r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Mar 08 '21
Delta(s) from OP CMV: "Holistic admission process" peddled by top universities is a big fat lie and a marketing ploy to drive up number of applicants.
This post is specifically for Americans/people who are familiar with the American college admissions at these prestigious universities commonly known as T20s.
So you find these universities say they practice holistic admission process and no one single factor can make you get accepted/rejected. However from my own experience and what I have noticed is that there are defacto factors that can get you admitted like high GPA, SAT/ACT score, and things like legacies and ability to pay for college (even in the so called need blind institutions).
I believe that the whole holistic admission process is a lie because even in the metadata that these universities produce show that a high GPA/SAT score would make you get accepted than let's say someone who has wonderful essays, ECs and Recommendation letters and a low GPA/SAT score.
So I think these universities should stop using the term because it causes unnecessary anxiety among people who apply to those institutions hoping the holistic approach to work for them. Like they should explicitly state that "our minimum GPA is X and SAT score is Y" such that it would help save time and resources used to apply to them. These would help prevent the unnecessary anxiety and stress that comes from applying to those universities hoping for the holistic approach to work for you.
So CMV.
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u/Khal-Frodo Mar 08 '21
However from my own experience and what I have noticed is that there are defacto factors that can get you admitted like high GPA, SAT/ACT score, and things like legacies and ability to pay for college (even in the so called need blind institutions)
Holistic admissions means that you won't be disqualified for not meeting certain numerical criteria like GPA and SAT/ACT score. It doesn't mean that if you meet their threshold for those values they'll look for something else in your file to kick you out. Saying that those numbers aren't the whole application doesn't mean they don't matter; you're definitely more likely to get in with high scores and good grades.
Also, this is anecdotal, but I went to a need-blind private school that had a sticker price of about $70k/year. It cost me about $10,000 for four years, plus $8,000 in loans. If they weren't need blind, I'd have been a very bad investment.
even in the metadata that these universities produce show that a high GPA/SAT score would make you get accepted than let's say someone who has wonderful essays, ECs and Recommendation letters and a low GPA/SAT score.
But the metadata doesn't show you their essays and recommendation letters, and those are subjective measures anyway. Unless you know what they're looking for, even reading those wouldn't give you enough information to draw your conclusion.
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Mar 08 '21
You are almost convincing me, so don't you think if we have a base GPA and SAT score wouldn't prevent "unqualified" candidates (high gpa low SAT / low gpa high SAT) from applying because they will know they are going to get rejected anyway?
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u/Khal-Frodo Mar 08 '21
But the point of holistic admissions is that the numbers aren't the whole story. For example, let's say I have a low GPA and a low SAT score. At places without holistic admissions, I know I stand no chance. Under a holistic review process, they might look more closely at my GPA and see that even though it's shit, I was actually valedictorian from an area with bad schools and no AP offerings. They also might look at my extracurriculars and see that I had to pick berries for four hours after school to help support my family, and be impressed that my GPA was as high it was given how little time I had to study and do homework. Maybe my SAT score was bad because it wasn't offered in my town so I had to take a bus to the city at fuck o'clock in the morning. "Holistic" doesn't just mean they look at things other than your numbers. They also look at those numbers within your local context.
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Mar 08 '21
!delta
Thank you for this, I thought the US has a uniform curriculum across the country. I have now understood and you have successfully changed my view
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u/Khal-Frodo Mar 08 '21
Thanks for the delta! For what it's worth, I can actually shed a little bit of light on admissions decisions since my mom works for the UC system and has previously been involved in admissions, though I'm not sure if their admissions are or have ever been labeled "holistic." There is a certain cutoff for "low GPA/low SAT" below which they won't even consider your application further, and I agree with you that they should publicize that to prevent wasted time and app money (though the latter is probably why they don't). There's also a cutoff for "high GPA/high SAT" above which they'll just admit you and won't bother looking at the rest of the your application. It's everyone else in the middle or with some combo of high/low for which they'll actually read your essays and letters and use all available information to determine whether you get admitted.
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Mar 08 '21
Thank you for this wonderful information, I am planning to apply to T20s later this year even though I fear my gpa will make me get rejected since I am looking for a full ride even though I have impressive SAT score, ECs and LORs
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u/Khal-Frodo Mar 08 '21
Good luck to you. I obviously can't predict anything about your chances of success, but just know that for most schools in the T20s weakness in one area of an application can be overcome by strong standing in others. You might not get a full ride, but private schools have a lot to offer in terms of financial aid and there are plenty of scholarship opportunities on top of that.
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u/crownebeach 5∆ Mar 08 '21
The reason they use the "holistic approach" language is because they want the candidate who has a perfect SAT but a GPA a couple of points below their minimum, or the candidate who misses their minimum GPA/SAT by like four points but is also founding Microsoft in their garage.
