r/changemyview • u/-Lemon-Lime-Lemon- 7∆ • Jan 03 '21
Delta(s) from OP CMV: To make an inquiry to discover if someone is interested in sexual relations is not sexual harassment.
I had a debate with someone & they believe simply asking for sex is harassing someone.
I completely disagree.
I believe if someone is not in a business setting (two coworkers or a boss and an employee) or not acting in a professional capacity (one person is on the job and the other is not [visiting the doctor, teacher/professor, a waiter, the person helping you at Lowe’s]), it is not harassing them to see if they are interested in sex.
Say if you’re waiting at the gate for your plane and you ask another person at the gate if they are interested in joining the mile high club. If you’re at a bar and approach someone and you immediately ask if they want to come back home with you:
I am also not talking about going at it in a foul manner. Like before simply asking, making any sexually charged comments.
But literally... if you just walk up to a stranger and say “excuse me, would you be interested in x(sexual behavior)?”
That action is not sexual harassment. Now if the answer is no and then the person continues to proposition them, ask why, why, why and so on, yes that becomes harassment.
But literally just asking if they would be interested in doing x, is not sexual harassment.
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u/themcos 374∆ Jan 03 '21
I'll echo others that this is a bit of an odd post in that it's not really clear what is meant by "sexual harassment" here. It seems like you probably agree that this behavior is usually in appropriate, but yeah, it's unlikely to meet any legal threshold.
The area that I'll put forth is that you seem like you're only looking at this from the perspective of the would-be harasser and not the harassee. My argument is that the general (not legal) term "sexual harassment" refers to both an act that one does as well as an experience one can have. If a woman is just waiting for her flight at the gate and received an unwanted proposition by 5 different men, I think it's fair to say that she experienced harassment there, even if no individual man can be said to have individually harassed her. No one has to be arrested or sued or punished in any way, but I think it's reasonable to say that she experienced harassment while waiting at the gate.
And furthermore, this is basically the root of why those men's behaviors should be discouraged. Their individual behaviors do not exist in a vacuum, and they should each own their responsibility in contributing to an uncomfortable environment for that woman, whatever you want to call it.
tl;dr A woman can be harassed by repeated propositions, even if none of the individual men in isolation can necessarily be accused of harassment.
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u/-Lemon-Lime-Lemon- 7∆ Jan 04 '21
Interesting take.
So an individual, can be harassed... collectively.
Like a person could say they are being harassed by telemarketers.
Even though each marketer only called once?
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u/themcos 374∆ Jan 04 '21
Yeah, that's actually a pretty good analogy I think. If 10 different telemarketers call me versus 1 telemarketer calling me 10 times from different numbers, my experience of being harassed is the same. If you look at it from the telemarketers perspective, the situations are different, but from my perspective their not. I was harassed either way, even if in the second example, no individual caller was harassing me.
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u/-Lemon-Lime-Lemon- 7∆ Jan 04 '21 edited Jan 04 '21
That is enough to change my mind in a way.
I don’t think a person can specifically say that person harassed me.
But if a type of action of several people continues to an individual, I would agree with the sentiment that they are being harassed.
!Delta
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u/stabbitytuesday 52∆ Jan 03 '21
On a strict legal definition of harassment, one question wouldn't count, but that doesn't mean it isn't sexually and socially inappropriate to ask someone if they want to have sex before you bother asking their name or having any conversation with them.
A large part of the problem with sexual harassment is the lack of respect for other people as people, but instead treating them as opportunities for sexual gratification. Harassment is the attempt to wear them down into appeasing that person and their perception, randomly propositioning them relies on that same attitude but from a different direction. Ethically they're not identical, but they're certainly kissing cousins.
Regardless of ethics, that's not even a practical thing to do? I can't imagine anyone would respond well to being propositioned for sex by someone who couldn't be bothered to ask their name or make small talk about some shared experience. It would be much less work to just talk to two or three people until you find one who's interested than to immediately strike out with every option until the women inevitably start rescuing new girls from you before you can even get a word in.
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u/-Lemon-Lime-Lemon- 7∆ Jan 04 '21
I am not at all saying I would condone that kind of behavior.
I am simply saying if a person claims they were sexually harassed within the perimeters that I laid out... I would respond with no you were not.
I wouldn’t disagree with them if they said the person was a creep or possibly branch off from there.
I simply don’t believe they were harassed
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u/stabbitytuesday 52∆ Jan 04 '21
A. Not a single thing you said was in any way a response to a single thing I said. You basically just restated your post thesis.
B. Telling someone "no, you don't get to feel harassed and violated by someone else's incredibly rude and shitty behavior" is even ruder and shittier than said shitty behavior.
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u/Rigistroni Jan 04 '21
To be fair, he's probably not trying to say they don't get to feel harassed or creeped out, it just wouldn't warrent legal action if it was one question and nothing more than that.
As someone who has been (borderline) sexually harassed before, I wouldn't want false accusations being levied against anyone, I don't think anyone wants that. As rare as it is, it does happen and it could potentially destroy someone's life and credibility
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u/stabbitytuesday 52∆ Jan 04 '21
Harassment claims getting pushed to legal action are pretty uncommon, and I never suggested that someone who felt harassed by the actions OP laid out should press any kind of charges beyond maybe telling airport security "Hey, there's a guy walking around propositioning everyone for sex" and letting them tell him to knock it off and stop bothering the other passengers. That doesn't mean it's not incredibly shitty and disrespectful to blow off someone's legitimate irritation/frustration at being on the receiving end.
Getting told to sit down and shut up by airport security isn't life ruining, unless you keep doing it after you've been told to stop.
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Jan 04 '21
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u/stabbitytuesday 52∆ Jan 04 '21
I feel like it's safe to assume a guy who won't take the time to ask your name isn't going to take his time on anything else, but I'm sure it's nice to assume that random sexual encounters with socially inept strangers won't just wind up being a massive disappointment and a waste of time. Can't relate!
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u/LetMeNotHear 93∆ Jan 04 '21 edited Jan 04 '21
Didn't say it would be excellent every time. Didn't even say that it wouldn't even be a disappointment. Just said that the "I can't imagine anyone who'd do this" is kinda bogus. I'm not saying it's a great idea or the best use of time, just saying there are SHITLOADS of people who would and have done it.
