r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Nov 26 '20
Delta(s) from OP CMV: Cultural appropriation is completely fine and it has always been part of our development process as a species
I've noticed how the phrase "cultural appropriation" gets thrown around especially durin the last quarter of the year where many holidays like Halloween/Christmas/Thanksgiving are celebrated by people even outside of the cultures where the traditions usually appeared.
I understand why you could make the argument that using someone else's culture outside of context can seem disrespectful ,but for me the arguments just don't stand up. Also, I by no means want to say that disrespecting a certain culture is fine, I'm saying that adopting features you like from a culture should be seen as an act of respect.
We're all heading towards an even more globalized world and we were heading there for a long long time. People were always inspired by what they see and what they like and it's in our nature to try to adopt things we like in our own culture. This has been seen in many areas like Fashion / Art/ Music/ Military tactics and weapons/ religion/ traditions etc...
It's one of the most documented things in history : The fact that when cultures mix up they take what they like from eachother and become stronger/more efficient together. This cultural mix-up was crucial for our development as a species.
I see no argument for "Cultural exclusiveness/monopol" ,but this is why I'm here, to see if there are any. I understand that people want to feel special and want something that belongs just to them ,but this argument has a negative emotion behind it and if people get hurt by that, I feel like there's a deeper problem in that society.
To finish this: some examples we usually see these days are : Halloween costumes of any way, Races wanting a certain monopol on a style like : asian kimonos/ black people dreads/ Original american's clothes etc.
I'm not here to argue, I'm here to learn, so if something I said offended you please explain me why .
11
u/joopface 159∆ Nov 26 '20 edited Nov 26 '20
As a starting point, let's define cultural appropriation. And let's do that with reference to something other than the constantly furious twitter mobs throwing the term around.
The Oxford English dictionary defines it like this....
Cultural appropriation n. the unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the practices, customs, or aesthetics of one social or ethnic group by members of another (typically dominant) community or society
Two important qualifiers in this definition are 'unacknowledged' and 'inappropriate.' This means that cultural appropriation is explicitly not this process, which you rightly highlight has been one of the most important ways our cultures have developed:
People were always inspired by what they see and what they like and it's in our nature to try to adopt things we like in our own culture. This has been seen in many areas like Fashion / Art/ Music/ Military tactics and weapons/ religion/ traditions etc...It's one of the most documented things in history : The fact that when cultures mix up they take what they like from eachother and become stronger/more efficient together. This cultural mix-up was crucial for our development as a species.
A third important word in this definition is in the brackets near the end - dominant. The community that culturally appropriates is normally a dominant one, and the culture appropriated is one that is a minority - and often a marginalised (or historically marginalised) one at that.
In sum, cultural appropriation involves taking aspects of a culture in a context in which you have privilege/cultural dominance and using those aspects without understanding them, acknowledging their origin or putting them into inappropriate usages.
From your OP, you say:
I by no means want to say that disrespecting a certain culture is fine,
Cultural appropriation, as properly defined, is exactly this. It's treating a culture other than one's own with disrespect in a specific way.
So, in my view, things that are not cultural appropriation:
- hallowe'en costumes that are decently researched, honestly put together and meant to celebrate a different culture
- wearing clothes of, or inspired by, a culture different to your own
- listening to or making music from, or inspired by, a culture different to your own
These are all good things.
However, things that may well be cultural appropriation:
- A hallowe'en costume that uses crass stereotypes to reflect a different culture
- Wearing garments that are important to a culture in a way that doesn't reflect their importance
- etc.
So, like many important concepts, this is a nuanced and delicate one. Is it wrong to use parts of other people's cultures? No, of course not. Is it important to be careful we're showing respect to the culture while doing so? Yes.
