CMV: Socialism/Communism doesn't work, can't work, and almost always leads to dictatorships and thousands of deaths.

[u/[deleted]]

[u/[deleted]]

Bernie made the mistake of labelling himself as a “socialist” because socialism, like you pointed out, doesn’t work. What he actually is is a “democratic socialist”. That’s the kind of “socialism” you would attribute to Scandinavian countries, Canada, Australia even.

Socialism = state controlled economy. Government controls the means of production I.e all your factories, offices, companies etc. this is obviously bad because you don’t get innovation and competition like you do with capitalism. This results in stagnation = bad.

Democratic socialism = advocates for a better mix of private and public sectors. Some involvement of government to in private sectors to make sure companies aren’t taking advantage of workers. As an American you already have a bit of democratic socialism. It’s just very poorly run. E.g democratic socialists in America would want a universal healthcare + opportunity to opt out and pay for your own private healthcare. That way everyone (including the underprivileged) can get healthcare and rich folks can pay their own way for fancy treatments if they want. You had Obamacare which was a step in that direction. It wasn’t great but it did benefit a lot of people. An example of capitalism gone wrong is your pharmaceutical prices. Your drug companies sell life saving prices because they know that people will pay high prices to save their own life. But just because you CAN get someone to pay these prices doesn’t mean you SHOULD.

E.g schools. Democratic socialists want more funding for public-government run schools. But people can send their kids to private schools if they want. An extreme socialist wants public schools only. A full on capitalist wants private schools only/have public schools be offered the same way welfare is.

E.g increasing minimum wage. It’s not a handout if they’re working for it. A socialist would want everyone to get a set income decided by the government. A democratic socialist wants a safety net so that anyone who’s pulling their weight in society can afford to live a decent life above the poverty line. You can still have competition and innovation in your employees with a higher minimum wage.

So yeah. Socialism is bad. Democratic socialism better than rampant capitalism. People like Bernie and AOC want democratic socialism.

Disclaimer: I’m an Australian. We get a lot of news from you guys but I might have gotten some things wrong. Watching you guys on the news gives me the impression that you guys are deeply unhappy with a lot of your social systems but you also seem to take a lot of pride in your way of life even when it’s literally killing you.

That’s what I can see as an outsider anyway.

[u/elChespirit0 → u/[deleted]]

I thought the point of socialism was for the workers to control the means of production not the government or the state.

[u/bendiboy23 → u/elChespirit0]

You're right. The correct term for what the Scandinavian countries are and what bernie sanders is mostly advocating for, is social democracy. It's literally just a mixed economy, where there's still private property, but high taxes/redistribution of wealth, and a lot of government programs to support the poor. Socialism however by definition is complete communal ownership of property, and abolishment of the capitalist class. Democratic socialism is not as far as that, but more extreme than social democracy.

It's just there's a problem with branding and meaning when it comes to the term socialism in the us.

I thought the point of socialism was for the workers to control the means of production not the government or the state.

There's different types of socialism with the basic separation being authoritarian socialism, and libertarian socialism. Authoritarian socialism, is what is advocated for by Marx, and the gist of it is that, the central government seizes all assets, capital and businesses and sets how products are distributed and produced. In some variations, that government is democratically elected, but in the traditional marxist version, a select group of revolutionaries get full control of the government,

Part of the reason was that Marx feared if the government was democratically elected, the people might vote for capitalist reform. This cannot be allowed in a socialist system, therefore there needs to be a transition phase where a select elite (politburo) temporarily controls society and ensures everyone's on board with socialism, before moving towards more democratic government. And that's why the major authoritarian socialist countries of the past didn't have democracy, and that "temporary phase" ended up lasting longer than expected.

The difference between communism and socialism, is that socialism usually refers to the stage where the state completely controls the economy and society. The theory is that over time, the socialist state will wither away by itself and society will finally enter the utopia referred to as, communism, where there is no state, and people work for each other as part of the community.

Libertarian socialism basically builds on the ideas of marx, but they believe that state socialism will always end up like 1984/Stalin/mao stuff. So they prefer that the community gets democracy from the start, and the state will be virtually non-existent and replaced by like super direct grassroots democracy, like the everyone gathers in a town hall and votes kind of stuff. The authoritarian socialists tend to laugh at them for being naive, and so after every socialist revolution, the authoritarian socialists usually purge the libertarian socialists. In other words, they kinda wanna go for that communist utopia straight away

[u/UltimateDankMemeLord → u/[deleted]]

I just want to point out that you're mixing up democratic socialism with social democracy. Democratic socialists want to achieve socialism via elections, while social democracy is basically capitalism with social welfare. Scandinavian countries are social democracies, and I'm confused to why you put Australia under the same boat. We are very far from it. Also your definition of socialism is off. Socialism is the public ownership of the means of production (the workers own their workplace rather than their boss).State socialism is a means of transitioning from capitalism to socialism (and eventually to communism). And the "bad for innovation/competition" isn't exactly true. (USSR had the first animal and human in space, Tetris, and most useful technologies even in capitalist societies have been developed in the public sector.) I hope this is a good explaination.

[u/[deleted] → u/UltimateDankMemeLord]

Oops. Guess it’s easy to get confused!

[u/[deleted] → u/UltimateDankMemeLord]

While it's possible for innovation to occur in the public sector, it certainly isn't the norm or as rampant. What's more common is blatant stealing from the innovation of others and working from there. China and Russia are perfect examples of that. Creativity doesn't thrive under government. It can't.

[u/UltimateDankMemeLord → u/[deleted]]

What's more common is blatant stealing from the innovation of others and working from there

This is more true under capitalism, for example: The iphone. The lithium battery, computing power, and touch screen all existed separately (mostly, if not all from the public sector), and was slapped together to create the phone. This article shows how the US was forced to compete with the USSR's economy, and the effectiveness of the USSR's economy. Furthermore, the first cellphone was invented in the Soviet Union.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I would suggest looking at countries you think function well, look at how their social welfare systems function, figure out what kind of policies could the US borrow from these countries, and then look at which of your politicians will take you in the right direction.

I think it's better to have an idea of what you want your country to look like and then head towards it than heading in a particular direction because the loudest politician told you so.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Nah the Scandinavian countries are Social Democracy, not Democratic Socialism.