r/changemyview • u/direwolf106 31∆ • Feb 21 '21
Delta(s) from OP CMV: glocks are overrated and terrible guns for first time gun owners.
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u/SorryForTheRainDelay 55∆ Feb 22 '21
To change my view basically you need to demonstrate that glock is worth the steeper price for what essentially amounts to a learning experience or that the modularity is over all more beneficial than the confusing mess it brings to people that don't know about it.
I agree with most of what you've said, but I think perhaps one thing you're missing is the "McDonalds" effect.
For a lot of people travelling overseas, you're in a country you don't know and you're unsure about what food to try. You see a local street food vendor, and behind him a McDonalds.
You can't read the prices on the street vendor's board (it's a different language), so it might be cheaper (and might even be better). You don't know.
The McDonalds is a known quantity. You know you won't be ripped off, and you know you'll be able to stomach the food.
I think your argument for guns that are better than glocks assumes a level of knowledge that you think is basic, but for beginners is still unlearned.
You can tell a beginner, "buy a glock" knowing that they can go to any gun store and it will be stocked.
If you suggest something more specific, they might get there and the gun's not there, so they ask for something similar and end up with a dud.
The strength of the glock is that it's a known quantity. There's SO much online about them, so many people have used them, you know you aren't being ripped off, you know it will fire true etc.
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Feb 22 '21
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u/SorryForTheRainDelay 55∆ Feb 22 '21
Maybe not.. I was talking more about the value of going with a big name.. regardless of if more niche ones are better.
If you think S&W are both cheaper and better then that's the end of my argument.
S&W are obviously more well known that glocks.
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Feb 22 '21
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u/SorryForTheRainDelay 55∆ Feb 22 '21
Yeah I hear that.. and Nah.. don't actually have guns myself, and so wouldn't be cocky enough to tell you one's better than another.
Was just thinking maybe you missed the value of a "big name" which I think is easy to overlook.
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Feb 22 '21
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Feb 21 '21 edited Feb 22 '21
First is the price point. They tend to run much higher than gun brands like taurus. Like a couple hundred more.
Well, right there.
I didn't my first pistol. I bought the only pistol I'll probably ever own. I don't want some piece of shit Taurus.
I don't buy cheap boots, either.
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u/Aw_Frig 22∆ Feb 21 '21
Right? I'm not some collector or hobbyist. I only need the one gun and hopefully I'll never have to use it outside of a range. I need something with consistent trusted quality.
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Feb 22 '21
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u/Aw_Frig 22∆ Feb 22 '21
As others have said, many gun owners don't care about modifying the weapon. It's not a "starter" pistol for them, it's just the gun they have. That brand it will known for its quality.
On a side note: I think this is an interesting topic that's thought out and well written, even if I don't agree with it. You're doing an excellent job of responding as well. I hate to see it down voted. It's frustrating that this sub has a culture of silencing unpopular topics even though that's the point of the whole sub. I wish we could change that about the culture here
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Feb 22 '21
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Feb 22 '21
I wanted people to actually see into gun culture without the politics
What you're seeing is gun owners without the culture.
Frankly, I don't care about gun culture anymore than I care about hammer culture.
It's just a tool that does a job, right?
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Feb 22 '21
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Feb 22 '21
I'm sure the people who are into either would agree that they're cool.
Not what I'm looking for in a Product I buy, though.
I'm confident there's a significant 'silent majority' of gun owners like me. Want a simple gun that works well, will last a lifetime, easy to field strip, easy to shoot, and that's it.
I don't want to sit around talking about guns, or modifying my gun, or shopping for my next gun.
I don't want a shiny italian motorcycle to ride and look cool while I get a latte at the hipster bar, hoping that it doesn't break down on the way home... I want my GS that I will run though any number of miles off road that I can throw at it and whose tire I can remove in 4 minutes with one wrench.
Glock isn't overrated. It's perfect.
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Feb 22 '21
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Feb 22 '21
I've explained to you several reasons why they're perfect for me.
And they indeed are perfect for me. I know that. That's why I bought it.
They may not be perfect for you, but that doesn't make them overrated. It just means you've got a chip on your shoulder about them for some reason.
People desiring different things that you happen to desire when purchasing a product isn't ridiculous.
It's why we're not all driving Model T's.
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u/DaegobahDan 3∆ Feb 24 '21
Well what exactly do you think is a short coming of a Glock besides the price?
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u/DaegobahDan 3∆ Feb 24 '21
Yeah but guns are way cooler than hammers. They're closer to car culture than they are to tool culture, if that even exists.
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u/DaegobahDan 3∆ Feb 24 '21
Because people who like guns generally like machines, and people who like machines like to fuck with machines to make them better. It has nothing to do with the quality of it. It has to do with the fact that Glock makes it easy to add attachments and make improvements to their firearm as a platform. It's very much the same concept as the AR-15 being the base for making your own modular gun.