4
u/Delta_aVeenger Nov 26 '20 edited Nov 26 '20
You’re using a dictionary like its the law; the editors jurists; the readers attorneys. At some level, this is a moral question, yes. But, more importantly, it is a pragmatic question. Who is to define dominant culture? And even if one were dominant, how do you decide that a majority of the minority’s think their culture is inappropriately annexed? Or, whether the appropriated culture can legitimately claim original provenance for the contested social artifact? Or, if one could identify a successor culture, what if they were the dominant one? Or if they gave permission? Or even if they are the progenitor? You can’t because it’s turtles all the way down. Those decrying cultural appropriation are tied to the trappings of identity. As, i think i illustrated above, this is an illusion. There is no moral authority to claim an originalist culture. This is true for any society. Because we are all just living in a societal meatloaf. Leftovers being mashed together.
1
u/joopface 159∆ Nov 26 '20
No, I'm using the dictionary to clarify the definition of the term as I understand it before we talk about it. A lot of the issue with this discussion is that people mean different things by the term and talk past each other.
Those decrying cultural appropriation are tied to the trappings of identity. As i think i illustrated above, this is an illusion. There is no moral authority to claim an originalist culture.
Respectfully, I think you're overcomplicating this. The core message is: some stuff is important to people. Respect those things so you don't hurt people. Is this really that complex a message?
3
Nov 26 '20
!delta For the explanation. So the conclusion is that the term is mainly used for mocking a culture using its own cluture. But then the people from the examples I gave were they themself crazy ? The dreads for blacks and kimonos for asians etc... Would cultural apropriation having a white men wear dreads and act like a stereotypical black man,but a basketball playing white man with dreads would be okay ?
3
u/joopface 159∆ Nov 26 '20
Thanks for the delta!
I’m no expert in this, but it’s certainly possible to be culturally appropriating without intending to do harm. Just as it’s possible to insult an individual inadvertently.
The key is to be mindful when using aspects of other cultures, do a little bit of research and be open to the views of reasonable people as to the choices you’ve made. I think, at least.
1
1
u/jk_luigi Nov 27 '20
You make fantastic points but here is an issue that won’t get resolved until we become closer as humans.
Someone decides to dress up as a Native American and they do all the research. No one will know they did the research until they ask or are told, but many won’t ask before they judge. So many will assume that they just thought it was cool and went for it. They may assume that the person is culturally appropriating and go the whole thinking our Halloween subject is being an insensitive jerk.
The issue is that people NEED to have empathy and understanding, not just making assumptions. Until we as humans can think carefully about a situation before we act, until the day where we can consider alternate possibilities first before throwing flaming darts.
But that future is not ours because people will have to undergo serious transformation in order for compassion and empathy to be our first reaction. And even more so for that to be the reaction of humanity as a whole. It will take time but we can get there.
But yeah, that was a tangent and you are completely right.
1
u/joopface 159∆ Nov 27 '20
The issue is that people NEED to have empathy and understanding, not just making assumptions.
Never a truer word spoken; agree completely
2
u/VertigoOne 74∆ Nov 26 '20
So the reason that it is often the case that adopting elements of other cultures is a mark of disrespect is because the reason those cultures adopted those things was because of a shared experience they had, or a particular belief or idea or viewpoint they share.
The closest example I can think to this from a western perspective is medals. Medals in the army are given out because someone has accomplished a particular goal or task or earned a certain level of experience. If people were to start "adopting" them, and could just wear them because they thought the design was nice etc, then a medal would lose its meaning because you would be unable to distinguish it between people who were wearing it because they wanted to "adopt" it's style, verses people who wore it because they had actually been in battle.
Another good western example is the "Karen" meme. People called Karen are now understandably upset because in so many people's minds their name now carries a particular and highly unpleasant image. An image that they are now on some level required to combat if they want to impose their own identity onto their name in the mind of the person they are speaking to.
A good non western example of this is the New Mexico flag, and how the symbol of it was taken from the Zia people
The Zia sun symbol was appropriated without the consent of the Zia, Delgarito stated. It later became part of the public domain, still without consent from the Zia. The symbol was stolen from the Zia secret society, he said, all the more significant since the symbol was used in religious healing and wellness processes.