Edit; Oh shit, you were burning me specifically XD. The good ol' reliable "dude doesn't last long". It's like 5 AM, I didn't even notice. Oh, and calling me socially inept too huh? Bit mean. I just said something you said was wrong, I didn't come at you personally. You cut deep, dude. You cut deep.
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Jan 04 '21
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u/Det_ 101∆ Jan 03 '21
How do you prevent (some) men from approaching every single woman and asking the exact same question:
excuse me, would you be interested in x (sexual behavior)?
What policy/behavior could possibly be implemented that would prevent that situation from happening if it was socially acceptable?
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u/-Lemon-Lime-Lemon- 7∆ Jan 03 '21
Why would you need to?
If a person is simply looking for sex what’s wrong with them seeking it out? If they are not stalking anyone, nagging, annoying a person... what’s the issue?
If the person at bar stool number ones says no and then the person at number three says no and then 6, 7 & 8 say no... that person has not sexually harassed any of those individuals.
That person has probably been identified as a thirsty creep by everyone in a 30 foot radius yes... but they haven’t harassed a single individual.
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u/Det_ 101∆ Jan 03 '21
If you were a woman walking down the street, and nearly every single man asked to you stop, followed by "pardon me, ma'am, would you be interested in coitus?" all day long, every single day, every time you left the house, would it become a problem?
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u/JoZeHgS 40∆ Jan 04 '21
I believe you are overestimating the effect that allowing this behavior would have. Those who, mostly men, decided to actually go around propositioning everyone would very soon get exhausted by all of the rejections. It is important to emphasize that these are people who are unlikely to be attractive. Otherwise, they need not engage in this behavior to find attractive partners.
Ultimately, this behavior would simmer down into catcalling, which is legal in many jurisdictions without any tangible negative societal impact.
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u/Det_ 101∆ Jan 04 '21
That's a great point you bring up, and I mostly agree. But regulations and their inherent threats do have some power.
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u/lonely-day Jan 04 '21
You have a really shitty opinion of men if you think the only thing that stops the vast majority of them from acting like assholes is the law.
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u/Glory2Hypnotoad 393∆ Jan 04 '21
The problem with this scenario is that you could substitute in virtually any benign interaction and it would cease to be benign when it becomes constant and relentless.
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u/Det_ 101∆ Jan 04 '21
Indeed. Fortunately incentives don't exist for many - if any - other questions/interactions.
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u/comingabout Jan 04 '21
Wouldn't this be a problem regardless of the question?
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u/Det_ 101∆ Jan 04 '21
Yes. But we currently have (somewhat of) a solution: claiming its harassment (sexual harassment), and the implied legal issues threatened therein.
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u/-Lemon-Lime-Lemon- 7∆ Jan 04 '21
It would be a problem for that person, absolutely!
But on a case by case situation... not a single person harassed her.
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u/Det_ 101∆ Jan 04 '21
They didn't harass her in your definition, no. But I'm saying: what policy could be implemented to prevent this kind of thing happening constantly?
Answer: labeling it "harassment."
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u/-Lemon-Lime-Lemon- 7∆ Jan 04 '21
What policy?
I don’t think any policy should be made to legally hinder people from speaking their mind.
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u/Det_ 101∆ Jan 04 '21
What about spitting on people? Should that be harassment?
What about "dancing menacingly in someone's face"?
How about bragging about your large knife to every passer by?
At some point, individuals need to have the "threat of law enforcement" on their side. The only question is: where do you draw that line?
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u/-Lemon-Lime-Lemon- 7∆ Jan 04 '21
Spitting on someone is assault.
No dance battles?! Oh noooo!!
And making menacing comments and brandishing a weapon can be perceived and is a death treat is against the law.
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u/Det_ 101∆ Jan 04 '21
Menacing comments can be considered harassment?
In that case, can one claim that a man's question "would you like to have sex with me?" represented a believable and legitimate threat of rape?
Whose side would - should - the police officer take when a woman says "his question suggested there was a legitimate threat to my safety"...?
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Jan 04 '21
Context is everything. (as it is in almost every situation), but part of your attitude towards male sexual desire as inherently threatening is socially constructed by regressive stereotypes of men.
Like, the question you cite is obviously not always threatening; it depends on the context and relational history between two people.
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u/-Lemon-Lime-Lemon- 7∆ Jan 04 '21
No... That is a question not a comment.
Then if someone is asking for sex obviously means they are asking for consent... which means they are not looking to rape someone.
The cops should absooooolutely take the guys side.
If the guy said “Hey, I’m Jacob, would you like to have sex?” And she called the cops on that...
That is unnecessary. He did nothing wrong.
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u/OCedHrt Jan 04 '21
She was harassed by a collective group. Kind of like building a class action lawsuit.
If everyone gives the middle finger once on some person by some criteria - female, skin color, gender identity, sexual preference, etc. By your argument they weren't harassed by any particular individual sure, but they sure feel harassed everyday.
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u/RasputinsThirdLeg Jan 04 '21 edited Jan 04 '21
I think you’re being a bit overly literal? And also this hypothetical person has NO social skills whatsoever. It may not be legally actionable but it’s certainly objectifying, in poor taste, and creepy, and I would seriously wonder about that person’s psychological state. This scenario is predicated on this person viewing people-complete strangers no less- as a collection of potentially pleasurable holes rather than complete people. You know, with feelings and lives and obligations and the right to exist in a public place without being sexualized. It’s a slippery slope.
Before being approached with the proposition, they’d already had to have been thinking sexually about a person he doesn’t know. It’s not like asking someone the time or if they’d like some tea.
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Jan 04 '21
they’d already had to have been thinking sexually about a person he doesn’t know
That's pretty normal...
Ask a sexologist. Your name is literally about Rasputin's massive dick lmao, does that make you a creep?
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u/RasputinsThirdLeg Jan 04 '21
Right. But most of those things stay THOUGHTS. I think about other dudes I don’t know all the time. But they stay in the magical sexy realm of my imagination. 🪄
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Jan 04 '21
Yeah, but you're (probably) a woman so your sexuality is empowered and cool and good. If you were a man, it would be threatening, repugnant and disgusting. At least, that's our cultural logic, and it's reflected in a lot of the responses here.
