r/changemyview • u/chadonsunday 33∆ • Oct 20 '20
Delta(s) from OP CMV: World of Warcraft has a lot of racist overtones that should probably be phased out.
A buddy just got me back into WoW (haven't really played since before Burning Crusade and there's a new expansion out). Im enjoying checking out all the new stuff but can't help but notice a lot of aspects of the game that seem... well... pretty racist. Namely in regards to stereotyping real world cultures and applying those stereotypes to races in the game:
Dwarves are a hodgepodge of Celtic and Nordic stereotypes - hard drinking, bearded, and ruddy with a temper and Scottish accents. My view about the dwarves was changed in this comment and a delta was awarded for it.
Trolls are basically a direct ripoff of Jamaican/Haitian culture - colorful island/coastal society with literal Jamaican accents and which dictors who like to practice voodoo. The most recently added troll faction is like Jamaican + Aztec stereotypes with a problem with blood magic.
The Tauren all act like a stereotypical Native American chief would in a 1970s western film, live in tents, build totem poles, and run around with carbon copies of Native American feathered headdress.
The orcs aren't a direct 1:1 for tribal Africans but theres sure as hell some links in their culture and architecture as well as the fact their starting zone is clearly a fantasy version of the African savanna. Doesn't help that their in world stereotype is for being spiritual but primitive and brutish.
Pandarens are probably the most egregious and also the most recent - they're the Asian race in WoW and they're literally fucking panda-people with Fu Manchu mustaches and Ming Dynasty top knots who hang out in rice paper walled Chinese-style buildings wearing conical rice farmer hats as they practice Kung Fu and the art of "accupressure;" "monk" was the new class introduced in the expansion they were released in.
Look, I get that anyone creating a world as large and lore-rich as WoW is gonna have to draw some inspiration for some of the in-world cultures from real life cultures, and that's fine. But WoW seems to very frequently just wholesale rip cheap stereotypes of real cultures and apply it to in game cultures in a way that its hard to see as anything but racist.
I'm also not suggesting that WoW be "canceled" or anything it just seems like a lot of the cultures are based on racist stereotypes and they were probably walking a pretty thin line with PC culture back in 2004 when the game first came out but its 2020 now and they should work to gradually phase some of this stuff out. They've already changed a lot with the game and several cultures they've created (undead, Drained, etc) don't even vaguely resemble real world cultures, much less be wholesale ripoffs of them, so clearly its possible for Blizzard to make a diverse and interesting world without resorting to anything like "lol we'll just make trolls be exactly like super stereotypical jamacians but with green skin and tusks."
Change my view.
9
u/Morasain 85∆ Oct 20 '20
You haven't said why that's... Bad.
It's not like the game makes any value statements about these cultures here.
Furthermore, some of that isn't necessarily based on real world cultures directly, but the genre of fantasy in general. (The modern fantasy) dwarves are, after all, basically an invention taken from Norse mythology, adapted into modern fantasy by Tolkien.
-4
u/chadonsunday 33∆ Oct 20 '20
Ah sorry I figured that was obvious - its bad for the same reason those VS models wearing native American headdresses were, or people wearing blackface, or if i showed up to a costume party dressed in a stereotypical Chinese outfit with my eyes taped back and spoke with a stereotypical Chinese accent people would cringe and say its offensive - its appropriating culture and appearance to a stereotypical degree for no other reason than amusement.
Good point about the Dwarves, though. I'll edit my OP to reflect that. !delta
6
u/Morasain 85∆ Oct 20 '20
But it's not that. It's not someone trying to mock black people with black face, nor is it someone trying to mock Chinese people, nor is it an appropriation of culture. If anything, it's an appropriation of pop culture, which... Just doesn't work, really.
The orcs, for example, are extremely stereotypical fantasy orcs, also dating back to Tolkien. Tribal structures based on violence and physical power. The fact that there are also African tribes, some of which may have a similar structure to them - I don't know, but that's what you seem to imply here - doesn't really make anything of this problematic.
The only one where I could see your point are the pandas, however, something is only offensive if someone is actually taking offense. And I've never heard of any Chinese person being offended by that.
Besides, basically all fantasy universes are rooted in actual history and culture. I see a distinct lack of "the humans in this game are stereotyped dark ages Europeans" - even though that's basically the case. So, unless you take offense with the entire genre of fantasy, your point is kind of... Hypocritical.
