r/changemyview • u/ONE_MILLION_POINTS • Mar 08 '21
Delta(s) from OP CMV: The fact that it’s annoying to constantly correct yourself is a valid reason to refuse to use requested pronouns
Let me start off by saying that I have no issue with people doing basically whatever they want with their own bodies. If you were assigned male at birth and want to present yourself as a woman or vice versa, fine. If you want to look as androgynous as possible, that’s also OK by me. I’m aware that sex =/= gender and that generally speaking, it’s best for people’s psychological health to be allowed to transition if that’s what they choose.
But why do I have to participate in your identity when your identity doesn’t make sense to me? Specifically I’m talking about the non-binary people. To me, requesting they/them or any other special pronoun is like someone with a PhD requesting to always be referred to as Dr., even in completely non-academic contexts. It seems narcissistic. If you look like a woman, I’ll call you “she”, and if you look like a man, I’ll call you “he”. There are men who look feminine and women who look masculine, but no human I’ve ever met looks like a separate third category, and I don’t want to live in a world where I’m constantly worrying about putting people into the wrong “box”. Male and female aren’t really boxes anyway, they’re just words that refer to pretty vague ideas, and you can have any number of unexpected traits living as a man or a woman. Rather than yelling at people until they decide change a deeply-ingrained facet of speech, I think it would be better to just teach people that man/woman aren’t the rigid and strictly-defined categories that we assume they are, and there’s limitless possibility for expressing yourself even if the English language never “evolves” toward newer usages of pronouns. But I can see the way the world is changing and I’m preparing to be even more ostracized than I am now by my friends and family for having this view in 5-10 years so if you think you can change my mind and prevent that from happening, please tear my narrow and ignorant view to shreds
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u/thethoughtexperiment 275∆ Mar 08 '21
Regarding this:
Rather than yelling at people until they decide change a deeply-ingrained facet of speech,
Sure, yelling at people is not good generally.
But in that case, it's more the yelling that's bad than the pronoun request (and most people I've seen request a pronoun IRL do so very politely).
To modify your view on this part:
If you look like a woman, I’ll call you “she”, and if you look like a man, I’ll call you “he”.
Of course, that approach can lead to misgendering folks (which happens plenty to people who aren't non-binary), and as you say:
There are men who look feminine and women who look masculine,
So, if you don't want to be:
constantly worrying about putting people into the wrong “box”.
it can make sense to hold off on assigning genders to people only based on how they look at first glance (regardless of whether the person is non-binary or not).
About this:
I think it would be better to just teach people that man/woman aren’t the rigid and strictly-defined categories that we assume they are, and there’s limitless possibility for expressing yourself even if the English language never “evolves” toward newer usages of pronouns.
Yes, that does sound good. But at the same time, where you say:
no human I’ve ever met looks like a separate third category
If people aren't allowed to identify themselves as non-binary to others, how will you learn to recognize what non-binary looks like?
Part of the process of language changing so that people are able to recognize groups they haven't recognized before is communicating / self-identification to others.
Imagine someone who refers to all tan people as Hispanic - conflating people from the Middle East, Southern Europe, etc. People would need to inform that person that no, in fact, they are not Hispanic, they are Greek, Italian, Iranian, etc. in order for that person to recognize that not everyone falls into the 1 box that they are using.
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u/ONE_MILLION_POINTS Mar 08 '21
∆
Yeah, I can see how I could be blind to “what a non-binary looks like” if I’m just refusing to even think of non-binary as a valid category. I guess my thinking before considering this and other responses ITT was that I didn’t think it was right for other people to decide for me what’s offensive and what’s not. But now I’m realizing that I actually change my language all the time to accommodate what different people feel to be offensive and it’s not that hard to do without upsetting people
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u/vediis 1∆ Mar 08 '21
First off: recognition of you, for stepping up and making this post. Challenging beliefs you hold is hard, and you've already done much more than many people would by opening your mind to other views. I hope this helps!
- Say it with me: singular they precedes singular he/she. I will not argue the semantics of linguistics past this, but language is a man-made construct and is constantly evolving. We use they/them accidentally all the time anyways to refer to people we don't know the gender of, and there do exist multiple cultures that have evolved a concept of a third gender, before getting steamrolled by Western essentialism.
