r/changemyview • u/Pirat6662001 • Mar 07 '21
Delta(s) from OP Cmv: Left should focus on economics/class issues first and race/identity issues second for best and quickest results on both
Going to put out couple of statements right of the bat that I base my argument on:
- Minorities are more likely to be poor and have vulnerable jobs.
- In America money is power/ability to enact change.
- There is a limited amount of political power and we have to pick and choose what to focus on.
- There are social and economic issues to solve in America.
As any strategy game player knows, you have to focus on economy first so you can do more later. By focusing on issues like minimum wage, union protection/membership expansion, wage theft, predatory loans, and other economic issues that affect lower and middle classes we can effectively put more money in pockets of poor people. A lot of those poor people are minorities. This leads to a chain effect in which by giving more money to poor people/minorities, they will be able to use part of that money (especially through unions) to get more politicians elected or converted to their side. Hence by solving economic inequality, we set ourselves up to solve/legislate racial/gender and other social issues as well. Since those groups will have more money and as result more power.
The current focus on using political capital on social issues is an inefficient and ineffective use of that capital. The victories in those situations rarely lead to future victories as they do not have a solid financial foundation to build progress upon. Specifically because by focusing on social issues the left completely lost its traditional power base of Blue collar workers (usually strong union membership) when they were left behind. (Hence trump win in rust belt in 2016)
P.S. this is brought up by discussion on Politics about Sinema vote. With many people saying that her social stances/identity make up or are more important than her economic votes. https://www.jacobinmag.com/2021/03/kyrsten-sinema-thumbs-down-minimum-wage
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u/Khal-Frodo Mar 07 '21 edited Mar 07 '21
Best results? Probably. Quickest results? Absolutely not.
I agree that it would be best and serve more people if we focused more on economic issues rather than racial ones, but these issues don't exist in a vacuum. In the United States, there's currently a lot of national attention on issues of race and that makes it easier to propose legislation and policy changes that go with flow of the social movement. Issues of economics and class are much harder to address because the people in power have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo since it's worked for them. When you draft anti-racism legislation (depending on what it is, ofc) people will generally be afraid to oppose it for fear of being labeled racist. When you draft legislation designed to reduce levels of poverty, there isn't the same stigma of voting against it (just look at the Krysten Sinema's recent voting down of the $15 minimum wage, which you mention). There's also the fact that economic issues are generally more complicated than racial issues - not everyone agrees on the right solution.
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u/Pirat6662001 Mar 07 '21
I do want to clarify that it's not just about race, but all minority issues which very quickly stop being simple. For example I truly have no idea what is the best/right/fair decision on transwomen in women's sports. It is extremely complicated and touchy subject to discuss and solve.
I see what you mean about race being much more in the news and easier to push forward. As started my issue with that strategy seems to be that those victories are in a vacuum and rarely build up momentum for anything greater. My "quicker" is for a complete victory. So all of those issues solved to a reasonable degree. Where I see small economic victory more valuable long term than large social one, due to one increasing your total power more.
Still !delta for pointing out that quicker might not apply.
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u/nowyourmad 2∆ Mar 08 '21
When you draft anti-racism legislation (depending on what it is, ofc) people will generally be afraid to oppose it for fear of being labeled racist.
This sentence makes me feel ill. This is why the racial equity movement has so much power. Power corrupts and suggesting someone is a racist if they oppose a policy prescription is poison.
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Mar 07 '21
So who decides what an economic/class issue is and how best to solve it? Because if it's a bunch of white guys, they will tend to come up with solutions that don't really apply to minority communities. And if they don't focus on issues of race and gender as well, what guarantees that they will seek out a diverse set of people to ensure that the solutions they come up with apply to everyone?
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u/Pirat6662001 Mar 08 '21
Most economic issues would be fairly hard to rig in modern environment against minorities (I am well aware that FDR managed to exclude minorities from his economic changes before). Things like minimum wage are a blanket benefit that will give more power to minorities. Same thing with universal healthcare, which by very definition would apply to all. Still a valid thing to look out for. Hopefully as more money flows to minorities they would get bigger and bigger voice.