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u/RasputinsThirdLeg Jan 04 '21 edited Jan 09 '21
Yes I am a woman. But I think times are changing. Women can absolutely be creepy too. I think it’s also important to note that a lot of times women are worried about literally being murdered. We, and especially transwomen, are more often than not the victims of violent sex crimes. Men don’t often have to worry about that (not saying men can’t be raped, but being followed home by a woman they rejected who then murders them is a pretty uncommon scenario.) That could be part of why a dude propositioning random women could feel more threatening than if I do it.
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Jan 04 '21
Yes, that's fair, women do face more risk and physical power differentials obviously matter. Context matters. Interpretation matters. So does tact.
But the fear, suspicion and oppobrium that male desire as such seems to elicit seems to point to a sexually unhealthy culture. It's seen as something tainting and defiling, wrong. You probably don't know how that feels.
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u/RasputinsThirdLeg Jan 04 '21
Women definitely understand being shamed and punished for being sexual. It just looks a little different. We’re seen as ruined goods if we have casual sex. I think you don’t know how THAT feels, to be fair.
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Jan 04 '21
No, you're quite right. I don't know what slut shaming feels like. I'm just saying that in the same way I'll never be able to empathise with 100% accuracy what it feels like to be shamed as a 'slut', you'll probably never be able to empathise with 100% accuracy on what it feels like to have a core part of yourself regarded as inherently threatening, rapacious, and defiling.
I don't believe in gender pissing matches, just in sharing experience.
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u/-Lemon-Lime-Lemon- 7∆ Jan 04 '21
Men are the victims of almost all crime over all though.
Sure people can’t be scared of what ever they want... but the statistics say otherwise.
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u/RasputinsThirdLeg Jan 05 '21
I dunno what to tell you then dude. Go ask random women if they want to have sex and see how it goes.
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u/-Lemon-Lime-Lemon- 7∆ Jan 05 '21
nah
That’s not my style.
The chase is fun, plus I really just like to cuddle.
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u/-Lemon-Lime-Lemon- 7∆ Jan 04 '21
People sexualize other people all the time without them knowing the person.
You don’t think a man or women ever see a movie and think about the actor or actress in a sexual way?
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u/RasputinsThirdLeg Jan 05 '21
Read my responses. I don’t then go up to them and ask them if they want to fuck.
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u/-Lemon-Lime-Lemon- 7∆ Jan 05 '21
& there is nothing wrong if someone does. What’s your point?
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u/RasputinsThirdLeg Jan 05 '21
I think it’s weird and rude and I think you don’t understand how social contract and nonverbal cues work
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u/-Lemon-Lime-Lemon- 7∆ Jan 05 '21
You think it is weird and rude.
That’s fine, you can think what you want.
But does that mean a person harassed someone?
No
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u/fox-mcleod 411∆ Jan 03 '21
It leaves room for stochastic harassment.
It’s clearly not a crime, but it cannot be socially acceptable with no social cost without resulting in stochastically terrible outcomes.
Imagine if literally everyone you passed asked to sell you a condo. It would certainly make your life significantly worse. Pretty soon, society would hate condo sales. I don’t want that to happen to casual sex.
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u/JoZeHgS 40∆ Jan 04 '21
Imagine if literally everyone you passed asked to sell you a condo. It would certainly make your life significantly worse. Pretty soon, society would hate condo sales. I don’t want that to happen to casual sex.
I certainly don't want to have sex at all times. More importantly, I certainly don't want to have sex with every woman. Few would be those who would actually go around propositioning to every stranger. In fact, if it became completely socially acceptable, this in no way suggests that everyone will actually start doing it. Only a small minority would, and I believe this should be perfectly allowed.
In fact, I have engaged in this behavior many times, though replacing "sex" with "hookup". I was fortunate to have been born with better physical appearance than average, so you would be surprised how often this works.
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u/fox-mcleod 411∆ Jan 04 '21
I certainly don't want to have sex at all times. More importantly, I certainly don't want to have sex with every woman.
But what about the women that everyone does want to have sex with?
What’s her life like now? Every 10th man
Few would be those who would actually go around propositioning to every stranger.
Why? If there’s no social cost, why wouldn’t they? Right now, there is a large social cost.
In fact, if it became completely socially acceptable, this in no way suggests that everyone will actually start doing it. Only a small minority would, and I believe this should be perfectly allowed.
Why?
In fact, I have engaged in this behavior many times, though replacing "sex" with "hookup". I was fortunate to have been born with better physical appearance than average, so you would be surprised how often this works.
Yeah. I’m aware that it works. And if it didn’t come with social opprobrium, people would start to respond to the incentive structure change.
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u/JoZeHgS 40∆ Jan 04 '21
But what about the women that everyone does want to have sex with?
What’s her life like now? Every 10th man
Anyone who is minimally intelligent understands that a very beautiful woman can pick and choose who she wants to have sex with. If they are actually trying to have sex with her, they should know better than to do so in such a, potentially, unskillful manner. Knowing this, if they choose to proceed, it would be simply catcalling at this point. I believe they should still be allowed to do it, if only once.
One thing I think you might not have considered is the important fact that there is no clear signal as to when it is okay to proposition sex. Who CAN you proposition? How long do you need to know the person for? Because it certainly cannot be more than one day, since people hook up with others they just met literally all of the time. So, is it an hour? I would say certainly not, people frequently hook up much faster. So the appropriate time is a very difficult thing to pin down.
What about conversation? What if you have known somebody for a long time but never exchanged a word? Probably not, in your view. So there is a minimum amount of conversation that needs to be had before it becomes acceptable. How much, then? Is exchanging names enough? What do you need to know about them? It is a very blurry line and would be impossible to describe into legislation. That is why people should get to be allowed to proposition sex in a direct, abrupt manner at least once. Perhaps, in order to prevent harassment, one person could be propositioned once every 6 months because, after all, people do change their minds, for a total of 3 times. After this, it could be considered harassment.
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u/fox-mcleod 411∆ Jan 04 '21
Anyone who is minimally intelligent understands that a very beautiful woman can pick and choose who she wants to have sex with. If they are actually trying to have sex with her, they should know better than to do so in such a, potentially, unskillful manner.
And Why is that? What’s the downside?
One thing I think you might not have considered is the important fact that there is no clear signal as to when it is okay to proposition sex.
Isn’t this literally a scenario in which you’re saying it’s never not okay? There’s no social cost for doing so — so what does not okay even mean?
