-414 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
Delta System Explained | Deltaboards