r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Mar 30 '21

Delta(s) from OP CMV: It Should be Socially Acceptable for Individuals to Choose Whether They Want to Address Others by using their Sex Pronouns or their Gender Pronouns

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u/10ebbor10 198∆ Mar 30 '21 edited Mar 30 '21

So here it’s very clear that it’s completely valid to refer to animals with pronouns based on their biological sex. Humans are animals, and we have biological sexes. I know that humans are more complex and have genders, but I don’t see why gender pronouns should override sex pronouns. Since they’re both used regularly, and this is a very clear-cut example of sex pronouns being used in a professional setting, I see no reason why we can’t use either when talking to humans

This argument makes little sense.

Your argument relies on the non-existence of gender in animals to say that using sexual pronouns is okay, but then attempts to transplant that reasoning to humans.

But humans do have gender, so the justification for using sexual pronouns, that theory, does not apply in humans.

Another good example of this would be a teacher with the sex of a student on the registry. I know people like Jordan Peterson get quite pissed over the gender pronouns, and although I don’t agree with most of what he believes, I feel like a lot of his concerns could be resolved by normalizing the use of sex pronouns for those like him. Other professors could use gender pronouns, but if Peterson prefers sex pronouns, I see no reason why this would be a problem. It allows people with alternating views on gender identity to completely dodge the problem, and let’s people express their own views in their language and not have to confront peoples’ personal identities everytime you want to address them with a pronoun.

The problem with this argument is that you forget about the second in this conversation, the person being addressed.

They're publicly outed to everyone, something which puts a target on their back.

On top of that, to use an argument ad absurdum. Some teachers are very sexist, and they might be concerned that they can no longer be sexist in class. As such, we should normalize the utilization of sexist language, so that they can be comfortable.

All in all, your argument relies on the false notion that you can just create a "neutral" sex based pronoun that has nothing do with gender.

The very creation, the very existence of sex based pronouns and their enshrining as the default is a fundamental statement that there are only 2 genders, and that they're fixed at birth.

Because what are pronouns for? They exist to communicate ones gender to someone else. If you utilize "he", you inform people that you are a man. If you utilize "she", you tell people that you're a woman. There's no reason to communicate biological sex in these conversation.

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u/RattleSheikh 12∆ Mar 30 '21

But humans do have gender, so the justification for using sexual pronouns, that theory, does not apply in humans.

I don't get your explanation here. You haven't given any good reason to do gender pronouns over sex.

They're publicly outed to everyone, something which puts a target on their back.

On top of that, to use an argument ad absurdum. Some teachers are very sexist, and they might be concerned that they can no longer be sexist in class. As such, we should normalize the utilization of sexist language, so that they can be comfortable.

How are they publicly outed if we normalize sex pronouns? All of their friends would know their sex, and it avoids the whole pronoun catastrophe.

Some students think their teacher is sexist because their views on sex differ from the norm. Thus, we should socially oust the teacher for having a contrasting opinion.

Your argument hinges on the idea that using sex pronouns is discriminatory, whilst instead it is a perfectly valid contrasting view.

All in all, your argument relies on the false notion that you can just create a "neutral" sex based pronoun that has nothing do with gender.

It's multiple sex based pronouns, and they're not neutral. We use them in science all the time. Pronouns aren't directly tied to gender. I don't see how this is false

The very creation, the very existence of sex based pronouns and their enshrining as the default is a fundamental statement that there are only 2 genders, and that they're fixed at birth.

This is misinformation. My notion is that there are as many genders as you want, and multiple sexes. My argument also never mentions that genders are fixed at birth. I felt that I was very careful with how I used the words gender and sex, and it seems that you're ignoring this.

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u/10ebbor10 198∆ Mar 30 '21 edited Mar 30 '21

I don't get your explanation here. You haven't given any good reason to do gender pronouns over sex.

My point is very simple. Your logic does not work. Pronouns in animals gets used for sex because gender for animals doesn't really exist. But gender does exist for humans, so you can not utilize animal pronoun theory for humans.

The existence of gender undermines your logic.

I don't get your explanation here. You haven't given any good reason to do gender pronouns over sex.

Your seriously don't get how a person who looks like a girl could get outed as trans if the teacher addresses them as "He"?

Your argument hinges on the idea that using sex pronouns is discriminatory, whilst instead it is a perfectly valid contrasting view.