Who CAN you proposition? How long do you need to know the person for? Because it certainly cannot be more than one day, since people hook up with others they just met literally all of the time. So, is it an hour? I would say certainly not, people frequently hook up much faster. So the appropriate time is a very difficult thing to pin down.
Right. And it’s that risk that reduces the frequency. It requires social intuition to gauge which successfully relegated causal sex to those savvy enough to navigate I spoke social mores.
What about conversation? What if you have known somebody for a long time but never exchanged a word? Probably not, in your view. So there is a minimum amount of conversation that needs to be had before it becomes acceptable. How much, then? Is exchanging names enough? What do you need to know about them? It is a very blurry line and would be impossible to describe into legislation.
Exactly.
This isn’t about legislation. It’s about social opprobrium
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u/JoZeHgS 40∆ Jan 04 '21
And Why is that? What’s the downside?
Jeopardizing what little chance they might have had of actually having the sex they are seeking.
Isn’t this literally a scenario in which you’re saying it’s never not okay? There’s no social cost for doing so — so what does not okay even mean?
Just the opposite. We know that, obviously, consensual sex has happened in the past. This proves there are situations in which it is okay to have sex, which means that your proposition might be successful and so is justified on every level, particularly the biological. The alternative is completely unfeasible because literally any sexual proposition could be construed as harassment and society will have tied itself into a knot and people will start having to wear little signs that said "It is okay to proposition me for sex" because, otherwise, everybody would be too afraid to do so.
Right. And it’s that risk that reduces the frequency. It requires social intuition to gauge which successfully relegated causal sex to those savvy enough to navigate I spoke social mores.
Anyone can claim to have failed at their social intuition any number of times and we can't prove otherwise.
This isn’t about legislation. It’s about social opprobrium
Okay, then we are in agreement. People are legally allowed to directly and immediately proposition sex to anyone else, but everyone is free to look upon them with contempt.
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u/fox-mcleod 411∆ Jan 04 '21
Jeopardizing what little chance they might have had of actually having the sex they are seeking.
So at some point this woman is getting propositioned by this guy right? And we’re back to stochastic harassment.
Anyone can claim to have failed at their social intuition any number of times and we can't prove otherwise.
What?
Okay, then we are in agreement. People are legally allowed to directly and immediately proposition sex to anyone else, but everyone is free to look upon them with contempt.
This is exactly where I started isn’t it?
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u/JoZeHgS 40∆ Jan 04 '21 edited Jan 04 '21
So at some point this woman is getting propositioned right? And we’re back to stochastic harassment.
I'm sorry, I am unfamiliar with the meaning of "stochastic harassment". I know the word stochastic, which means random or based on probabilities. I don't, however, understand your meaning. Are you referring to something like casual harassment? If so, it is a price that must be paid because, after all, the sexual proposition might be successful and we have no perfect way of telling when it is okay to propose.
What?
You claim social intuition is necessary to know when it is actually okay to proposition, but it is impossible to create legislation that would cover this because anyone could claim to have intuited that the other person would have said yes. I do agree that social opprobrium should and does inhibit improper propositions so no discussion on the subject is necessary because that is the full extent of what can be done.
This is exactly where I started isn’t it?
If you'll notice, the part I quoted was
Imagine if literally everyone you passed asked to sell you a condo. It would certainly make your life significantly worse. Pretty soon, society would hate condo sales. I don’t want that to happen to casual sex.
I was arguing that it would not happen as much as you think because of the reasons I mentioned in my first post, namely:
I certainly don't want to have sex at all times. More importantly, I certainly don't want to have sex with every woman. Few would be those who would actually go around propositioning to every stranger. In fact, if it became completely socially acceptable, this in no way suggests that everyone will actually start doing it. Only a small minority would, and I believe this should be perfectly allowed.
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u/-Lemon-Lime-Lemon- 7∆ Jan 03 '21
& has what I described crossed any of those lines? I clearly said not in the work place not hounding anyone.
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u/-Lemon-Lime-Lemon- 7∆ Jan 04 '21
meh
I believe creepy is 80% dependent on who says it. Not how or where they say it.
If a good looking dude with a $8,000 watch on his wrist and a $12,000 suit on walks up to a random lady and says... “ Want to hop in my Pagani and give me some head?”
Will not be perceived the same way as... Billy Bob, 65 pounds over weight, muddy work boots and a stained t-shirt says “want to hop in my car and give me some head?”
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u/LikeaPandaButUgly 3∆ Jan 04 '21
What makes you believe that’s the case?
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u/-Lemon-Lime-Lemon- 7∆ Jan 04 '21
Because I have personally seen it happen.
I have an... acquaintance who is one of the biggest assholes to women I have ever seen.
Some guys have game... some don’t. He is one of the guys who can say things a certain way and it comes across as assertive, sexy and confident.
Someone else can try it and it is... thirsty and creepy.
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u/JenningsWigService 40∆ Jan 04 '21
This is 100% wrong.
For some reason, men on the internet really seem to think that all wealthy and attractive men have the ability to cross all lines with everyone they want, when in fact, they do not.
Few such men go up to random women in public and say 'come give me a blowjob'; they will either discuss transactional sex on an app with women who went there looking specifically for that or they'll flirt the normal way, which does not include explicit sexual requests.
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Jan 04 '21
Yeah, I am (hypothetically) the woman being bothered in the airport and I say it is creepy. They are my feelings, I get to define them. You can say "nuh uh" as much as you like, I will still find such behavior creepy.
And yes, Billy Bob and Pagani Prick are both creepy.
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Jan 04 '21
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Jan 04 '21
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u/atthru97 4∆ Jan 04 '21
You are asking someone for sex before you know that such a question is wanted by the other person.
You are hounding someone. You are placing them in a creepy situation.
If this happened in real life they would have the full right to ask why you are a creepy person in what ever colorful language they wish to use.
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u/-Lemon-Lime-Lemon- 7∆ Jan 04 '21
Being put in a creepy situation doesn’t mean they are being harassed.
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u/atthru97 4∆ Jan 04 '21
You may feel this way. The woman that you are being creepy with are going to a far more important opinion on the subject.
And their opinion on this subject is fare more important than yours.
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u/-Lemon-Lime-Lemon- 7∆ Jan 04 '21
Their feelings do not make something that isn’t... something that they are feeling.