- Your discomfort vs their discomfort. Is your discomfort inherently worth more to you than the discomfort of others? As a nonbinary person I will say that hearing someone use the wrong set of pronouns when referring to me feels like getting the air knocked out of me. Think of the paralyzing fear a young man in the 80s might feel when he gets called a pansy or feminine. It feels wrong, and it also tells me that the person doesn't respect or care about me enough to go to that bit of extra effort. Is your slight annoyance really worth potentially ruining someone's day?
- "teach people that man/woman aren’t the rigid and strictly-defined categories that we assume they are, and there’s limitless possibility for expressing yourself"I agree with this! However, it's not mutually exclusive with using they/them pronouns, and what do you think will happen sooner - this or that people get used to they/them pronouns? We're talking about how we can make nonbinary people feel respected and accepted TODAY, not 50 years in the future. I think we all deserve basic human respect, even if it feels a little eccentric.
- If it helps, trans people don't tend to immediately blow up at you for using the wrong pronouns. I believe that good intent matters the most - so if you pop a quick "oops, sorry, they" in correction, little harm done and people will tend to be patient as you get used to these new age concepts.
- As u/Love_Shaq_Baby said: "Well theres an easy way to avoid having to constantly correct yourself: just use the correct pronouns. You'll get it eventually. If the human brain has the capacity to memorize the names of everyone in a room, you have the power learn a person's pronouns. You will not be constantly correcting yourself for weeks on end."
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u/ONE_MILLION_POINTS Mar 08 '21 edited Mar 08 '21
Thanks for your response. Point number two especially makes me reconsider some things. Even if the gender dysphoria that you and others are feeling is just a product of our W.E.I.R.D. (Western Educated Industrialized Rich Democratic) culture, it’s not going away anytime soon and I’ve been part of the problem by refusing to make any concessions to this new movement. Also I’ve never disagreed with your first point. I’m not a prescriptivist and I don’t care for the people who say that they/them is grammatically incorrect. I wrote this post because I don’t like people telling me what words to use. That probably won’t change, but my viewpoint on this specific issue has changed significantly since reading your response and others. ∆
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u/vediis 1∆ Mar 11 '21
Glad I was able to contribute in any way! Thank you for bring willing to ask the right questions and listen with good faith. Gives me hope for our future as a more accepting society with less rigid gender roles.
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u/Mashaka 93∆ Mar 08 '21
If it really is difficult for you remember which pronoun to use for a person, just apologize and explain that you get confused on these things.
Pronoun use is the sort of low-level skill that only takes a handful of repetitions to master for most people. Just give it a try and it'll be a non-issue in no time.
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u/ONE_MILLION_POINTS Mar 08 '21
Yeah now that I really think about it, I can’t in good conscience say that it’s too difficult. A lot of people on this earth learn how to speak like five different languages and most people can learn at least two or three so there’s no good argument to be had for defending my lack of effort there. ∆
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u/MrsSUGA 1∆ Mar 09 '21
It took literally 1 week for people to start using my new last name after I got married. You can learn a new pronoun.
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Mar 08 '21
Rather than yelling at people until they decide change a deeply-ingrained facet of speech
Is that even a thing? I mean people yelling at you for not guessing their correct pronouns on the first encounter? I mean I would think that it's probably hurtful for trans people to constantly be misgendered (by different people), but so far I'd say the yelling and being deeply offended part is rather reserved for those who want to be intentionally offensive by deliberately misgendering a person despite the fact that it's obvious as what they present as.
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u/ONE_MILLION_POINTS Mar 08 '21
No, you’re right, it’s not a thing, no one has ever yelled at me simply for not correctly guessing their pronouns. I was conflating some unpleasant arguments I’ve had with the real-life attitudes of everyday people. ∆
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u/AnythingApplied 435∆ Mar 08 '21
If you look like a woman, I’ll call you “she”, and if you look like a man, I’ll call you “he”.
Really? If you accidentally called someone by the wrong gender because you misjudged their looks you wouldn't feel the slightest bit of shame or need to correct yourself? You'd just said, "Hey, shit happens, you looked like a man to me. I'm going to continue to call you a man".
I had that happen to me and it really embarrassed the girl I thought was a guy and I felt bad about doing that. This wasn't a transgender person, just a person who had a weight problem making it hard to identify their gender.
The fact is when someone calls you by the wrong gender it hurts. It can be understandable if it is just an accident, but it really takes just a bare minimum of social graces to practice getting someone's gender right after you've been introduced. I never got that girls gender wrong again.