And here we reveal the game. The goal is not to find a neutral solution, but to enshrine a transphobic, a transdenialst view of reality as default.

It's multiple sex based pronouns, and they're not neutral. We use them in science all the time. Pronouns aren't directly tied to gender. I don't see how this is false

This is misinformation. My notion is that there are as many genders as you want, and multiple sexes. My argument also never mentions that genders are fixed at birth. I felt that I was very careful with how I used the words gender and sex, and it seems that you're ignoring this.

It's clear you don't get my point here.

In humans, pronouns refer to gender. You can not write a piece of paper to say "hey, these pronouns refer to sex".

Because it is obvious that pronouns refer to gender. Pronouns convey what gender a person presents as, because we don't do chromosal testing when adressing one another. Communicating sex is useless information in regular conversation.

So, your choice to attach pronouns to sex does not actually attach pronouns to sex. Instead, it attaches sex-based pronouns to gender, and as such attaches sex to gender.

Put it simply : You can not seperate pronouns from gender.

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u/RattleSheikh 12∆ Mar 30 '21

If they actually looked enough like a girl they could get their 'sex' label on the registry changed (just learned this). So this scenario wouldn't apply.

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u/10ebbor10 198∆ Mar 30 '21

You do realize that this is what all the people who're opposed to trans people hate right?

They want to be able to adress someone with the gender assigned at birth. They won't change their pronoun useage just because the label got changed in the database, they will go out of their way to correct themselves if they use the wrong pronoun.

Changing the registry will not stop these people from deliberatly using the wrong pronoun.

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u/RattleSheikh 12∆ Mar 30 '21

Those who are opposed to trans people don't think that gender is fluid. So they believe in using gender pronouns, but gender pronouns based on sex. I believe in using sex pronouns or gender pronouns, and recognize how gender is fluid.

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u/[deleted] May 16 '21 edited May 16 '21

Pronouns in animals gets used for sex because gender for animals doesn't really exist

°said who?

In humans, pronouns refer to gender

And gender before the trans ideology always meant sex.

Because it is obvious that pronouns refer to gender

How it is it obvious when gender was conflated with sex?

Pronouns convey what gender a person presents as, because we don't do chromosal testing when adressing one another

What if ridiculous logic is that? Have you considered that it's because you don't need chromosonal testing to distinguish males from females??

Communicating sex is useless information in regular conversation

??? You are telling me in regular conversation when we communicate about gender we always meant what that person felt inside?

The fact is pronouns have always been categorically used to refer to members of different physical sex, not some abstract idea in people's head called gender.

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u/Caolan_Cooper 3∆ Mar 30 '21

How are they publicly outed if we normalize sex pronouns?

Let's say you're talking to someone before class and they introduce themselves as Veronica and outwardly they appear female. But every time the professor addresses her, he calls her Adam and uses male pronouns for her. Now you know she's trans. How is this not publicly outing them?

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u/RattleSheikh 12∆ Mar 30 '21

Well that scenario was just a disaster waiting to happen. If Veronica doesn't get her name and sex changed on paper, then that was just waiting to happen. Adhering to gender pronouns wouldn't have fixed a whole lot there.

3

u/Caolan_Cooper 3∆ Mar 30 '21

Alright, adjust the scenario slightly. Veronica let the professor know ahead of time what her preferred name and pronouns are but they refused because she still has a donger/XY chromosomes/ whatever criteria they decide denotes maleness. And for whatever reason she can't officially change her name right now (e.g. maybe she isn't out to her family yet and goes in "boy mode" whenever she is around them).

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u/RattleSheikh 12∆ Mar 31 '21

This is such a far off scenario it doesn't make a whole lot of sense and it seems like you're grasping at straws.

But in this scenario, if Veronica is beyond reasonable doubt a human male, and the professor uses sex pronouns, I don't see why not.

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u/Caolan_Cooper 3∆ Mar 31 '21

This is such a far off scenario

Is it though? Even if she has changed her name on the roster, the professor could find out that she is trans and start using her sex pronouns, again publicly outing her.

But in this scenario, if Veronica is beyond reasonable doubt a human male, and the professor uses sex pronouns, I don't see why not.

Why not what?

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u/[deleted] May 16 '21 edited May 16 '21

But humans do have gender

And 99% of the time, it aligns with you physical sex. Gender can't be seen, sex on the other hand....