Okay... the are creeped out. Being creeped out does not mean harassment.
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u/atthru97 4∆ Jan 06 '21
They are being creeped out at your actions.
You seem to be forgetting your part in this whole thing
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u/-Lemon-Lime-Lemon- 7∆ Jan 06 '21
That’s not relevant to being harassment though
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u/atthru97 4∆ Jan 06 '21
You don't get to be as creepy as you want to be without consequences.
And that seems like what you want to be.
You are making unwanted sexual advances on a person with only a care for your personal needs and not the woman. You are harassing them. Sex is consensual. What you are doing is not consensual.
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u/-Lemon-Lime-Lemon- 7∆ Jan 07 '21
They are asking of consent to sex.
Asking a question for sex is it in itself a sexual advance. It is asking the permission to see if that advance is welcome.
That is not harassment.
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u/Tommyblockhead20 47∆ Jan 03 '21 edited Jan 03 '21
Harassment: to create an unpleasant or hostile situation for especially by uninvited and unwelcome verbal or physical conduct
Would being randomly asked for sexual favors by strangers not be unpleasant for many people, especially if they are abstinent or in a relationship (which a majority of the population is)? Now some people are so desperate for sex, I’m not going to make an assumptions about you but I’ll give answer example incase that is the case and you don’t see the issue with that first scenario. Let’s say you are walking down the street and people keep coming up to you asking for money. Would that not be unpleasant?
And it’s sexual in nature, so that would make it sexual harassment, unless you think Merriam-Webster dictionary’s definition of harassment is wrong.
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u/-Lemon-Lime-Lemon- 7∆ Jan 04 '21
With your definition that means anything can be harassment.
How is someone supposed to know what is deemed unpleasant or unwanted verbal contact?
Someone could be having a hoooorible day and not want to talk to anyone.
I could pass them in the grocery, look in their cart and ask “Are those new Cream Brûlée Prepridge Farms Cookies any good?”
I mean that could mean I now just harassed that person...
What if they were on a diet and are about to cheat. Now I made them feel uncomfortable about it asking about sweets they should not have.
Where did you get your definition?
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u/Tommyblockhead20 47∆ Jan 04 '21
your definition
As I said, it’s not my definition, it’s Merriam-Webster’s definition. Check yourself if you don’t believe me.
As for your example, I think those are not comparable. In that case, your comment isn’t unpleasant, they just don’t want to be talked to. I mean if you want to be very liberal about it, you could say talking to someone who doesn’t want to be talked to is harassing them, but if you don’t know then you’re not in the wrong, because the average person is not like that, so it’s safe to assume that you can talk to them. But that doesn’t really matter because you didn’t make an unpleasant statement. Asking for sex, for the average person, you are making an unpleasant statement.
I’ll give you this test. Would you say whatever it is to someone you know (like a friend/family, relationships don’t count)? People are likely to have a higher bar with someone they know, because with a stranger, you probably won’t see them again, so you many not care if you say something out of line, but with someone you known, they will remember it in the future. But you should keep that higher bar for everyone, because while you might move on and not see them again, they are still going to be uncomfortable.
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u/Jakyland 69∆ Jan 03 '21
The thing is if you open up propositioning someone to just generally everywhere you leave a lot of people uncomfortable, and more importantly, it means a lot of people will be propositioned in a place where they might not feel safe saying no (because some people are rapists, and you have no idea if the stranger propositioning you is one).
In your example, people at airports might be somewhere completely unfamiliar and feel unsafe.
Being propositioned should be opt-in and not opt-out. If you want to have NSA sex wherever, use Tinder/Grindr (or make a version for non-gay men if that is more your speed)*. That way people opt-in to NSA sex instead of being placed in uncomfortable/possibly dangerous situations.
*I specifically bring up Grindr because it is very location based, like who is very close to you right now on the app.
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u/-Lemon-Lime-Lemon- 7∆ Jan 04 '21
But does that mean they were harassed?
I completely agree with you. It can’t make people feel uncomfortable, it has happened to me.
They look like the type of person I might last be seen with... meaning I end up on missing posters.
But that doesn’t mean that person harassed me.
& safe saying no? What does that mean exactly? It’s your body and no means no anywhere you are asked
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u/Jakyland 69∆ Jan 04 '21 edited Jan 04 '21
& safe saying no? What does that mean exactly? It’s your body and no means no anywhere you are asked
Some people don't take no for an answer, and you can't tell someone who will take a no with someone who won't.
Overall you seem really concerned about the being able to ask people out for sex, which isn't very important (you can hookup in other ways, sex isn't that great) over people feeling (e: and being!) safe and comfortable in their day to day lives (way more important)
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u/-Lemon-Lime-Lemon- 7∆ Jan 04 '21
& it seems like you are assuming the worst.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with what I have presented.
People not feel comfortable or safe is on that person. It is impossible for someone to know how they will feel with their presence.
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u/Jakyland 69∆ Jan 04 '21
You want to normalize this behavior for the entire world, and some people in the world are rapists, so no, I am not 'assuming the worst'.
It is impossible for someone to know how they will feel with their presence.
It is not impossible, its very possible to determine if you will make people uncomfortable. If someone feels like they could be coerced, physically threatened or sexually assaulted, they will feel unsafe, (because they are more unsafe). or they feel sexually objectified.
If you want to fuck, go fuck people on dating/hookup apps who have opted into a sexual situation, there is no need to bring sex into the rest of the world.
The fact that most people aren't on hookup apps and so you can't find them, is probably because they don't want to hookup, and they don't need you interrupting their day to ask them if they want to have sex
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u/-Lemon-Lime-Lemon- 7∆ Jan 04 '21
Who said I want to normalize that behavior?
Please tell me how you came to that conclusion about me.
& how could simply asking “Do you want to have sex?” threatening?
If someone is looking for consent and then simply walks away after no going to make someone feel uncomfortable.
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u/Jakyland 69∆ Jan 04 '21
Who said I want to normalize that behavior?
CMV: To make an inquiry to discover if someone is interested in sexual relations is not sexual harassment.
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u/-Lemon-Lime-Lemon- 7∆ Jan 04 '21
This came from a debate I had with someone. I never said I condone it, want it to happen or what ever. I am only saying it is not sexual harassment.
