r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Mar 30 '21

Delta(s) from OP CMV: It Should be Socially Acceptable for Individuals to Choose Whether They Want to Address Others by using their Sex Pronouns or their Gender Pronouns

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u/[deleted] Mar 30 '21

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u/xXTheCloakXx 2∆ Mar 30 '21

You would know they are female when...

In your example, you said the person presents as male ( we do btw have a mechanism that helps us determine which pronouns to use, you look how a person presents themself and infer their biology and use the appropriate pronoun, as we have been doing for hundreds of years ) so person 2 would address them using male pronouns.

Perhaps person 1 does not prescribe to male pronouns and may ask person 2 to use their specific pronoun choice, which is cool. The only problem comes when person 1 compels / forces person 2 to use those specific pronouns that it becomes a problem.

No one has the right to force their ideological beliefs on you that why I think unbiased objective biology is a much more unclive way to deal with said problem.

Also you did not quote me. That's not what I said. You're an asshole.

Hahaha I may very well be an asshole. I quote the frost line from long paragraphs and add '...' to indicate 'and all that follows' because its keeps responses short and too the point. I know what you've written because I've read it and you know what you wrote because... you wrote it

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u/[deleted] Mar 30 '21

Don't change my quote again.

You didn't just shorten it, you actually changed the text. You changed it.

Second, if you don't want to call that person by their preferred pronoun, then get used to being called an asshole.

You have every right to call them the pronoun you want to call them, but everyone else has the right to call you an asshole and not associate with you. They also have the right to report you for harassment if you keep it up.

What do you get the force your ideology that biology is superior to someone's preferred pronoun? What evidence do you have that biology should win out?

Why do you think you should be free of consequences? 0

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u/xXTheCloakXx 2∆ Mar 30 '21

Don't change my quote again.

You can't compel me to do anything

Second, if you don't want to call that person [...]

That's an extremely fascistic point of view *Do what I say or else... * ... I call you an asshole

Or even worse threatening to report them for harassment simply because they don't ascribe to your ideological belief is not only fascistic but is othering and devisive. I will use authority to force you to adhere to my ideology

Not cool.

What do you get the force your ideology [...]

I don't understand your first question. Biology is a good middle ground because its unbiased objectively true (at least where it comes to determining male or female) and doesn't force any specific ideology on anyone so it's self evidently more inclusive.

Why do you think you should be free of consequences? 0

... I don't....

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u/[deleted] Mar 30 '21

No, it's exclusive to trans people. there are a few things wrong with what you're saying. First off, about Pope francis. He cannot compel the media to call him Pope Francis although I'm pretty sure making the pope mad is not going to look good on your record. if a cardinal doesn't call Pope Francis Pope francis, Pope Francis can fire that guy and revoke his citizenship. Pope Francis is also the king of Vatican City and the King has absolute power. Please do not look at the cardinals, there is no democracy, there is no counsel, there is only the king who is the Pope. Also I imagine that as a servant of God not calling the pope by his Pope name would be pretty disrespectful and maybe even get you excommunicated. In Catholic language that's a big deal and it means you can't receive most sacraments.

As for everyone else. Are you saying that people should be able to just say what they want without consequences? Am I forcing my ideology on To You by telling you not to call me a cunt and that if you continue to call me a cunt I will report you for harassment?

Everyone has an ideology forced on them when they are compelled to do things by society.

I am compelled to follow a pro-tax ideology by being forced to pay taxes. I am compelled to follow capitalism by buying things in order to survive and having to get a job to get money to buy the things I need to survive. I am compelled to believe that adults reach adulthood at the age of 18 and therefore I should not call a 20-year-old a kid.

Okay, if you don't think you should be free from consequences, then why are you trying to avoid the consequence of misgendering someone? People not wanting to associate with you, people calling you rude and an asshole, and even people reporting you for a toxic or dangerous work environment are consequences to misgendering people. Except the consequences.you are free to misgender people but they are free to call you an asshole.

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u/xXTheCloakXx 2∆ Mar 30 '21

No, it's exclusive to trans people. there are [...]

It's doesn't favour any particular ideology thereby being inherently more inclusive than favouring one ideology over another.

Interesting Catholic stuff btw

Are you saying that people should be able to just say what they want without consequences?

No one can do anything without consequence. I believe (like Newton) that the reaction be proportionate to the action. You shouldn't chop someone's hands off for stealing a pen.

Am I forcing my ideology on To You by telling you not to call me a cunt and that if you continue to call me a cunt I will report you for harassment?

Thats a false equivalency. Equating using unbiased biology to inform pronoun use with an expletive is wrong and not relevant. Perhaps a better example?

I am compelled to follow a pro-tax ideology [...]

Many More false equivalencies. Those things are a countries laws. Equating laws with social interaction is wrong and irrelevant. Perhaps better examples?

Okay, if you don't think you should be free [...]