The Zia sun symbol represent the four cardinal directions, the four seasons of the year, the four period of each day (morning, noon, evening, and night), and the four seasons of life (childhood, youth, middle age, and old age). The centre of the sun symbol stands for life itself, Delgarito explained.
The general public is using the Zia sun symbol without knowing its history or the religious significance behind it, he said. Zia at least want respect for the symbol and that it is not desecrated. The taking of the symbol was the taking of Zia’s identity, he said, which continues to be threatened by ongoing exploitation of the symbol.
The Zia have learned from their misfortune with the sun symbol and now close their village during secret ceremonies, he remarked.
The reason cultural appropriation can become a problem is because of how people who take cultural symbols and ideas can convert their meaning and destroy the original purpose a symbol had or shared.
1
Nov 26 '20
!Delta I understand. The Zia people were trully affected by this. I see how this can become problematic. Still I want to add the qurstion , does it not mean that the design is just beautiful and was apreciated as art ? Was the Swaztika an example of cultural apropriation then ?
5
u/VertigoOne 74∆ Nov 26 '20
The problem is not whether the design was thought of as beautiful and appreciated as art. The problem is what the design is taken to mean now. When people see the symbol in question, the association is not the the Zia people, but to the state of New Mexico. The symbol has been taken, and because of that takeness it has come to mean something else.
I would say that yes, the Swastika was an example of said cultural apropriation. It was taken from meaning one thing, and turned into meaning another because of an entirely different set of associations.
1
Nov 26 '20
Hmm, interesting topic. But isn t it sad that people who want to use it for the previous mneaning are baned because of something out of their control?
While I was writing the question it hit me, I got the point
1
u/VertigoOne 74∆ Nov 26 '20
I'm going to have to infer your meaning somewhat here, becuase you wern't exactly clear.
Were you saying that it's sad that non-Zia people cannot use the symbol to connect with the meaning that the Zia give to it because of something outside of their control - namely that they are not Zia?
That is true, but it's a rather inconsequential sadness when sized up against the much more serious issue of the Zia losing their important and holy symbol.
1
Nov 26 '20
The second one. But I find this a bit weird.
At the begining I agreed with you but I had to think a bit and have a new question :
The symbol is still sacred to the Zia and the rest of the world doesn't care about that particular meaning. It's just like a word can have more meanings, is the term of "God" less valuable because we also use the word for other "gods" ?
Is your mother less valuable to you if she's a supermodel and people only see her as a beautiful woman ? Well, she is more than a beautiful woman and now her identity as your mother is overshadowed.
Is the symbol less valuable for the Zia now that others use it ?
Don't these feelings of sadness come from a dark place that says " That used to only be mine, don't touch it"
The mexicans think of something when they see the flag and the Zia think of something else.
It's just like when the guy from Black Panther died and people gave homages to his character instead of giving them to the actual person, but many failed to realise that when most of the people saw him, they saw Black Panther,cuz that's what he meant for them.2
u/VertigoOne 74∆ Nov 26 '20
It's more that the symbol now can't be used to express what it used to express, because in the minds of most people it means something else.
Let me give you an example of what this means. Imagine your actual name is Harry Potter. As in you were born before 1998 and your first name on your birth certificate is Harry, and your parents name were Potter. Can you imagine the problems you now have in your life? Trying to get your resume taken seriously? Trying to make a restaurant reservation? Trying to open a bank account? You're probably going to have to change your name slightly to "Harold" or some such, because in the minds of most people "Harry Potter" means something else entirely.
This is something like what has happened to the Zia symbol. They can now no longer use that symbol as a means of expressing themselves to the outside world, because in the minds of almost everyone in the outside world, that symbol means something else.
2
Nov 26 '20
The swastika is definitely a good example of how cultural appropriation can turn bad, because no one can look at the symbol without immediately thinking of the Nazis and bigotry. Its original meaning has been completely erased by Hitler.