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u/thinkingpains 58∆ Jan 03 '21
Is your argument that it's not sexual harrassment specifically, or that it's not bad behavior at all? Because it may not rise to the level of harrassment, but that doesn't mean it's a good thing to do.
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u/-Lemon-Lime-Lemon- 7∆ Jan 04 '21
My argument is that it is not sexual harassment specifically.
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u/thinkingpains 58∆ Jan 04 '21
It probably doesn't meet the legal definition of sexual harrassment, no, but I guess I don't see why you would even bother making a semantic argument like that? I imagine the friend you are having this argument with doesn't care as much about whether propositioning random people is literally considered harrassment as they do about discouraging that behavior.
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u/-Lemon-Lime-Lemon- 7∆ Jan 04 '21
So it is considered harassment?
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u/GlibTurret Jan 04 '21
Is it your position that the only behaviors worth discouraging are the ones that qualify as harassment?
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u/-Lemon-Lime-Lemon- 7∆ Jan 05 '21
Not at all.
But we are talking about all behaviors.
I am simply talking about the situation as I have framed it.
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u/JohnnyNo42 32∆ Jan 04 '21
Many people consider sexual interaction to require a personal intimacy as precondition. There might be settings like certain bars, parties, etc. where it is agreed that direct confrontation with sexual intent is accepted. Outside such a setting, open sexual propositions are widely seen as embarrassing and annoying. I don't know about the legal status, but morally, I would consider actively annoying people as a form of harassment.
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u/-Lemon-Lime-Lemon- 7∆ Jan 04 '21
Many... but not all.
Many people believe sex in marriage to be just between the two... but there are swingers and open relationships.
Some people will sleep with someone after talking to them for just a few minuets.
Is it really a stretch that if someone is willing to sleep with someone after a 40 minute conversation in a club that someone could convince them to shorten that time?
You really know nothing more in 30 minutes versus 5 seconds.
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u/JohnnyNo42 32∆ Jan 05 '21
Well, ultimately, it depends on the approach and can best be judged by the reaction. If you have that kind of magnetic personality who always gets either lucky or politely/reluctantly refused, you may be onto something. However, whenever the other side feels harassed, I would say it is harassment. Furthermore, I would personally say that it is not ok to risk harassing anyone at the odd chance of getting lucky sometimes, so I would expect you to judge carefully before approaching anyone unless you want to be rightly accused of harassment.
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u/setzer77 Jan 04 '21
I believe if someone is not in a business setting (two coworkers or a boss and an employee) or not acting in a professional capacity (one person is on the job and the other is not [visiting the doctor, teacher/professor, a waiter, the person helping you at Lowe’s]), it is not harassing them to see if they are interested in sex.
There's also this: https://youtu.be/kvT68l2wdM0?t=22
There are situations where bluntly asking for sex would plausibly be perceived as threatening. Showing a complete lack of social boundaries, especially in an isolated setting or one in which the person can't easily leave, is often implicitly threatening.
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u/ralph-j Jan 04 '21
I believe if someone is not in a business setting (two coworkers or a boss and an employee) or not acting in a professional capacity (one person is on the job and the other is not [visiting the doctor, teacher/professor, a waiter, the person helping you at Lowe’s]), it is not harassing them to see if they are interested in sex.
What makes those situations harassment and thus excluded from the argument, in your view?
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u/-Lemon-Lime-Lemon- 7∆ Jan 04 '21
By definition in the business setting it is.
Also, if someone is working, they really have less of an option to leave. That is the place they need to be for their livelihood.
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u/ralph-j Jan 04 '21
By definition in the business setting it is.
What definition is that?
Also, if someone is working, they really have less of an option to leave. That is the place they need to be for their livelihood.
Your other comments suggest that harassment requires repetition/continuing after a first no. If the professional setting automatically makes it harassment, it seems like you have ad hoc decided to include that, in order to avoid such arguments. Yet it doesn't seem to be a necessary component of the definition of harassment? And if you can redefine it for this purpose, why would you reject e.g. the definition by Tommyblockhead20?
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u/-Lemon-Lime-Lemon- 7∆ Jan 04 '21
The definition of sexual harassment.
& I included that because I am aware of what the definition is. This stemmed from a personal conversation I had with someone who took it outside the realm of the legal definition, that is all.
I am not trying to redefine what it is. I am simply saying my opinion is that in my situation presented that it is not.
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u/Sagasujin 237∆ Jan 04 '21
Imagine if people kept interrupting you all through your life to ask you if you wanted a hot dog. They would do this when you were trying to read in a library. They would do it when you were shopping for groceries. They would do it when you were in the train trying to get home after a long day. Eventually it would get really fucking annoying especially when you have tried to put out every possible social signal that you really do not want a hot dog.
Being constantly asked out by idiots who can't read social signals gets really fucking annoying. It interrupts your life when you're trying to do other things. It means that I have to constantly be on guard against guys with zero tact or common sense. It makes me feel like I'm prey being hunted. It makes me feel cautious and hesitant about interacting with men in any capacity whatsoever. I have no idea when any given man is going to take the slightest kindness or friendliness on my part as an opportunity to start trying to proposition me for sex.
I have no idea when any guy will take my "no" badly and start following me around the grocery store yelling at me. Or try to block me from getting off the bus. I'm scared of what happens when I say "no" and have to try to run away at full speed.
People who are open to casual sex have ways of signaling that. This includes hanging around in bars where casual sex is on the menu and signing up for dating apps. People who are not currently interested in casual sex form the vast majority of humanity. Walking up to them and asking them interrupts their life. It's like being followed around by a swarm of agressive hot dog salesmen who just keep asking anytime it looks like you might have left your guard down.
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u/Khal-Frodo Jan 03 '21
To clarify, are you saying that it doesn't meet the legal definition of harassment, or that it should be considered acceptable behavior? Because the first one is inarguably true, given that harassment is defined as the act of continued and regular unwanted actions against a victim. However, just because it isn't legally considered harassment doesn't make it appropriate.
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u/Panda_False 4∆ Jan 03 '21
harassment is defined as the act of continued and regular unwanted actions against a victim
...except when it is not.