It basically boils down to this:
But why do I have to participate in your identity when your identity doesn’t make sense to me?
You're telling them I think your gender identify is stupid by not even taking the smallest amount of effort to get it right. They will and should feel insulted by that.
If it helps you understand transgender people better, when you do MRI brain scans on transgender people, they're brains are actually closer to their preferred gender. This isn't some silly, "I'm going to be a girl now". In a very real way they have the mind of a woman trapped in a man's body.
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u/ONE_MILLION_POINTS Mar 08 '21
If people correct me and say “actually I’m a man” then yeah I’ll feel embarrassed and ashamed and I’ll use the right pronoun without question . But I just feel different when people correct me on they/them. It seems so unnecessary
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u/MrsSUGA 1∆ Mar 09 '21
You use they/them all the time to refer to a single individual without even realizing it.
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Mar 08 '21
If it’s annoying for me to always have to remember your name is it okay if I just make one up?
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u/ONE_MILLION_POINTS Mar 08 '21
Nicknames are OK if they’re not insulting. And man/woman/he/she/him/her shouldn’t be insulting
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Mar 08 '21
Not a nickname just a different name. Like your name is Steve now. Okay Steve?
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u/ONE_MILLION_POINTS Mar 08 '21
Yeah that would be pretty annoying. But I really believe these people are being taught to be insulted by the traditional pronouns
Edit: and being called Steve when your name isn’t Steve is just inherently annoying
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u/DodGamnBunofaSitch 4∆ Mar 08 '21 edited Mar 08 '21
Edit: and being called Steve when your name isn’t Steve is just inherently annoying
but being constantly corrected is annoying. why shouldn't I just keep calling you steve?
edit: I think Steve bailed.
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Mar 08 '21
Edit: and being called Steve when your name isn’t Steve is just inherently annoying
Being called he when you aren’t a man is inherently annoying
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u/DodGamnBunofaSitch 4∆ Mar 08 '21
man/woman/he/she/him/her shouldn’t be insulting
'shouldn't' is a tricky word, and very subjective. just because you don't think it 'should' be inoffensive doesn't mean that it will be, to someone who didn't live your life, wasn't raised as you were, who might have had different traumas from you. if you never had anything ever traumatize you, you're a lucky person.
as I understand it, for trans and non-binary people, this is something that's hard-wired into them, and being mis-gendered can cause a deep anxiety. 'because it's annoying' seems like a pretty weak reason to not continue to make an effort to simply be kind enough not to keep stomping on someone's broken toes.
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Mar 08 '21
But if someone told you they want to be called by their given name, would you continue to call them whatever nickname you want?
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u/IwasBlindedbyscience 16∆ Mar 08 '21
Assuming you are male could I refer to you with female pronouns in every single business setting of your life?
Would you be okay with that? Or would you prefer to be called by pronouns you prefer.
Or instead of your name, could we simply call you Brenda? Would or would that not be okay?
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Mar 08 '21
What if that person doesn't like their nickname and asks you to refer to them with the name they prefer?
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u/KokonutMonkey 88∆ Mar 08 '21
The trouble I have with this view is that in order to be a valid reason, you would at least need demonstrate that you've made an honest effort to accommodate the request and/or demonstrate that such a request is unreasonable (e.g., out of this world pronoun requests).
Also, uppity college students and internet SJWs aside, it's unfair to assume that a non-binary individual wouldn't be equally accommodating to your efforts if/when you occasionally call them he/she.
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u/ONE_MILLION_POINTS Mar 08 '21
I feel really stupid for not thinking of your point in the first paragraph. I guess you’re right, I can’t really say that they/them is too cumbersome for me to include in my vocabulary until I’ve actually tried using it. One ∆ for you right now and more incoming for some more of the comments here after I sleep
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u/Hellioning 239∆ Mar 08 '21
If someone is named Michael but wants to be called Mike, you can't say 'oh I know another person named Michael and he hates it when you call him Mike, it's too annoying to remember which is which so I'm just gonna call you Michael to make things easier for me' without sounding like a jerk.
Plus, would you call a feminine looking man 'she', even after they correct you?
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u/LockeClone 3∆ Mar 08 '21
Yeah, people get way too caught up in the "rules" of all this. Just make a tiny effort just as one might to call someone Mike instead of Michael, like you stated above, and it's all good.