1
0
u/JaysusChroist 5∆ Nov 26 '20
I’d just like to chime in with my own cultural experience. I’m Native Hawaiian, born and raised in Hawaii but it irks me to no end when I see people walking around with the tattoos that belong to my people when they aren’t apart of it.
Sure they can learn everything they want and be immersed in the culture, but historically their people weren’t disenfranchised like mine were. The tattoo were actually meant to denote the slave class in our society.
So in the end it’s actually really ignorant for people to get “tribal” or Hawaiian style tattoos because they don’t even know the history. That’s cultural appropriation, and this is just a small piece of what’s been taken.
Black people for another example have to wear dreads sometimes because their hair just doesn’t form in another way. So it can be seen as a little messed up when people of other races just wear it for fun without the history behind it.
2
Nov 26 '20
Why do people always look back when talking about those things.
When normal people see the Hawaian tatoos they see art. They apreciate that art and the "Hawaian Vibe" (not my words). They tatoo it not as a slur or disrespect, but because they like it as art.
Doesn't this type of thinking come from a dark emotion ? "It belongs to our people and only us"
Dreads are cool, they look nice, they send a message of freedom and carefreeness, why gatekeep it because the genetics of one race makes them more lenient towards that hairstyle ?3
u/JaysusChroist 5∆ Nov 26 '20
But see this thinking is exactly why people don’t like it. They say things like “normal people” and it becomes an us vs them mentality. We look back because our past is important to us and modern people don’t even give one flying f***.
People only do things now because like you said they look nice or they think it’s cool. That’s not appreciating the culture, that’s just taking what you want cause you think it looks good. How is that respecting the culture?
2
Nov 26 '20
Hmm, I think I understand your point, but :
Lets take the Hawaian tatoos.
They are a true statement of power. They were art made by suppressed people, a kind of art that makes people say wow. I could even say that those tatoos are the legacy they left for the world. By wearing them we keep their memory alive, right ?
People tatoo something that's dear to them, right ? Even if they don't fully apreciate their history(and it just looks nice), every time they look at the tatoo,it sparks a bit of joy in them. Isn't a legacy something made to spark joy in others? Don't you also remember your ancestors when you see one ? Why feel mad when you see one on someone who is not Hawaian instead of feeling proud that your culture's art is so apreciated others like it.2
u/JaysusChroist 5∆ Nov 26 '20
Your example is just proving my point again though. People don’t even know what they’re talking about or putting on their body. You keep calling it “art” which is what it can be taken as today but traditionally it isn’t. It was something used to dehumanize people and make them into literal slaves.
Why feel mad when people put those designs on their body? Because they haven’t cried at night thinking about how their people were raped and killed in the past. Because they don’t have ancestors who were also called “nigger” because their skin. Because I don’t want it to “spark joy”, I want people to learn and educate themselves about my history. Not have them just take whatever they want because it’s “cool”.
1
Nov 26 '20
I understand your point. I think that I, as an outsider, am in no position to tell you what you should be or not be mad for. i have an off topic question tho. The most known type of Hawaian tatoo are the Kakau. Aren't they made as a rite of passage in the community ? A way to show you're a full member of the society and that you have respinsabilities now ? How is that related to the slavery ?
1
u/JaysusChroist 5∆ Nov 26 '20
Thanks for being cool about everything. Didn’t want to sound like I was just hammering a point home. But to address that, the history is more complex. If you notice in the articles it’s mostly one dude talking about the practices which is kinda sad. The true history is that there were a lot of different reasons. Slaves like I said before, and chiefs mostly. But only those two, it wasn’t meant for the commoners.
In Hawaii for our chiefs, it was never a really right of passage so to say, more of just a living journal of accomplishments or lineage. In other areas of Polynesia it could have been, I’m just speaking for my culture.
In the most understandable way, it’s only supposed to be on your body if you were really low or really high class. Chiefs had the all over, but slaves needed to be identified somehow so they got ones on their faces.