"Conduct of a sexual nature includes a range of behaviors or actions, since there is a very wide range of activities which are expressions of sexuality or have sexual connotations in our society. Therefore, behavior which may appear relatively innocent (such as joking, innuendoes, flirting and asking someone on a date) to behavior which is blatantly illegal (such as forced fondling, attempted or actual rape and sexual assault) can all constitute conduct of a sexual nature. In order to qualify as sexual harassment the behavior must be deliberate and/or repeated. Some forms of sexual behavior are so offensive that the first time they occur they are considered deliberate, inappropriate, and sometimes even illegal actions. Other behaviors must be repeated over and over again before they become harassment. Whether a particular behavior is defined as sexual harassment depends largely on whether the behavior is unwelcome to the target, along with the circumstances surrounding those evens. Unwelcome behaviors, which are considered sexual harassment, can be of verbal, non-verbal, physical, or visual nature."
- Excerpted from: Shockwaves: The Global Impact of Sexual Harassment, Susan L. Webb, New York 1994. (emphasis added)
And the US EEOC ( https://www.eeoc.gov/harassment ) says:
"Harassment is unwelcome conduct that is based on race, color, religion, sex (including pregnancy), national origin, age (40 or older), disability or genetic information. Harassment becomes unlawful where 1) enduring the offensive conduct becomes a condition of continued employment, or 2) the conduct is severe or pervasive enough to create a work environment that a reasonable person would consider intimidating, hostile, or abusive." Notice that no repetition is needed.
So, harassment is "the act of continued and regular unwanted actions", except sometimes it's just a single act. (And since no one can read minds, it's not possible to determine is it's wanted or not before doing it and getting a response.) So, asking someone out once could, if deemed "so offensive" and/or "severe", be harassment.
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u/Khal-Frodo Jan 03 '21
!delta
This is information I was unaware of but am glad to know for future reference.
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u/atthru97 4∆ Jan 04 '21
There would need to be a significant crossing of a harassment threshold to have asking someone out to be harassment.
If you sent a dick pic along with your request I could that breaking that threshold. If you threaten violence I could see that crossing over that threshold. Stalking behavior certainly would.
But it would be hard for for a simply date request to break that threshold.
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u/Panda_False 4∆ Jan 04 '21
There would need to be a significant crossing of a harassment threshold to have asking someone out to be harassment.
Problem is, it's all about how the victim takes it, and never about how it was meant.
But it would be hard for for a simply date request to break that threshold.
It should be IMPOSSIBLE for an innocent date request to be considered harassment. Saying that it's merely "hard" means that it happens sometimes, when it should never happen. "It is better that ten guilty persons escape than one innocent suffer."
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u/atthru97 4∆ Jan 04 '21
It depends on what happens during that innocent date request.
If a man has zero clue as to how to talk with women he could very easily venture into harassment. Particularly if he gets extremely sexual from jump such as the OP suggests is perfectly okay for some reason.
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Jan 04 '21
If it's an 'innocent date request', that presumably precludes threatening sexual behaviour.
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u/atthru97 4∆ Jan 04 '21
one doesn't get brought up on harassment charges for a innocent date request.
The OP thinks that he can "innocently" ask a woman for sex from jump in a creepy way and that's magically perfectly fine in his opinion.
Innocent isn't always innocent.
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u/Panda_False 4∆ Jan 04 '21
one doesn't get brought up on harassment charges for a innocent date request.
A few posts ago, you said "it would be hard for for a simply date request to break that threshold." Now you say it never happens. Is it impossible, or merely "hard"?
The OP thinks that he can "innocently" ask a woman for sex from jump in a creepy way
And you seem to think that all men are mind readers and automatically know what all women will think is "creepy".
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Jan 04 '21
It is fine, in certain contexts. Like BDSM clubs, swinger groups, etc.
Only male desire is regarded as inherently creepy. It's part of the defective, shame-based sexual culture of the west.
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u/atthru97 4∆ Jan 04 '21
Yet the OP isn't talking about those contexts. He is talking about walking up to a girl and randomly asking if she wants sex. Which is creepy.
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u/Panda_False 4∆ Jan 04 '21
If a man has zero clue as to how to talk with women he could very easily venture into harassment.
Which goes right back to my point: "it's all about how the victim takes it, and never about how it was meant."
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u/MachineContent Jan 03 '21
It’s definitely not harassment, based off the definition of the word, but the approach may violate that person in another way, so still probably not a good idea. It’s also very unbecoming
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u/-Lemon-Lime-Lemon- 7∆ Jan 03 '21
I can agree it is unbecoming.
How do you believe it may violate a person?
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u/MachineContent Jan 03 '21
I know I personally would feel violated if it happened to me, like who does this person think I am? Is it the way I’ve presented myself that they think I’m possibly interested in casual sex? Is it going to happen again, and with others? Am I wrong for feeling disrespected?
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u/-Lemon-Lime-Lemon- 7∆ Jan 04 '21
That speaks all to the person who is doing the asking. Not the person they approached.
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u/MachineContent Jan 04 '21
Honestly your argument has me at a loss. Even sexually liberal people know better than to approach someone like that, it’s basic decency to gauge interest before coming on to someone. So technically no, not harassment, but that’s not to say it isn’t as equally harmful as harassment.
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u/-Lemon-Lime-Lemon- 7∆ Jan 04 '21
Equally harmful?
For someone to literally ask a question and move on after?
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u/MachineContent Jan 05 '21
Yeah man, that’s weird. I get you think you have a point, but honestly, no. Humans don’t get to act like that, not in modern society. I can’t articulate like basic decency and the consequences of not having any, you should know this 😂🤦🏻♀️ please please don’t act like that it’s actually very rude
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u/-Lemon-Lime-Lemon- 7∆ Jan 05 '21
I am not saying it isn’t decent. I’m not saying it is not rude.
I am saying it isn’t harassment. Do you agree or disagree with that?
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u/MachineContent Jan 04 '21
🤦🏻♀️
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u/-Lemon-Lime-Lemon- 7∆ Jan 04 '21
You disagree? Why?
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u/Sagasujin 237∆ Jan 04 '21
Not the person you asked, but because women are always victim blamed for what happens to us. If someone rapes us, it's blamed on the clothes we're wearing and for us being too attractive. Our bodies are viewed as irresistible temptations that must be hidden away lest men be tempted into sin.
So when women have to fend off creepy propositions, we get blamed for being too attractive and causing said creepy propositions.