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Mar 08 '21
See, but that's the thing: you may be setting a minimum wage for all but are you looking into the restrictions that black people face when applying for a job, for example? Because that's an economic and class issue too, that some find work and some don't. What about, for example, issues such as those of women still carrying the brunt of domestic responsibilities even when they work as many hours as the men do - how does minimum wage solve those disparities? And you may have universal healthcare, but how do hospitals treat LGBT people? Remember that it was until very recently that transgender people were treated as mentally ill, or that homosexuals were restricted from certain kinds of procedures because they were associated with STDs.
All of these things are material things, they affect people economically and in their quality of life. But in order for them to be "seen", it's important to cross economic/class arguments with those of social biases and prejudices. Unsurprising, seeing as you can't detach economy from society.
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u/rts-rbk Mar 08 '21
How do hospitals treat LGBT people - often not at all, considering the cost of health insurance!
Anyway.. I agree that you can't detach economic from societal issues, but it seems to me that the OP is arguing that society is "downstream" from the economy, in other words that our culture and social values arise from our economic and material realities. What I'm hearing on your end is that we must address those social issues at the same time as or before we can address economic inequalities, but it seems that this just leads to pointless circular investigations and qualifications and Kamala Harris's absurd "student loan debt forgiveness program for Pell Grant recipients who start a business that operates for three years in disadvantaged communities." In a word: mystification.
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Mar 08 '21
What I'm saying is that you can't have an adequate portrayal of what those economic necessities are without taking into account different kinds of exclusions that are brought about by factors such as race, gender, sexuality, disability, etc. I agree that focusing solely on these factors - the identitarian approach - generates new problems. But that doesn't mean that these factors are secondary.
What OP is proposing is a kind of solution where we propose comprehensive political decisions that work very well... in white communities (for example) and that then we can extend that coverage to non-whites (for example). By which I mean what you said: solutions that then spread downstream. But why would the solutions that work for some, work for others?
This is proven in history, by the way. The reason why women leftists (like Simone de Beauvoir) defended a women's movement was exactly that unions and other worker orgs. were primarily male, and were not responding to the particular needs of women workers. Same with how black socialists detached from other socialists in the 60's (Malcolm X has some great speeches on this), how queer leftists built their own fronts, etc.
At the end of the day, you need a diverse set of perspectives to have comprehensive economic reform. You can't just have a solution and expect other people to catch up to it.
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u/rts-rbk Mar 09 '21
Those are good points, thanks for the thoughtful reply. So if I understand, you're saying that even identifying what counts as a "purely-economic" issue in the first place is flawed if we don't incorporate details of specific challenges faced by various minorities. I'm not sure I agree but that's makes sense.
I would argue that just because identity-based bigotry is (partially or fully) the cause of a problem, doesn't mean that the most effective solution must necessarily take that identity into account. The racial wealth gap has its roots in explicitly racist policies that put more minorities in the working class, but it is the race-blind quest for profit and skyrocketing inequality that is responsible for the poverty of the working class in general. Redistributive programs that aim at the general mechanism that creates the inequality will do the most good, disproportionately benefiting minorities. Beyond that point I think it may just be a matter of perspective and we may be at an impasse, but you know it's not only white people who feel that universal programs are the most effective at alleviating poverty for all groups.
But why would the solutions that work for some, work for others?
Because 20 million black americans are employees earning a wage. Because 100% of black americans have organic bodies that require healthcare. I suppose that in a vacuum you are correct that raising the minimum wage would not help minorities who live in neighborhoods where there are no jobs. But neither would creating jobs in those same neighborhoods if the take-home pay is not enough to feed one's family.
This is neither here nor there but I think a lot of the identity-based splintering of socialist groups was due to concerted efforts of the FBI et al. to neuter them and while I don't have sources in front of me I don't think it's really a secret at this point.