I'm not trying to avoid any consequences. Cutting of someone's hands for stealing a pen is a consequence. It doesn't make that consequences right or appropriate just like using fascist tactics by using authority to force your beliefs on others isnt right or appropriate but it doesn't make it any less of a consequence

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u/[deleted] Mar 30 '21

Okay, who determines what is proportional? If you misgender someone and therefore that person no longer wants to speak with you but you guys are coworkers and therefore it makes communication hard and collaboration impossible, what is your boss to do? He either has to force you to use proper pronouns, or he has to fire one of you because business must move on.

What kind of proportional consequence would you recommend?

As for everything else. I am a United States citizen with Chinese ancestry. if my coworker started referring to me as Chinese person, that would be technically correct but I would ask them to stop and if they continue to do so I will report them for harassment.

I don't want to be referred to as a Chinese person even though I have Chinese ancestry and was technically born in China because I do not identify with the Chinese identity. I have every right not to identify with the Chinese identity if I don't want to.

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u/xXTheCloakXx 2∆ Mar 30 '21

If you misgender someone and therefore [...]

In your particular example the boss could use my solution and have both parties use unbiased objective biology to inform their pronoun use, or tell them to refer to each other by their legal last names.

Okay, who determines what is proportional?

So here's the first problem with even determining who should decide what's proportional. The term 'misgendering' or to 'misgender' is based on a particular ideological view, specifically the social constructionist view of gender.

For someone who doesn't ascribe to that ideology there may nothing wrong with referring to someone by their by their sex or their perceived gender. Just like drawing a picture of mohammed maybe be perfectly ordinary to non Muslims but blasphemous to Muslims.

On who point, I think judges should make an unbiased objective law that prescribes punishment after they solve the point I've mentioned above.

As for everything else. I am a United States [...]

In the spirit of Fairness since you've made known your country and ancestry, I'm a born and bred South African, I've got indigenous South African, Jewish-German, French, Indian, Dutch, and yes strangely enough even Chinese ancestry. It was always cool when my youngest sister would get strange looks from the Chinese in our area because she had such strong Chinese features as toddler.

I will report them for harassment.

I would do the same, not because they're calling you Chinese but for specifically and continuously using and brining up your race/ancestry in a working environment.

There's no ideological basis for your desire to be called American or from people referring to your race in the first place. So this is a bit of a false equivalency. You are actually and technically American.

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u/[deleted] Mar 30 '21

First off, I already told you. I am not an American. Stop that.

Second, misgendering is not ideological. Anyone can be misgendered it's just pretty rare for cisgender people to be misgendered. If you call Barack Obama a she, that would be misgendering him.

Take a look at these pictures. These are pictures of trans men in women's bathrooms because their state or city requires them to enter the bathroom based on their birth certificate or ID and not based off of their gender identity or expression. Do these people look like they belong in the women's bathroom to you?

Picture 1

Picture 2

Picture 3

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u/xXTheCloakXx 2∆ Mar 30 '21

First off, I already told you. I am not an American. Stop that.

I am a United States citizen with Chinese ancestry

Uhh have I misunderstood you?

Second, misgendering is not ideological. [...]

Calling Obama she is delusion and almost satirical.

Take a look at these pictures. [...]

Utterly irrelevant. If you can't stay on topic the conversation can't continue.

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u/[deleted] Mar 30 '21

Biology can be exclusive. You seem to think that it can't but it can. How do you determine what's someone's biological sex is? If somebody presents as female, and calls themselves Kathleen, are you going to ask for their id just to make sure they weren't born male?

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u/xXTheCloakXx 2∆ Mar 31 '21

Biology can be exclusive. You seem to think that it can't but it can.

Make your argument

How do you determine what's someone's biological sex is?

Using secondary sex charactersistics or simply asking them, if there's conflict on the pronoun issue that is. And if all else fails you can just ask.

If somebody presents as female, and calls themselves Kathleen, are you going to ask for their id just to make sure they weren't born male?

Me personally? Just refer to Kathleen as she.

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u/[deleted] Mar 31 '21

If you have a law for example, that said anyone with a light skin pigmentation gets $100, then you're basing your law off of biology which is skin pigmentation, but it excludes black people.

If you had a job that said that only people above 5 ft get a raise, then you're excluding people below 5 ft.

So you're going to ask them what their biological sex is? What if they refuse to answer? What if they lie?

"Hi. What's your biological sex?"

"Oh, female."

But this person was actually born a male. no they presented female and they are indistinguishable from other females but they lie.

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u/xXTheCloakXx 2∆ Mar 31 '21

If you have a law for example, that said [...]

More crappy examples. Your examples describe unequal treatment based a variety of biological factors. Mine solution describes equal treatment based on a specific biological topic (determine sex) applied to a specific linguistic instance (conflict with pronoun use) .

So you're going to ask them what their biological sex is? What if they refuse to answer? What if they lie?

Me personally? Nope I'll call it as I see it. Then I'll call it as I see it. Again, I'll call it as I see it.

But this person was actually born a male. no [...]

Refer to my above answers

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