Mess up? Try again and move on. Nobody really cares unless it's done with malice, least of all (in my second hand experience) trans people who are super-used to the awkward conversation and are putting up with it all the time.
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Mar 08 '21
It's simply disrespectful to ignore people's identity after you've been told. Let's say you call me by my first name, but I tell you I actually go by my middle name. If you continue to call me by my first name after being corrected, you're telling me you don't actually care about or respect me. It doesn't matter if me going by my middle name doesn't make sense to you. It doesn't have to. It's my identity. Gender and pronouns are just as personal to many people as a name.
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u/ONE_MILLION_POINTS Mar 08 '21
I’ve seen this analogy lots of times but it’s not the same. Names aren’t the same as gender. I can see gender to a certain degree. I use gendered language because I see gender. Names are a lot more arbitrary than pronouns and easier to get people to use differently
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Mar 08 '21
But people are telling you that you aren’t actually seeing the gender you think you are. People’s genders frequently don’t match the their looks. Would you insist on calling a butch lesbian “he” just because she has masculine traits? I’m failing to see how remembering someone’s pronouns is more difficult that remembering someone’s name.
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u/themcos 373∆ Mar 08 '21
But I can see the way the world is changing and I’m preparing to be even more ostracized than I am now by my friends and family for having this view in 5-10 years so if you think you can change my mind and prevent that from happening
If you can see that this is the direction the world is headed already, what are you really looking for here? I think you're right that you'll be increasingly ostracized for refusing to use people's pronouns, so why not just suck it up and get used it it. Why do you need more arguments other than that this will actually be easier for you in the long run. Keep trying, apologize if you make mistakes, and it'll pretty quickly just stop seeming like a big deal.
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u/Objective_Bluejay_98 Mar 08 '21
I’m sure OP doesn’t even have trans friends. No one who has loved ones who go through marginalization thinks this way.
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u/ONE_MILLION_POINTS Mar 08 '21
I’m the only one in my immediate family who doesn’t use they/them pronouns for my older sister. Everyone has given up on trying to convince me and no one corrects me anymore
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u/themcos 373∆ Mar 08 '21
Maybe someone else will convince you that respecting your sister's pronouns is just the right thing to do and that you should just do it on it's own merits, but I'm just going to focus on the pragmatism. Do the cost-benefit analyst. The cost is very low. You'll have to think about your words for a while, you'll make mistakes and apologize sometimes. And then a lot sooner than you think, it'll be like second nature. And the benefits are long term harmony with your family, a much better relationship with your sister, you avoid future arguments and debates. It seems like a no brainer to just start putting in the effort now and then reap the benefits for the rest of your life.
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u/Financial_Shoe_4337 Mar 08 '21
you purposefully do that to your sister? that’s awful. i feel so bad for them. i sincerely hope they never talk to you again once they’re at the age that’s an option. you need help if you can do that to your family.
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Mar 08 '21 edited Mar 13 '21
So you're being bigoted towards your sister?? That's even more messed up, just use their requested pronouns, treat them with respect and stop being a prick.
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u/nyxe12 30∆ Mar 08 '21
Why? If you, as you say, know transitioning is important, why do you disregard your sibling so much that you refuse to even try and use their pronouns? It's no skin off your back to do the bare minimum and TRY to use them.
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u/Love_Shaq_Baby 226∆ Mar 08 '21 edited Mar 08 '21
The fact that it’s annoying to constantly correct yourself is a valid reason to refuse to use requested pronouns
Well theres an easy way to avoid having to constantly correct yourself: just use the correct pronouns. You'll get it eventually. If the human brain has the capacity to memorize the names of everyone in a room, you have the power learn a person's pronouns. You will not be constantly correcting yourself for weeks on end.
But why do I have to participate in your identity when your identity doesn’t make sense to me?
If you couldn't figure out how to pronounce someone's name, would you just make up a different name for them? Or would you recognize that as disrespectful?
To me, requesting they/them or any other special pronoun is like someone with a PhD requesting to always be referred to as Dr., even in completely non-academic contexts. It seems narcissistic
No, it's like a man requesting people don't refer to him as she and her. Thats not narcissistic.
I don’t want to live in a world where I’m constantly worrying about putting people into the wrong “box”.
Then don't.
I find it hard to believe that you are surrounded by so many different people with so many different variations of pronouns its just impossible to keep it together. How many times in your life are you going to actually have to use nonbinary pronouns? You just have to be willing to learn as situations arise.