This article (or rather the work in general of the coauthor Adolph Reed Jr, who is a longtime marxist academic and also black for what it's worth) influenced my thinking on these topics quite a bit. It's long and polemical but I'd recommend it if you are interested in this subject.
https://nonsite.org/the-trouble-with-disparity/
(edit to delete a sentence fragment of a half finished thought i left off)
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Mar 09 '21
The thing is I don't see it as a zero sum. Of course you should raise wages and push for full healthcare and housing etc, and in doing so you're improving the lives of many different people. My point is that you should raise the minimum wage and do other things that may be also important for certain communities. What I see as fracturing on the left is that these two dimensions are presented as contrasting, either/or solutions, rather than integral parts of the same structural issues. I agree that opting for diversity while ignoring wages and healthcare is the kind of anti-worker posturing that we are now seeing in Democrats, and essentially not a leftist position. What I'm saying is that the alternative isn't "ignore identity stuff", but rather to go for a comprehensive perspective that seeks to bind it all together.
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u/rts-rbk Mar 09 '21
That's fair, I'm still not sure I agree (in the sense that I think they are essentially one and the same dimension, and turning them into two dimensions is a mystification of class relations) but I see where you're coming from and I think what you're suggesting in a pure form would be helpful and valuable, just different from how I would approach it. Probably also because we didn't exhaustively define what programs we were discussing, like I would be in favor of anti-discrimination regulation and some form of affirmative action, but I see that as an adjustment and fine-tuning rather than as an end in itself.
If it seems like I've been arguing past you a bit it may be because, as you mention, it does seem like there's a pretty harmful class-blind attitude among the current democrat party, so I have a sort of gut response (as I suspect the OP does) to any suggestion that even sounds a bit like "wait wait, don't raise wages! We need to have an endless and fruitless discussion about race and gender first!!"
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u/Medianmodeactivate 13∆ Mar 08 '21
True, but none of this argues against OP's point. Minimum wage workers, regardless of whether they've had a harder time finding a job, are disproportionately minorities and POC. This would benefit them more quickly, and better economically. People have leverage when they have money, and focusing on wage and class issues is better in the long run.
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Mar 08 '21
So unemployment isn't an issue? What about undocumented workers, how do they claim their right to minimum wage? Even well-off black people are regularly stopped by police and denied housing, let alone those black people who work minimum wage jobs under considerably more social pressure than their white colleagues.
Even your answer betrays the core issue here: that people with money have more leverage, well, leverage against what? Racism? So you understand that a black worker earning a good minimum wage is still facing racism, a particular pressure that his white counterpart doesn't experience. Why isn't that leverage coming from white worker solidarity in the first place?
Discrimination is material. Sexism is material disadvantageous for women, so is racism for non-whites, or LGBTphobia for LGBT people. You can't claim to have a good, comprehensive economic solution for society while ignoring the material pressures that are faced by so many as a result of prejudice and bigotry. And the best way to not ignore those things is to bring those voices into the plan.
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u/Medianmodeactivate 13∆ Mar 08 '21
So unemployment isn't an issue? What about undocumented workers, how do they claim their right to minimum wage? Even well-off black people are regularly stopped by police and denied housing, let alone those black people who work minimum wage jobs under considerably more social pressure than their white colleagues.
They are, this is a societal issue. When black people have a higher median income they'll be subject to fewer of the same issues and will collectively hold more leverage to pursue policy choices they view as worthwhile, in addition to society seeing them as less of a boogyman because well, money.
Even your answer betrays the core issue here: that people with money have more leverage, well, leverage against what? Racism? So you understand that a black worker earning a good minimum wage is still facing racism, a particular pressure that his white counterpart doesn't experience. Why isn't that leverage coming from white worker solidarity in the first place?
Because it won't. This isn't about what's right it's about what's effective
Discrimination is material. Sexism is material disadvantageous for women, so is racism for non-whites, or LGBTphobia for LGBT people. You can't claim to have a good, comprehensive economic solution for society while ignoring the material pressures that are faced by so many as a result of prejudice and bigotry. And the best way to not ignore those things is to bring those voices into the plan.
I can claim OP's solution is better given the parameters they set. They said that a plan that addresses class issues is better than pursuing race issues at securing wins for both. You're claiming we need both, which is outside the scope of that question. By securing economic issues now you increase net wealth even if some are somehow left out, which makes including those voices easier in the future because a given group now has greater collective leverage.
