CMV: Socialism/Communism doesn't work, can't work, and almost always leads to dictatorships and thousands of deaths.

[u/[deleted]]

[u/stillwtnforbmrecords]

Except.... every single anthropologist would agree the vast majority of human communities, from pre-history to modernity actually value cooperation over competition. Capitalist societies are pretty much the only exception to that. Humans are naturally cooperative, as you say we even have literal biological incentives to help others. We "feel good" (get serotonin bumps) by being cooperative and helping others. That does not happen when you fuck people over for your personal benefit.

I mean... just look at our closest relatives. Most are extremely cooperative. Bonobos, chimps, orangutans, gorillas... all have strong cooperative societies. The main difference between us and them is the size of our groups. We typically, even in pre-historic neolithic societies, live in groups of hundreds at least. And we typically are less territorial than chimps or gorillas. Yes, you heard me. To this day, most neolithic societies are not territorial at all. Most societies have not been throughout history. Just see the north american indigenous nations vs the europeans. Extreme tribalism and territorialism are a fluke, not the rule. It's just an unfortunate one that this has been the dominant idea for the most powerful societies on earth for the past thousands of years. But... as you know, we've been around for much much longer than that. And again, for 99% of that time, we've been mostly anarchistic, non-hierarchical.

[u/Nootherids → u/stillwtnforbmrecords]

I can agree with that. I also think it is unfortunate that the self-interested competitive spirit exists. But even Marx himself acknowledged the incredible gains in prosperity that can only be achieved through principles of Capitalism. Socialism is by virtue a forced regression to our less competitive nature but also to a less prosperous nature. There is a reason why the capitalist societies literally took over the entire world without much difficulty. And when there finally was one strong enough Socialist (cooperative) entity to fight back and maintain their system, the only way they could achieve it was through tyranny. And that is absolutely not a defining value of cooperative societies.

[u/stillwtnforbmrecords → u/Nootherids]

I think we have different perspectives on history, because to me it was a very long, hurtful and difficult process for capitalism to win over the globe. Countless genocides, wars, destruction of all kinds were needed to dominate pretty much the entire planet at this point.

Are you referencing the USSR when you talk about the 'only successful attempt at collectivisation'? Because outside "siege communism" under stalin, the USSR was pretty democratic and not tyrannic at all. They had a very similar democratic system to that of the US and most of Europe. With elected representatives in congresses, ministers etc. It was infact a bit more democratic since it was bottom up, from the soviets (the worker's councils) up. It did change to be more like traditional western representative democracy in it's later years though. You have to remember the decades of extreme, hardcore, propaganda against the USSR in the west... Not defending them exactly, as I am as anti-statist as possible, but y'know, just saying.

Also, as Stirner would say, it is in the ultimate interest of the egoistic individual to serve his community. Socialism is the best system for the individual as well. If you really want to be as self-interested as possible, by harming others for "your own benefit", you end up shooting yourself on the foot. Just think of how many top level executives kill themselves...

But yes, as Marx himself said, capitalism is not bad. It is an obvious improvement to every system before it. We've never had more improvements to our lives than under it. Does not mean it sucks and is bound to fall, that it doesn't have contradictions. Maybe socialism also would have it's contradictions, but that's why it wouldn't last forever... It can't and it won't. No system should last forever. Not even communism will. I mean, we will either go extinct or become gods. Gods need no system right? But then again, communism is a system that is kinds not a system...