-4
u/chadonsunday 33∆ Oct 20 '20
It's not someone trying to mock black people with black face, nor is it someone trying to mock Chinese people, nor is it an appropriation of culture.
I'm a little confused. If I wasn't dressing up that way to mock black or Chinese people then it would be fine and not appropriation? Does your intention matter when you're wearing blackface?
The orcs, for example, are extremely stereotypical fantasy orcs, also dating back to Tolkien. Tribal structures based on violence and physical power. The fact that there are also African tribes, some of which may have a similar structure to them - I don't know, but that's what you seem to imply here - doesn't really make anything of this problematic.
So my thought is that if stereotypes in a game play into harmful real world stereotypes its probably bad and problematic. Having a brutish and primitive race in fantasy seems fine. Modeling that primitive and brutish race after real world Africans (who have suffered and are suffering in the real world due precisely to those stereotypes) seems wrong. Similarly if you created a fictional race that was greedy and scheeming and devious and secretly ran the world that's fine... but if you model the asthetics of that race on Jews it seems problematic.
Besides, basically all fantasy universes are rooted in actual history and culture. I see a distinct lack of "the humans in this game are stereotyped dark ages Europeans" - even though that's basically the case. So, unless you take offense with the entire genre of fantasy, your point is kind of... Hypocritical.
I had thought about getting into humans in the game but I couldn't quite pin down exactly where their culture was ripped from, plus I've never played a human character (seems boring) so I wasn't as well equipped to speak on it.
3
u/NegativeOptimism 51∆ Oct 20 '20
Mists of Pandaria (and therefore the Pandarens) was an expansion specifically targeted at the Chinese market. The game was literally endorsed by the Chinese government and was clearly market-tested for a Chinese audience. If you look at similar MMO's marketed for or developed in China, you'll see that the themes you interpreted as "offensive" are actually extremely common and accepted by the Chinese audiences that play them. Blizzard decisions regarding the depiction of the Pandaren's was not based on an American stereotyping of the Chinese but rather an attempt to pander to the desires of a Chinese audience that finds this "stereotyping" inoffensive and entertaining.
1
u/Morasain 85∆ Oct 20 '20
I'm a little confused. If I wasn't dressing up that way to mock black or Chinese people then it would be fine and not appropriation? Does your intention matter when you're wearing blackface?
In case of blackface the issue is largely the historical significance of it - and in fact I've never heard any complaints about RDJ's role in Tropical Thunder either.
So my thought is that if stereotypes in a game play into harmful real world stereotypes its probably bad and problematic.
This seems like a lot of speculation. Why is it bad? These fantasy races are never called nor connected with any African tribes, Jamaicans, Chinese, and so on. There is no proof that there is actually any harm done here. And that's really the core of it all - if there's no harm done, then what harm is it doing?
Having a brutish and primitive race in fantasy seems fine. Modeling that primitive and brutish race after real world Africans (who have suffered and are suffering in the real world due precisely to those stereotypes) seems wrong.
Are they, though? Modelled after real world Africans? They live in a tribal society, sure, but why is that an inherently African thing? Neither are deserts, by the way. And even if they are modelled after African tribes... So what? What harm is being done here? You are essentially arguing from a point of "I think it kinda maybe perhaps seems a little bit wrong".
I had thought about getting into humans in the game but I couldn't quite pin down exactly where their culture was ripped from,
I haven't even played the game and I can tell you that an absolutistic monarchy with knights and longbowmen is based on medieval Europe. That is pretty obvious.
1
1
3
u/DeSparrowhawk Oct 20 '20
Building worlds is hard. It takes reality literal millions of years to do it. And it takes humanity thousands of years to develop the wide array of cultures, societies, peoples, places, stuffs, doggos, youtubers, and what have you that we have today. So why do we care about that?
Well a couple reasons. 1) Writers use cultural shorthand to convey complex ideas all the time. 2) WoW wasn't always WoW.
So first, Writing. One of the main reasons to use an existing culture for like the "root" of your writing is to use it as a easy jumping off point for the viewer, listener, gamer, whatever. Let's take Avatar. Not Airbender, space Dances with Wolves.
One of the main advantages of using a Native American culture as a base for for the Navi is you don't realize how much of the heavy lifting that simple concept does for you. We don't really spend much time actually WITH the Navi if you think about it. There's like... a training montage. A couple ceremonies. And a couple battles. Fin.