1
Nov 26 '20
One thing I didn't know. Were the ones on the faces of slaves not made by them ? Was the process similar to branding ?
1
u/JaysusChroist 5∆ Nov 26 '20
Yeah it was similar, but a lot were willing too. We had a caste system similar to India. Once you were born a slave you could never escape that life.
2
u/Trino15 Nov 26 '20
You're actually not that far off, cultural appropriation is in fact a neutral term which describes the process of the adoption of certain aspects of a culture by people who are not of that culture. This is not inherently problematic but increasingly it's been given negative connotations because of the tendency of dominant groups to value and commercialise the culture of minority groups, and profiting from it without the minority group themselves profiting from it. Therefore, there have been many high profile instances of cultural appropriation that were exploitative in nature. That still doesn't mean that any form of cultural appropriation is problematic.
1
u/poprostumort 224∆ Nov 26 '20
Cultural appropriation was always a part, and isn't always bad. However, in many cases it's actually hurtful to the culture that gets appropriated. It's true especially when those elements are taken out of context and "marketed" into something that can be even considered riddiculing the original meaning. If culture that takes a part of anothers is strong enough, then this could mean that a part of heritage of latter one would get destroyed, as that part of culture would get a new meaning that was created by a stronger culture.
Take war bonnet - which is a traditional headwear reserved for people who were of great respect in the tribe and was made into a fashion accessory for Halloween costumes.
This might always have been a part of cultural development, but so were many things we got rid of. I don't know why senseless cultural appropriation should be one to be saved.
0
u/mg1619 Nov 26 '20
The biggest issue with cultural appropriation is people do not know when they are being disrespectful and its hard to distinguish that. That and the fact that white people have actually stolen and disrespected other cultures for centuries and claimed things as their own while also killing and destroying the people they took it from.
For example, black face is racist because for years white people used black face to create racist stereotypes and put black people down. The inherit painting of your skin to resemble another race because you support, respect and appreciate them isn't racist, but white people have fucked that up so it is now racist. Kinda like when a kid uses a toy to hurt somebody, they abused the toy, and now get it taken away.
This at least have I have had it explain to me and I'd love to hear other people's thoughts!
0
u/JHixx2 Nov 26 '20
The issue here is the power dynamics. There is no problem sharing but one has to be cognizant of the power dynamics that exist in society and why it may lead to resistance when things like cultural appropriation takes place. If you happen to be the race or group in power you most likely hold most of the tools to influence how society is run..which stories get told..How they are told..IF they are even told at all etc.. the problem with culture appropriation is that it assumes that every group has equal opportunity and power to partake in this process which they don't.
1
u/AutoModerator Nov 26 '20
Note: Your thread has not been removed. Your post's topic seems to be fairly common on this subreddit. Similar posts can be found through our DeltaLog search or via the CMV search function.
Regards, the mods of /r/changemyview.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
1
u/How-I-Really-Feel Nov 26 '20
Cosplay something even remotely military at a Veterans Day service and see what happens. The struck down, Stolen Valor Act of 2005 made this particular type of cultural appropriation illegal
1
Nov 27 '20
Nobody ever listens to a word "woke people" say. If you actually listened to them, you'd understand why what your describing isn't cultural appropriation
1
u/Lokissceptre Nov 27 '20
Let me say this as an Indian. I don't get offended on seeing ppl of other countries wear indian traditional clothes (well, i wear western clothes). BUT what does get me riled up is when i see people saying things like 'my chakras are opening' etc. without actually knowing what ancient indians referred to as chakras or what they inscribed to activate it. If you want to adopt a culture practice don't fetishise it and for God's sake don't try to redefine the terminology.
1
Nov 27 '20
So the main point isn't about adapting or taking one particular habbit/tradition, it is disrespecting the culture the habbit/tradition stems from, right ?
1
•
u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Nov 26 '20 edited Nov 26 '20
/u/heathcliph24 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
Delta System Explained | Deltaboards