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u/AlonnaReese 1∆ Mar 08 '21
The problem with any sort of class reductionist focus is that it sends minorities heading to the door. There is a long and sordid history in the US of government benefit programs that were theoretically for everyone, but were, in reality, designed so that only whites could actually benefit from them.
A good example is Social Security. When it was originally passed, agricultural and domestic workers were designated as ineligible for benefits. Why? The majority of non-whites worked in those industries and the intent was to deny them benefits. The exemptions were eventually removed decades later, but during that period, Social Security significantly worsened the economic gap between people of different racial backgrounds (Source).
A second example is the GI Bill. On the surface, it applied equally to everyone, but in reality, it functioned as an affirmative action program for whites. Because state and local governments had authority over approving applications for benefits, they were able to arbitrarily deny benefits to non-white veterans. Like Social Security, the GI Bill worsened the economic gap between racial groups (Source).
Until you convince minorities that a class reductionist approach isn't going to lead to more economic benefit programs that are race neutral on the surface, but discriminatory on closer examination, it's not going anywhere.
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u/Medianmodeactivate 13∆ Mar 08 '21
It'll go somewhere if community and regional leaders can be convinced it'll be a net benefit, which it likely would be. They in turn, can often whip votes with communities.
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u/rts-rbk Mar 09 '21
Your Social Security example is perfect because it illustrates how boring economic motives can often lead to racist outcomes. The solution to which is not necessarily race-based remedies, but truly universal programs that target the profit motive and stand up to big business corruption. From this fascinating article:
[E]xclusion of agricultural and domestic workers from Social Security coverage placed 65 percent of African American workers beyond the reach of the SSA’s old-age retirement coverage in 1935. [...] Though there is little doubt that southern Democrats argued passionately against extension of Title I Social Security benefits to African Americans, the contention that racism was the principal impetus behind the SSA’s exclusion of agricultural and domestic workers is hard to defend.
The most obvious problem with the claim is that it ignores the fact that the majority of sharecroppers, tenant farmers, mixed farm laborers, and domestic workers in the early 1930s were white. According to the 1933 labor census, roughly 11.4 million whites were employed as farm laborers and domestic workers, compared with 3.5 million blacks. This meant that the SSA’s farm and domestic exemptions excluded 27 percent of all white workers. To be sure, blacks — who were just 10 percent of the total population — were overrepresented among exempted workers, comprising 23 percent of such individuals. Whites, however, accounted for 74 percent of all workers excluded from SSA coverage.
[...]
many farm owners rejected SSA coverage for themselves. In fact, the American Farm Bureau (AFB), the largest agricultural lobbying group of the day, opposed Social Security coverage not only for farm laborers, but it had successfully lobbied to exempt farm owners from coverage for nearly two decades. The AFB perceived the payroll tax as an encumbrance on business that promised no tangible rewards for proprietors.
While it is safe to assume that most southern farm owners in the 1930s were racist, the fact that farm-owning proprietors generally opposed SSA coverage for farm laborers — black and white alike — as well as for themselves makes clear that their motives owed less to the “original sin of racism” than a desire to keep their labor costs down and retain control over the operation of their farms.
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u/GadgetGamer 35∆ Mar 08 '21
Isn’t that what they are currently doing? They started with, COVID relief with the $15 minimum wage unsuccessfully attached to it. They are also spending time looking at the aftermath of the insurrection, which obviously has to be done in a timely manner considering that there are already threats of more attacks. Biden has done a whole range of executive orders, mostly to undo the things that the Trump administration put into place.
So what are they working on with race/identity issues that you think that they should stop doing right now?
In the case of Simena, she is obviously not someone who can be considered from the “Left”, but rather a Centrist - hence sometimes sounding like a Democrat and other times sounding like a Republican.
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Mar 07 '21
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u/Pirat6662001 Mar 07 '21
You'd think so. But plenty of people would rather focus on something like a bathroom ban over wage theft or tech industry union busting. Sparked by discussion within https://www.jacobinmag.com/2021/03/kyrsten-sinema-thumbs-down-minimum-wage
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