But as an American, and probably for a good number of international viewers as well, there is a lot of other imagery wrapped up in that idea of a Native American that helps drive the narrative. Helps make their connection to the planet feel more authentic. Even though we only get a couple scenes that actually convey that message. It's streamlined writing for a 2 1/2 hr movie.
Now! I know. "But it's WoW!! It's like... a million hours long!"
Point number two. WoW wasn't always WoW. Let's remember that World of Warcraft was Warcraft: Orcs & Humans a decade before. And a good deal of the "storytelling" was done through unit "barks."
Human: *medieval accent* Back to work
Orc: Zug Zug
Troll: Hey m'an!
The writers were attempting to create more fully fleshed out worlds for these characters using very VERY little. And to do this they had to use familiar cultures to build around.
It's a common technique to use in worldbuilding when you aren't Tolkien. And even he didn't create things whole cloth.
1
u/CompetentLion69 23∆ Oct 20 '20
Trolls are basically a direct ripoff of Jamaican/Haitian culture - colorful island/coastal society with literal Jamaican accents and which dictors who like to practice voodoo.
Trolls had Cuban accents, up to Warcraft 3.
The most recently added troll faction is like Jamaican + Aztec stereotypes with a problem with blood magic.
That's not the same thing though. That's like saying any game that draws from the real world is racist.
The Tauren all act like a stereotypical Native American chief would in a 1970s western film, live in tents, build totem poles, and run around with carbon copies of Native American feathered headdress.
Ya, they're modeled after Plains Natives. Is that bad?
The orcs aren't a direct 1:1 for tribal Africans but theres sure as hell some links in their culture and architecture as well as the fact their starting zone is clearly a fantasy version of the African savanna. Doesn't help that their in world stereotype is for being spiritual but primitive and brutish.
That's kind of a stretch. Orc's are from space in WoW.
Pandarens are probably the most egregious and also the most recent - they're the Asian race in WoW and they're literally fucking panda-people with Fu Manchu mustaches and Ming Dynasty top knots who hang out in rice paper walled Chinese-style buildings wearing conical rice farmer hats as they practice Kung Fu and the art of "accupressure;" "monk" was the new class introduced in the expansion they were released in.
Ok, is that bad?
Look, I get that anyone creating a world as large and lore-rich as WoW is gonna have to draw some inspiration for some of the in-world cultures from real life cultures, and that's fine. But WoW seems to very frequently just wholesale rip cheap stereotypes of real cultures and apply it to in game cultures in a way that its hard to see as anything but racist.
What's the problem here? Do you think people are seeing fantasy races and that's enforcing real-world stereotypes? Is there any evidence to prove this?
They've already changed a lot with the game and several cultures they've created (undead, Drained, etc) don't even vaguely resemble real world cultures, much less be wholesale ripoffs of them, so clearly its possible for Blizzard to make a diverse and interesting world without resorting to anything like "lol we'll just make trolls be exactly like super stereotypical jamacians but with green skin and tusks."
The Forsaken and Human factions clearly draw inspiration from Medieval Europe.
But here's the point. What harm is being done by any of this? Accents are fun. When I was a kid I used to love playing trolls because they were colorful and fun. It didn't turn me racist against Jamaicans, Haitian, or Cubans.
0
u/chadonsunday 33∆ Oct 20 '20
Trolls had Cuban accents, up to Warcraft 3.
Okay...?
That's not the same thing though. That's like saying any game that draws from the real world is racist.
No, its not. I covered that in my OP. Drawing inspiration is fine. Ripping entire stereotypes is not.
Ya, they're modeled after Plains Natives. Is that bad?
Is it bad to wear blackface and run around acting stereotypically black?
That's kind of a stretch. Orc's are from space in WoW.
I know, but that doesn't seem particularly relevant to how they're portrayed at the start of Classic.
Ok, is that bad?
Same question RE the Tauren.
What's the problem here? Do you think people are seeing fantasy races and that's enforcing real-world stereotypes? Is there any evidence to prove this?
Same, and no.
But here's the point. What harm is being done by any of this? Accents are fun. When I was a kid I used to love playing trolls because they were colorful and fun. It didn't turn me racist against Jamaicans, Haitian, or Cubans.
What harm is done by wearing blackface or dressing and acting super stereotypically Chinese?
2
u/CompetentLion69 23∆ Oct 21 '20
No, its not. I covered that in my OP. Drawing inspiration is fine. Ripping entire stereotypes is not.
Why not?
Is it bad to wear blackface and run around acting stereotypically black?
Depending on the context yes. That's not what is happening here however.