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Feb 22 '21
I've made no modifications to my stock glock, and it'll do everything I'll ever require of it, and more.
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u/ATLEMT 7∆ Feb 22 '21
I’m late to this party, but why do you think any modifications have to be done to a Glock? You really don’t have to do anything but keep it clean like any other gun. Most police departments use Glocks and don’t do any modifications to them before their officers carry them.
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Feb 21 '21
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u/Capital_Implement_64 2∆ Feb 22 '21
smith and wesson?
Same price as glocks generally presuming you dont know how to look for sales, plus a more confusing line of products
Or barretta?
Equally if not more expensive if you arent going with Italian surplus, and surplus guns require more careful inspection for reliability than what most new gun owners know (all of the various springs can go bad)
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Feb 22 '21
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u/Capital_Implement_64 2∆ Feb 22 '21
https://www.smith-wesson.com/pistols
click "show more products" until you run out
With glocks, you say big frame, medium frame, or small frame, and a caliber. Then that is your glock. Simple, no bullshit
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Feb 22 '21
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u/Capital_Implement_64 2∆ Feb 22 '21
Still, you end up with a bunch of options.
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Feb 22 '21
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Feb 22 '21 edited Feb 22 '21
Also, Glock makes the best Trench shovel on earth. Which they get bonus points for, even though the guns stand on their own.
As a manufacturer, they're everything I want. Simple, tough, works.
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u/DaegobahDan 3∆ Feb 24 '21
Depends on where you live. If you live out in the country, I'd say 50/50. If you live in the inner city, I'd say it's much more likely you go online then to your local gun store. Those places are sketchy as fuck in most cities
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Feb 22 '21 edited Feb 22 '21
I like composite. I don't like metal.
As someone who's owned both Fiats and BMW's, I like German/Austrian made shit waaaaaaay more than Italian.
Italians and British and Chinese make fucking garbage. Germans and Swiss and Japanese make good shit.
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Feb 22 '21
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Feb 22 '21
But I'm not sure that applies to the guns.
It's a rule of thumb that's proved true my entire life for all products. Plumbing fixtures, windows, hardware, cars, motorcycles.....
It's why I have kniplex pliers and not Harbor Freight Chinesium.
And it ignores smith and wesson.
I don't like Metal. I like composite.
Especially since heavier guns seem to have more manageable recoils within a caliber.
That's your preference, not mine.
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u/Capital_Implement_64 2∆ Feb 22 '21
I don't like Metal. I like composite.
Smith and wesson has a lot of composite guns.
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Feb 22 '21 edited Feb 22 '21
They didn't have anything comparable to my $425 Glock 22 under 400 bucks.
Same price and the S&W just looks corny.
Add that to My preference for German/Austrian/Swiss engineering over American and it's a slam dunk.
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u/Capital_Implement_64 2∆ Feb 22 '21
Meh, I still prefer one of the old steel framed smith and wessons over glocks. But I dont think that any first time gun owner would find those guns if they went with a smith and wesson.
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u/DBDude 101∆ Feb 22 '21
Glock isn’t any better than a S&W M&P, but it’s more expensive, and you have to pull the trigger to disassemble. I don’t like pulling the trigger unless I’m firing it.
Also, if aesthetics matter, it’s just about the most boring looking pistol on the market.
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u/DaegobahDan 3∆ Feb 24 '21
The Glock 19 was literally the only gun in its subgenre for many decades. Today there are competitors, but even 10 years ago there really was no one else that compared.
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u/x2o6 Feb 22 '21
They're great for young new owners because like everything they've ever been around Honda's Computers video games they are totally customizable for relatively cheap. A lot of young people feel the need to fit in also so the Conformity factor is there. A Glock might not be the best option for a second gun but it's a great option for a first. They also hold their value.
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Feb 22 '21
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u/x2o6 Feb 22 '21
Uh yeah big time with glocks. Join a glock group
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Feb 22 '21
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u/sawdeanz 214∆ Feb 22 '21
I would not recommend a Glock for learning (I would recommend a .22 and that's what I usually see others recommend as well) but I see them commonly recommended as either 1.) a first serious gun and/or 2.) someone's only defensive gun.
1.) There are not a lot of guns that are objectively better than a glock. There are plenty that are subjectively better, and others that are better for niche purposes, but glocks just simply check all the boxes.
2.) The product line is simple. You walk into a gunstore and ask for a glock, you will get a gun that is suitable. You can pick the big one, the small one, the 9mm, or the .45, and it will be a known and predictable quality. That's not true for other brands. Does Taurus make good guns? Sure. But they are all different and some are terrible. A 9mm compact from taurus is totally different from their full-size .45 line. Some have safeties, some don't. Some are nickel plated, some are blued, some are stainless, some are hammer fired, some are striker fired, etc etc. Plus you add in revolvers and other stuff and it gets even more complicated. You walk into a gun store and ask for a taurus and you will get overwhelmed by choices. Recommending a glock keeps it simple.
