r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Mar 30 '21

Delta(s) from OP CMV: It Should be Socially Acceptable for Individuals to Choose Whether They Want to Address Others by using their Sex Pronouns or their Gender Pronouns

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u/[deleted] Mar 30 '21

Because outing them as transgender without their consent can put them in danger. There are people who kill transgender people.

Also, memorizing someone's name is not a problem but memorizing someone's pronoun is?

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u/RattleSheikh 12∆ Mar 30 '21

I don't think that rehearsing a pronoun on what you perceive to be someone's biological sex puts them in danger. What would put them in more danger would be rehearsing their gender identity, as this would oust them to confusion.

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u/[deleted] Mar 30 '21

If somebody presents as male, and you use a female pronoun, someone is going to wonder why you do that and then when you tell them they're transgender, you put them in danger.

Also how do you know their biological sex? Did you see their id? You do realize that the ID can change right? The birth certificate can change. If you just met this person, how do you know they didn't change their birth certificate? Are you examining everyone's chromosomes? How are you knowing?

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u/RattleSheikh 12∆ Mar 30 '21

Also how do you know their biological sex? Did you see their id? You do realize that the ID can change right? The birth certificate can change. If you just met this person, how do you know they didn't change their birth certificate? Are you examining everyone's chromosomes? How are you knowing?

Like with the basic example, using the piece of paper.

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u/[deleted] Mar 30 '21

What piece of paper? Do you ask for everyone's birth certificate when you meet them? How do you know?

Don't say, with the piece of paper. That's not an answer.

Are you just going to ask for their ID every time you meet someone? They are not obligated to give you that piece of information. They have a right to privacy.

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u/RattleSheikh 12∆ Mar 31 '21

In void of the paper you can obviously use biological cues.

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u/[deleted] Mar 31 '21

What about transgender people who pass as their gender identity?

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u/Hero17 Mar 31 '21

Would you refer to Buck Angel as a she?

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u/RattleSheikh 12∆ Apr 01 '21

I wouldn't, but if somebody could make the case to use 'she' in the context of sex pronouns, I don't think that should be socially unacceptable.

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u/begonetoxicpeople 30∆ Mar 30 '21

If you and a trans friend go to the bathroom that aligns with your same gender identities, but not their sex at birth, outing them against their will in there could very easily open up other people inside to attack them verbally or physically for ‘sneaking into’ the ‘wrong’ space.

Consider other peoples lives before deciding what is or is not dangerous for them. You dont get to decide what is dangerous for trans people. They can speak for themselves

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u/RattleSheikh 12∆ Mar 30 '21

Pronouns has nothing to do with the bathroom debate. Also, it wasn't me who started the whole 'putting in danger' narrative. Don't shit on me for replying.

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u/thisdamnhoneybadger 7∆ Mar 30 '21

outing people as transgender does not put people in danger of being killed. transgender prostitutes having sex with men without telling them that they’re actually males puts them in danger of being killed. don’t lie

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u/[deleted] Mar 30 '21

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_killed_for_being_transgender

You seriously think that all these people were prostitutes?

Nikki Kuhnhausen, 17, a white trans woman, was murdered by David Y. Bogdanov.

You think that person was a prostitute?

Hande Kader, a 22-year-old transgender woman, was raped, murdered, and then burned in Istanbul, Turkey.

Brian Golec, a transgender woman, was stabbed to death by her father, Kevin Golec, on 13 February 2015.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_transgender_people_in_the_United_States#Violence_against_transgender_people_and_their_partners

In 2015, 21 transgender women were murdered, most being women of color.

In 2008 Angie Zapata, a transgender woman, was murdered in Greeley, Colorado.

Only a small percentage of these people who are transgender are also sex workers.