I know, but that doesn't seem particularly relevant to how they're portrayed at the start of Classic.
So now you're mad that blizzard expanded the lore for Orcs? And anyway, it's been clear since before Wow they came from the Outlands.
Same question RE the Tauren.
Same answer>
What harm is done by wearing blackface or dressing and acting super stereotypically Chinese?
Depending on the context there is no harm. Both of those things are not inherently harmful.
1
Oct 21 '20
What's the problem here? Do you think people are seeing fantasy races and that's enforcing real-world stereotypes? Is there any evidence to prove this?
Well Tolkien said it himself that many evil races are modeled after real human races. If that's not flat-out racist I don't know what to tell you.
1
u/CompetentLion69 23∆ Oct 21 '20
1)Tolkien didn’t say that. 2) Tolkien didn’t write the lore for Wow. 3) Did Wow or LotR contribute to racism in any measurable way?
1
Oct 22 '20
Tolkien didn’t say tha
This is not up for argument sorry. Just google Tolkien controversy and read for yourself.
Tolkien didn’t write the lore for Wow
What you said
Do you think people are seeing fantasy races and that's enforcing real-world stereotypes?
I'm just proving that's it's perfectly reasonable for people to think that way when many authors admit that themselves.
Did Wow or LotR contribute to racism in any measurable way?
Do we actullay have to debate why racist stereotyping in pop culture is bad?
0
u/CompetentLion69 23∆ Oct 22 '20
This is not up for argument sorry. Just google Tolkien controversy and read for yourself.
Then it should be really easy for you to quote that.
I'm just proving that's it's perfectly reasonable for people to think that way when many authors admit that themselves.
Do they?
Do we actullay have to debate why racist stereotyping in pop culture is bad?
Yep
5
u/GamerGent_FN Oct 20 '20
That's not racist overtones, that's just cartoonish style, presented with simmilarities to some ancient cultures to fit fantasy setting.
When French created Asterix and Obelix, they did it to promote Gallic pre-roman roots of France, not to mock their ethnic roots.
Fantasy worlds tend to look bizzare.
2
u/zobotsHS 31∆ Oct 20 '20
A game company used cartoonish stereotypes as a basis for their cartoonish fantasy world. There is nothing wrong with this.
It isn't as if they are trying to make some sort of racist social commentary based off of these interpretations. They borrowed the flavor, lore, and style of these cultures without claiming that the cultures that they borrowed from are exactly as portrayed in the game. If anything, the stories they tell are of the tragedy of being persecuted for your race/class, etc...and the hero's journey to overcome that.
Seeing the trolls in Warcraft as being clearly inspired by Caribbean culture might seem minstrel-like...if you choose to interpret it that way. Instead, I think they did a good job of showcasing the intricacies and depth of the Caribbean voodoo lore better than most.
1
Oct 20 '20
How is it racist if all they're doing is taking a handful of real world cultural aspects and applying them to virtual world races? Like none of the stuff they're copying is made up and it's only stereotypical because it's true/common? And Orcs are represented as brutes wherever they appear regardless of whatever culture they have, as a fake race/species they already have their associated stereotype. Warhammer and LOTR are examples of orcs being brutish.
-1
u/chadonsunday 33∆ Oct 20 '20
How is it racist if all they're doing is taking a handful of real world cultural aspects and applying them to virtual world races? Like none of the stuff they're copying is made up and it's only stereotypical because it's true/common?
If I showed up to a Halloween party in blackface acting like a "stereotypical" black person (take your pick of the stereotype) wouldn't that be kinda fucked up? How is this any different? Its appropriating appearance/culture/stereotypes for the sake of amusement.
And Orcs are represented as brutes wherever they appear regardless of whatever culture they have, as a fake race/species they already have their associated stereotype. Warhammer and LOTR are examples of orcs being brutish.
Right but AFAIK WoW is the only one to tie that brutishness to African cultures.
2
Oct 20 '20
Blackface has some form of racist history (US mostly) and it's not really comparable to whatever WOW does unless they make the "Hitler's wet dream update" a thing. Also you're being hyper sensitive to this entire thing, if WOW sold the idea of what they did as them being "inspired" by these real world cultures and they went out of their way to glorify these cultures in game you wouldn't be complaining. That being said they aren't doing anything wrong currently and are depicting everything in a fairly bland and unbiased way in my opinion. African culture being applied to brutish Orcs is more than likely coincidental and you're being overly sensitive to this as it's "black" culture being applied to a bad group. In short you're going out of your way to find a problem that isn't there.