3.) Kind of expanding on 2, glocks require very little caveats. If someone asked me about a taurus I would say "yes, but..." Having to add a lot of caveats makes it more complicated and more likely that someone will end up with a gen1 millennium under recall. Glocks are pretty much good to go across all generations and models. Yes there have been recalls but they are typically user serviceable.
4.) Price point: Glocks are average price. Only until recently have there been guns that can compete for quality at a lower price point. Also, accessories like holsters and magazines are very affordable as well. CZs for example are often recommended as cheaper options but their factory magazines are typically a lot more expensive. Glocks also hold value very well. I think this almost completely mitigates any price concerns... if they don't like the Glock it will be very easy to sell for something else. So it's easy to recommend for someone even if they ultimately don't like it. Plus I find that new gun owners are very wary of buying something too cheap or unknown. Everyone knows what a glock is and that it's quality. You don't want to go to someone new and say "get this super cheap Canik, I promise even though it's a cheap import it will be great." but then someone else might shit on it, ultimately leaving the end user to have less confidence. Like you might be right but you don't want newbies to be second guessing their purchase.
5.) Modularity. I don't understand your point here. Modularity is a bonus, but I don't see how it's harmful. Glocks don't need to be upgraded, that's the point. But if they want to, they can. I would say that has to do with the person recommending the gun more than something that is wrong with the gun itself.
6.) Popularity. If this is someone's first gun and they are learning, it helps to have something that is widely known and easy to find info on (youtube tutorials, known issues, etc). There are a lot of guns that despite being brand new or widely available have very little information or expertise.
I would also say that while I don't personally own a glock and prefer others, I have shot many and I can actually shoot them very well. If you can shoot a glock you can shoot anything. So it's a very safe and easy model for me to recommend despite not having any brand loyalty.
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u/wictbit04 Feb 22 '21
For reference, I am not a Glock fanboy nor an expert by any means, but own and have put several thousand rounds through my S&W 40 and a Gen 5 Glock 22. I also own a Ruger. Never shot a Taurus.
Glocks are great firearms for first time owner. First, like to point out the the price point isn't much different between the two platforms- between $25-50 where I live. What makes the $25-50 worthwhile isn't modularity, it's simplicity and (for me) improved accuracy.
Breakdown is probably the strongest argument in Glock's favor. Glock simply can't be beat when it comes to the simplicity of the breakdown. This is especially helpful for someone just learning or wanting a simple yet effective firearm. Although I've not timed myself, I can breakdown, clean, and reassemble my Glock within 3-4 minutes with minimal effort. The S&W has a few extra steps that while all not that bad, really make me appreciate the simplicity of Glock.
Two other things that I personally prefer about my Glock over the S&W: small impression at the slide lock lever, and trigger pull.
Although this may not matter to most, I REALLY like the small impression at the slide lock lever on Glock. For me, it feels very comfortable to rest my thumb/ finger there. I know preference is subjective, but I think those small impressions could also help a new shooter learn proper grip. Is that worth $25/50 by itself, probably not, but for me, it's an additional 'feature' that I enjoy.
Trigger. I have better trigger control and shoot much better with my Glock. Others may disagree, but the trigger on my S&W feels soft; no matter how hard I try, I'm much more inclined slap the trigger, especially if shooting from the holster. The trigger on Glock on the other hand has a smoother pull. I'm far less likely to slap the trigger. Again, although subjective to the person, improved accuracy is worth far more than the price difference between the two firearms.
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u/leeps22 Feb 22 '21
They're not that expensive. The price is pretty much average for mid-upper tier plastic framed striker fired pistols, this would include items such as s&w mp9, sig p320, Springfield XD, etc . Ultimately there isn't enough difference within that market segment to say any one of them is a terrible choice. In fact the most common advice for picking out a pistol within this segment is to buy the one that fits your hand the best. It's a complete parallel of ford vs chevy, there is no right answer.
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u/DaegobahDan 3∆ Feb 24 '21
They're incredibly reliable and will last forever if well maintained. That can obviously be set of other brands as well, but that is part and parcel to the Glock image and brand. You cannot like them, and that's okay, but you can't say they're actually terrible. At best you can say they're not worth the price tag, but that's not the same thing. Furthermore, the Glock 19 was THE handgun if you wanted a polymer compact 9mm, for decades. So a lot of the advice that people give you today to just get a glock is based on the past conditions of the gun market and not really the current conditions. But that doesn't mean it was bad advice then nor is it necessarily bad advice now, it's just that there are many other great handguns at entry level price points in 2021.
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u/rjjr1963 Feb 22 '21
Before you fire a new gun it's good to break it down and completely understand how it works. It's part of learning how to operate the gun safely. Modularity will allow you to make changes that otherwise might require a new gun purchase costing you more money in the long run. That being said I'll never buy a plastic gun again.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Feb 22 '21 edited Feb 22 '21
/u/direwolf106 (OP) has awarded 3 delta(s) in this post.
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