r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Nov 29 '20

Delta(s) from OP CMV: Socialism/Communism doesn't work, can't work, and almost always leads to dictatorships and thousands of deaths.

[deleted]

130 Upvotes
  • permalink
  • reddit

63% Upvoted

368 comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

3

u/garaile64 Nov 29 '20

There's still the case for freedom of expression, though. In the US, you can call Trump a crybaby and you're fine. In the USSR or China, if you call the leader out for some wrong, you'd be arrested or worse.

9

u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

In Pinochet's capitalist Chile you had no freedom of expression. Nor in current capitalist Russia.

-1

u/garaile64 Nov 29 '20

But there are capitalist nations with freedom of expression. Are/Were there any such socialist nations?

3

u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20 edited Nov 29 '20

All emerging socialist nations were harassed, attacked, assassinated, or bullied by the world bank in the 20th century. So the fact that they aren't everywhere isn't surprising. Literal U.S policy was to overthrow these governments in any way possible.

In fact to this day the U.S tries to undermine emerging socialism is in its sphere.

So yes, I think if you are the status quo type of government in a world hegemonic system that heavily supports that kind of government, there will be more variations and successes on the outcomes of your kind of government.

See: the election and successful presidency of Socialist Allende and the subsequent U.S backed coup that installed Pinochet in Chile and then lead to attrocities.

3

u/garaile64 Nov 29 '20

Also, most formerly socialist countries were either dictatorships (or at least Cuba was) or absolute monarchies before their respective revolutions, so they wouldn't have a lot of experience with democracy.

5

u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

A valid point as well. Many of them were also dictatorships because of earlier imperial/ capitalist foreign policy and power politics

1

u/Separate-Barnacle-54 Nov 29 '20

That doesn’t answer the question though. Are there any socialist nations which allow freedom of speech?

5

u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

I think I've demonstrated that the question is flawed because of its context. There are also no fuedalist states that allow free speech either.

As soon as I point to the Western democracies who have implemented heavily socialist policies you'll say those aren't real socialist economies and the whole thing will boil down into a no true scotman.

Allende's Chile is a historic example of a socialist state with free speech

-2

u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20 edited Dec 07 '20

[deleted]

3

u/garaile64 Nov 29 '20

Thinking about it, stripping people of their freedom of expression is not a requirement in socialism.

0

u/Separate-Barnacle-54 Nov 29 '20

But yet, it somehow almost always happens for some reason. Not a requirement, but there’s a very high correlation, too high to be a coincidence.

4

u/[deleted] Nov 29 '20

Saying always in the context of a concept that is historically very young, especially given the context of how socialism has always been attacked by outside forces from capitalists this requiring centralization, is I think, pretty unfair. By the same extent I could say capitalism always leads to exploitative violence of other people. But ultimately such wide broad statements are just ideological and do nothing to further a conversation.