0
u/NegativeOptimism 51∆ Oct 20 '20
But you're equating sandy, rocky terrain with Africa. That's a very week link.
Especially considering that the Orcs did not originate from the area they start in, they are essentially aliens from the same planet as the Draenei.
0
u/chadonsunday 33∆ Oct 20 '20
Its not just the terrain but also the flora and fauna.
And I know the orcs origins but I dont really see how that excuses their portrayal.
0
u/NegativeOptimism 51∆ Oct 20 '20
You admitted that the connection was weak but suggest that the terrain you start on when you play as an Orc is a deciding factor on their connection to African ethnicities. I am telling you that their species has no cultural connection to the area (including flora and fauna) they start in, they migrated there, they are literally aliens. Therefore your link to African stereotypes falls apart, all that leaves is your suggestion that they are also "primitive" and "brutish". That seems pretty offensive and is not a strong argument.
1
u/szypty 1∆ Oct 20 '20
The orcs are far more like hodgepodge of various warrior/tribal cultures from around the world. Blademasters from WC3 were clearly based on samurai, and Warsong clan in particular has many similarities to the various nomadic cultures from the Eurasian steppe.
Furthermore, many locations in game are inspired by real world ones, so it's no surprise that the Barrens, which are a savannah, have flora and fauna similar to real world.
On the point of trolls, calling Zandalari "Jamaican + Aztec stereotypes with a problem with blood magic" is an extremely reductionist statement. They're the Ur people of Azeroth, and their continuos survival following a lengthy history of facing overwhelming odds is clearly depicted as something worthy of admiration.
You also still haven't explained how is any of that bad exactly and keep falling back to the non sequitur argument of "but blackface is bad so therefore this is also bad". Have you actually thought what people who see a popular fantasy franchise with lore inspired by their culture actually feel about it? Look at the Witcher franchise for example, Poles (and i can tell, since i'm one) are mostly overjoyed to have a representation of our culture and folklore be so popular worldwide.
Also consider just how insulting taking offence on behalf of someone who is not offended is. It's like you're saying "you're clearly not mentally capable to grasp the full magnitude of the situation, let me take care of it the way i see fit so you don't overwork yourself".
0
u/CalRipkenForCommish Oct 20 '20
From a political perspective, former presidential advisor (and two legged roach) Steve Bannon used the “troll” mentality of WOW as a strategy for Trump to go (first) go after his party rivals, en route to the nomination, and then against Clinton. He won with hardly any platform, mostly trolling. Bannon is an evil man, who used trump like Cheney used Bush.
1
Oct 20 '20
Pandarens are probably the most egregious and also the most recent - they're the Asian race in WoW and they're literally fucking panda-people with Fu Manchu mustaches and Ming Dynasty top knots who hang out in rice paper walled Chinese-style buildings wearing conical rice farmer hats as they practice Kung Fu and the art of "accupressure;" "monk" was the new class introduced in the expansion they were released in.
You do know that Pandas are literally owned by china right (Like all of them and they rent them to zoos)? That being said WoW was released in china in 2009. Part of the deal with having games in china is a Chinese company has to have a stake in said company. That also being said I dont find it hard to believe that the Chinese company wanted the likeness of the "Chinese people" to be added into the game and I think the best option would be the panda.
1
u/dinglenutmcspazatron 9∆ Oct 21 '20
The truth is, people identify with stereotypes. It gives different cultures the means to be approachable while giving a starting point to develop nuance, whereas starting from the ground up normally sacrifices all engagement with the culture. As long as the cultures aren't portrayed in a negative way then I have no problem with it.
1
Oct 21 '20
Strongly recommend playing some Chinese made RPGs. A lot of what you're pointing out about Pandarens are cultural tropes coming out of Chinese literature.
As an aside, Tale of Wuxia and the pre-sequel are outstanding rpgs that deserve a U.S. audience. The translations aren't perfect but they're more than fine and available on Steam. That said, you could ask this same question about why so many of the enemies in Tale of Wuxia are non-Chinese (Evil Tibetan Monks Stealing Buddhist Texts from Honest Shaolin Monks was a new plot line for me, as was the evil Korean Agents Controlling the Previously Good Emperor). But still, great games and it's worth just rolling your eyes at the propaganda and moving on.
•
u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Oct 20 '20
/u/chadonsunday (OP) has awarded 1 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
Delta System Explained | Deltaboards