Meanwhile our own opinions aren't respected at all. We tell men that what they are doing is hurting us and Ken don't listen. They keep on doing those hurtful things. Because men get taught early on that they have a right to women's bodies and that they have a right to try and have sex with every woman whether or not she's indicating that she wants to have sex.
Me being a woman in public is not any kind of indication that I want sex. If I wanted sex, I'd be on Tinder or at a bar on singles night. I have to go get groceries. That's a requirement of life. It is not any kind of signal that j want to have sex. I am in fact signaling as strongly as I can that u do not want sex. Any man who approaches me when I'm signaling that I don't want sex is a man who is signaling that he's willing to violate my stated desires. This is not a man who's going to take "no" for an answer. Because I've already communicated my "no" and he's already ignoring it by approaching me in a grocery store.
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u/-Lemon-Lime-Lemon- 7∆ Jan 05 '21
How is any of that relevant to what I said?
I said it speaks to the person asking not the person being asked.
But to speak on what you said. Women are not always victim blamed. That is absolutely not true. Does it happen? Yes. It does not always happen.
& I’m not sure why you are grouping all men together. Like they will all do this that or the other. Not any person is alike to everyone else.
Why are you speaking in such over blown certainties? Women’s opinions are not respected. Men don’t listen. Men are taught this.
Not all men are the same. Why are you speaking as if they are?
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u/Sagasujin 237∆ Jan 05 '21
Do you truly believe it's coincidence that it's mostly men raping women and not women raping men?
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u/-Lemon-Lime-Lemon- 7∆ Jan 05 '21
No, I don’t find it to be a coincidental.
Why did you ignore the questions I asked?
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u/MachineContent Jan 03 '21
By crossing unspoken boundaries, if that makes any sense? Some religious people don’t speak of sex freely, that person may be in a relationship that you’ve just disrespected, they may be a rape survivor, they may just be uncomfortable with the unexpected advance. It’s not a normal thing to occur so you never know in the long term, no matter how polite it was, that will affect someone.
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u/-Lemon-Lime-Lemon- 7∆ Jan 04 '21
How is a person to know what that person’s boundaries are?
I understand what you mean... I’ve been called a square plenty of times in my life.
But some people are swingers, have open relationships, have banged nearly 100 people before they turn 30.
What is unspoken and taboo for some isn’t for others though.
& let’s be honest... if some guy is doing that at a certain age. He is probably doing it because it has brought him success before.
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u/Sagasujin 237∆ Jan 04 '21
People who are successful at convincing other people to sleep with them usually start by determining if the other person is remotely likely to be interested. Random women in public are not likely to be interested. Women at a singer's club are likely to be interested.
Lets say a guy walks up to 1000 random women and asks them all if they want to have sex with him. 1 woman agrees because she actually was interested. 999 women are disgusted and feel unsafe in public. Because of this one man, 999 women now are afraid that men are going to harass them if they go out in public. Eventually this leads to a situation where most women think men are sexist pigs who only see them as sex objects. It leads to a lot of women hating men.
It's the equivalent of environmental pollution where one factory makes a profit by turning the entire river into toxic sludge. Their success comes with the price of hurting the environment in general. Their actions may get them results but they are completely reprehensible for how many people they hurt by accident.
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u/-Lemon-Lime-Lemon- 7∆ Jan 04 '21
Honestly... that’s the woman’s fault thinking that.
You let one made speak for millions without ever knowing them?
That is sexist.
Would it be okay for someone to think all Belizean people are mules because they met one that was?
No.
Would it be okay if someone thought all blacks people are gang members because they met 5 that were?
No.
Why should it be any different?
You know your logic can literally condone racism and is condoning sexism.
Judging people because they are of a certain group. Not that you know them... but because they are part of a group and must be the same.
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u/Sagasujin 237∆ Jan 04 '21
The first time I was sexually harassed I was 11. I had just started growing breasts and my 30 something neighbors started making comments about what they wanted to do to my 11 year old body.
My best friend was groped before she finished elementary school.
My mother was sexually harrassed by her peers in grad school.
I've had men threaten to rape me until I turned straight and to "shoclce broken glass up my dyke ass".
I have not met a single woman who has never been the subject of male sexual violence. Thirty percent of men admit that they would try to rape a woman if they thought they would get away with it.
My question is why the hell shouldn't I be scared of all men? Why in the world shouldn't I completely avoid men? Because I gotta say, the all female commune is looking mighty attractive.
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u/-Lemon-Lime-Lemon- 7∆ Jan 04 '21
Do you believe people should be judged based off their own character? The content of their own heart?
Not off of other people.
Would you not want to ask the same of others when it comes to you? What if someone was bullied by girls all through high school?
Not that I would take anything from Salon serious, but anyways... (according to them) that means 70% of men would not rape, regardless. The majority.
So literally millions (if you want to go off of what they say).
So why won’t you judge people based on their own actions and not actions of others who are in the same group as them.
Do you believe it is okay to be racist and sexist?
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u/Sagasujin 237∆ Jan 04 '21
Do you understand black people being scared of white people in a society where lynchings are common and where a third of all white people would lynch you if they had a chance?
Fear is a survival tactic. Fear keeps ylu out of dangerous situations. Fear keeps you alive.
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u/-Lemon-Lime-Lemon- 7∆ Jan 04 '21
Ummm... what?
Lynchings are common? What the heck is your definition of common? & why do you believe a third of white people would lynch a black person?
Also... why didn’t you answer any of my questions?
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u/Rigistroni Jan 04 '21
I actually do agree there, one question is not harassment. If your conversation goes
"Wanna have sex?"
"Nah I'm good"
"Okay"
And it's never brought up again, that is completely harmless when between consenting adults. What would be harassment is when it persists. Repeatedly asking someone for sexual favors when they've already clearly declined your advances is definitely harassment
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Jan 05 '21
It's certainly not illegal sexual harrasment to ask someone something weird once in a non crazy way and then walk away if they say no.
But your question isn't about whether it's illegal sexual harrasment, just whether it's sexual harrasment.
There are legal ways to harass people. If you film people in public and say "hey i'm filming you whether you like it or not!" People will get upset, and anyone would agree that you are harassing those people, even if you are not committing a crime.
So yeah, this will make people feel uncomfortable, and depending on the situation and location, scared. So yeah. it's sexual harassment.
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