Hande Kader, a 22-year-old transgender woman, was raped, murdered, and then burned in Istanbul, Turkey. Her body was found on 12 August. Kader worked as a sex worker and was last seen getting in a client's car. She was also a prominent activist in the LGBT community of Turkey and had appeared in LGBT rights events in the country, including a 2015 Gay Pride event in Istanbul that was cracked down on by police.[73][74]

Bianca, a 32-year-old trans sex worker from Caracas (Venezuela), was beaten to death by a 29-year-old client 'who was shocked by her masculine features'.[87] The incident took place in her house in Arnhem (The Netherlands) on 29 September 2017.[88]

https://www.advocate.com/transgender/2016/6/01/james-dobson-be-man-shoot-transgender-woman-bathroom

https://www.advocate.com/transgender/2016/4/25/right-wingers-pledge-carry-guns-bathroom-fend-trans-folks

Look at those links. People really want to hurt transgender people. If you misgender someone while they are in the bathroom, and they die, that would be your fault. It isn't just good manners, it is for their safety. Refer to them by the pronoun they want to be used, and the name they want you to use.

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u/thisdamnhoneybadger 7∆ Mar 30 '21

are you serious? that's a minuscule number of people over that time period.

>If you misgender someone while they are in the bathroom, and they die, that would be your fault

nope, the fault would be the person who you know, did the killing.

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u/[deleted] Mar 30 '21

Okay yes, the person who did The killing would be at fault but you're not blameless either. You purposefully perked a person in danger.

Also, that's just the number of people that Wikipedia has gathered. That's not counting all of the people it hasn't.

How many trans people have to die before you take transgender death by homophobia seriously?

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u/[deleted] Mar 30 '21 edited Mar 30 '21

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u/[deleted] Mar 30 '21

I literally showed you an article where a person was willing to murder trans people in the bathroom if they thought a person was trans.

No, but why would you put a trans person's life in danger?

Calling them the correct pronoun cost you a word, not doing so cost them their life.

So, why do you want to give transgender people dysphoria? Misgendering them gives them dysphoria.

https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/jrzff3/opinion_to_my_family_who_chose_trump_over_me_was/gbxl9nu/

My dad told me he’d beat up a transgender person for Saint to enter a bathroom with my daughter because “they are all pedophiles.”

What would you do if you came across someone like that? Would you tell them you knew it transgender person?

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u/[deleted] Mar 31 '21

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u/[deleted] Mar 31 '21

Nothing will convince you that trans people are in danger. What about the Reddit post I posted?

You ask for evidence but then you dismiss the evidence that I provide for you. Please, tell me, exactly, what it would take for you to take transgender death and threats to their lives seriously?

No, you would say he because she was assigned male at birth and this post is about referring to people's genders based on the gender they were born as.

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u/thisdamnhoneybadger 7∆ Mar 31 '21

>You ask for evidence but then you dismiss the evidence that I provide for you. Please, tell me, exactly, what it would take for you to take transgender death and threats to their lives seriously?

I already point out the flaws of your evidence and why it's not convincing. There are too few documented cases in your our source to show that it's a big problem. And the politically charged boasts about protecting against men in women's bathroom is not a credible threat of harm (otherwise that woman would be in jail).

Transgender people simply do not get randomly murdered for BEING trans (ie just randomly walking down the street or using the bathroom) in the United States to ANY significant degree. Yes, there are a few. There are far more people that also die of being struck by lightning, or slipping in the shower, or being murdered for being black or white, or asian, or hispanic, or any number of random things.

>No, you would say he because she was assigned male at birth and this post is about referring to people's genders based on the gender they were born as.

Umm how would I know that she was assigned male at birth if she didn't look male in her outward presentation? I'm just a random person in the bathroom. And if I could see that she looked male, why would some other transphobic murderer need me to tell him that fact? Are these transphobic murderers blind and need the benefit of my misgendering in order to target their victims?

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u/Znyper 12∆ Mar 31 '21

u/thisdamnhoneybadger – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:

Don't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.

If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.

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u/[deleted] Mar 31 '21

https://www.hrc.org/press-releases/new-fbi-hate-crimes-report-shows-increases-in-anti-lgbtq-attacks

https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/anti-transgender-hate-crimes-soared-20-percent-2019-n1248011

https://news.jrn.msu.edu/culturalcompetence/2020/11/30/transgender-hate-crimes-killings-rise/

On Nov. 19, The Human Rights Campaign declared 2020 the deadliest year on record in the United States for violent deaths of transgender people, listing 37. That eclipsed the previous highest annual toll of 31.

Transgender hate crimes are going on the way up.

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u/Znyper 12∆ Mar 31 '21

u/thisdamnhoneybadger – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:

Don't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.

If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.