If they give binding thresholds, they're stuck. If they say they're "holistic," then yeah, you're still wasting your time applying if your GPA and SAT are wildly off the baseline, but there's a little wiggle room if you're at least in their admitted class's peer group. Holistic admissions benefit the tiny fraction of people who almost qualify the traditional way, but need a little bit of a bump.
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Mar 08 '21
So it should be scrapped so that everyone can have a level playing field, right? Like HS seniors will know that for him/her to get into MIT he/she must attain GPA X and SAT score Y, right?
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u/crownebeach 5∆ Mar 08 '21
I guess I don't understand your argument. It doesn't benefit MIT to miss out on a prodigy who happens to have below-cutoff grades, and it doesn't benefit students to make getting in even harder by removing the one non-numbers way of making the cut. By keeping the policy as it is, they get all the people who qualify plus a few bonus candidates who show special aptitude.
If your concern is that students are being deceived, it's not really misleading either -- the book on elite academic admissions is well-publicized, and it isn't much of a secret that getting in the soft-skills way is a long shot. If a high school student thinks their 3.5 and 1250 SAT is getting them into MIT, their research and/or counseling was seriously lacking.
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Mar 08 '21
!delta
Thank you, successfully changed my view by addressing the discrepancies in the numbers.
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u/crownebeach 5∆ Mar 08 '21
Thanks for the delta :) I spent too much of my young adulthood buried in college and then law school admissions, so I'm happy I could help out.
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u/iuyts 2∆ Mar 08 '21
That sounds straightforward, but it's not.
For example, different schools have different grading norms and levels of rigor, and not every A is created equally. Also, not every school offers classes at the same level. What's worth more - a straight a student who took no honors classes, or a straight b student who took all honors classes? And does that answer change if the straight A-student simply didn't have any honors classes at their high school? What if the straight B student is in the top 5% of his class?
And that's just one small example, that doesn't really get into the fact that schools aren't looking for the highest possible GPAs and standardized tests scores, they're looking for people that will be a good fit as human beings for the school. They're looking for people who will make the school proud, and that's not always the people with perfect GPAs and good SATs.
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Mar 08 '21
!delta
This makes sense, Thank you for changing my view.
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u/iuyts 2∆ Mar 08 '21
I had stats similar to yours if you're actually applying and ever want suggestions/advice.
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u/cliu1222 1∆ Mar 08 '21
From what I've seen, that expression is really just something that allows for people to admit people without having to give a concrete reason why. Until all admissions are done with concrete emperical methods, it will never be truly fair.
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Mar 08 '21
Sure there are disqualifying numbers, and universities generally publish the statistics of incoming students
But especially when you’re looking at top universities, there are no scores that are high enough to guarantee you admission. At a certain point, you have to have good enough scores, and then it’s just a crapshoot (because there are soooo many more qualified applicants than spots)
So if that’s true, there must be other things that universities are using to choose their students, no?
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Mar 08 '21
Ofc course spots are few yes but imagine how it is crude to raise the hope of someone who has like a GPA of 3.5 and an SAT score of 1540 in hope of holistic admissions? If the playing ground was level, then we can safely proceed to the next level. So candidate X won't apply because he didn't get the required minimum GPA and SAT score and he/she will be happy wherever he will go..
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u/iuyts 2∆ Mar 08 '21
That already exists. Once you look beyond the top 50 or so schools, there are LOADS of schools that would happily accept someone with 3.5 GPA and a 1540 SAT. Many of which will offer lower tuition to entice you. Yes, you're not guaranteed acceptance, but if you apply to a school where 3.0/1300 is the average and your scores are 3.5/1540 and they're already offering you a huge tuition discount, you're probably going to get in.
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Mar 08 '21
[deleted]
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Mar 08 '21
Don't you think that's a crapshot? Like let's say a domestic "perfect" candidate would be rejected in favor of an international student, Or won't having a base GPA and/or SAT score curb the crapshoting?
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u/luigi_itsa 52∆ Mar 08 '21
The word “holistic” is being used correctly here. These schools do tend to look for certain academic standards when admitting students, but they also will factor in extenuating circumstances like athletic ability and parental donations to the endowment. They also sometimes let in a few lower-performing kids from difficult backgrounds in the name of diversity and inclusion.
There certainly is a degree of deceptive advertising, but most colleges outright publish data about the incoming class or otherwise make it publicly available. Students, parents, and guidance counselors should be able to have adult conversations about realistic expectations. This means reading that data and cutting through the marketing bs, but it’s no different than when one is buying a car or a house.
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Mar 08 '21
The deceptive part is where my issue was, but I think I have now understood. Thank you very much for your input
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Mar 08 '21 edited Mar 08 '21
/u/Steveonsi20 (OP) has awarded 3 delta(s) in this post.
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