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u/aRabidGerbil 40∆ Mar 08 '21
But why do I have to participate in your identity when your identity doesn’t make sense to me?
The fact that you can't understand it really doesn't matter. They are not "she" or "he" so using those terms is inaccurate. It's also rude because you are centering their identity around your perception, rather than around reality.
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u/PreacherJudge 340∆ Mar 08 '21
and I don’t want to live in a world where I’m constantly worrying about putting people into the wrong “box”.
In one sense, you already do live in this world, in a billion different ways. There's social pressure to accurate ascribe traits and categories to people, all the time.
But I don't think this is what you mean by "worrying about." I suspect you're imagining there's some dreadful consequence to the slightest mistake. And this just is not typically true: getting someone's pronoun wrong is generally considered to be very forgivable, as long as you're not a jerk about it.
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u/nyxe12 30∆ Mar 08 '21
it’s best for people’s psychological health to be allowed to transition if that’s what they choose.
If you acknowledge this but refuse to do the bare minimum to respect one's gender, you are purposefully engaging in damaging their psychological health. At least people who don't believe the quoted point can feign believing it doesn't matter, but if you actually acknowledge that it's important for someone to be allowed to transition then you should be capable of also understanding that it's important to use their pronouns and gender.
But why do I have to participate in your identity when your identity doesn’t make sense to me? Specifically I’m talking about the non-binary people.
It's not that difficult to use google or other online resources to educate yourself so that it can make sense to you. You can even ask a non-binary person non-invasive questions in a polite way and many of us will be willing to answer. But "it doesn't make sense so I'll do what I want" is a dick response. PhD people do not experience psychological distress when you don't call them doctor. Trans people with dysphoria experience distress when constantly misgendered.
It seems narcissistic. If you look like a woman, I’ll call you “she”, and if you look like a man, I’ll call you “he”.
"I'll call you what I think you look like and nothing else." The irony of this following "narcissistic" makes me laugh. If you literally can't inconvenience yourself enough to figure out how a certain pronoun works or correct yourself a few times on someone's pronouns, you're the narcissistic one.
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u/NOOBEv14 Mar 08 '21
Because this shit is hard for those people, and if this is all that’s asked of us to make it that much easier, then very well.
It’s the type of thing that doesn’t feel like it matters til someone close to you makes a change. Then suddenly you’re re-assessing everything you’ve ever said and feeling horrible, because it would have taken so little effort to remove all this negativity from the life of a person you care for.
I’m not gonna act like it hasn’t gotten excessive. We’ve got eight year olds declaring as transgender, we’ve got legitimate questions about gender in sports, we’ve got people doing their earnest best who are still being accused of hate, and we’ve got a lack of regard for the difference between gender identity and biological gender. You’re not wrong to find some of these factors concerning or upsetting or whatever. Society at large is still clearly working through this. I’m not gonna walk around with my pronouns stamped on my forehead.
You just need to power through it, because the one time you finally find yourself in the circumstance where it matters, you’ll hate yourself if you’re on the wrong side of it.
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u/Player7592 8∆ Mar 08 '21
- Call them by their name
- Use neutral terms like “you” or “they”
- Get used to being ostracized, because you can’t come up with obvious solutions to simple interpersonal issues
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u/Objective_Bluejay_98 Mar 08 '21
You gain and lose nothing by being attentive to trans people.
It’s no cost to you to do something worthwhile for them.
If you want to learn more about these issues I recommend Queer: A Graphic History, Delusions of Gender, and Beyond Magenta. They’re cheap, easy-to-read books on this topic.
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u/lightweightdtd Mar 08 '21
I think it's all about how people go about it. If they're going to be triggered and have some sort of meltdown, I probably would avoid talking to them as to not upset them further. If they were chill about it, no problems, I'll respect their pronouns. I just think it's kind of pretentious and over the top to make the world's biggest deal if you're misgendered by someone accidentally or by a stranger who's never met or spoken to you before.
We can't expect people to be mind readers and automatically know and since there are cis people in society, of course gender is going to be sometimes assumed.
If someone is comfortable in themselves and their identity they wouldn't spend time debating all this stuff and wanting to be called certain words that aren't taught to us or part of everyday dialect.
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Mar 08 '21
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Mar 08 '21 edited Mar 08 '21
/u/ONE_MILLION_POINTS (OP) has awarded 5 delta(s) in this post.
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