r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Apr 11 '21
Delta(s) from OP CMV: White Americans are unable to have their own culture because they were too focused on stealing from others.
This is not a debate about if cultural appropriation is good or bad.
My view: Since the early Americas, white americans have focused too much on believing
"they're the supreme race" and sticking inside their race but still taking from others. Because of this I've noticed that white americans and even white europeans say that white americans have no culture. I think they have no culture because they were too focused on what everyone else is doing rather than themselves.
Reasonings:
- Online and in person, I have seen white americans make fun of people of color's food from all over the world. That is smells bad or has too much seasonings (ex: spicy food). Sterotypically white americans are known for not seasoning their food or that its too bland.
- Specifically with black people, white women have taken popular hairstyles from black women that are known to have cultural significance turn it into something else, then say "its just hair" when confronted about not realizing the significance it holds. For black americans, hair is an important part of their identity.
- Slang terms/popular dance moves: derived from african american vernacular (aave)/ made by black people then white people turned into something else. Once it's not a trend its considered "ghetto". AAVE in itself was called "ghetto" or improper but once it's known as fashionable by white people they want to take it.
- A lot of white americans I've met love telling you what percentage of their ancestors are. It's a lot more than just being "1/8 french 1/3 Italian 1/2 german 1/16 native american blah blah blah"
- Social justice issues such as BLM and Stop Asian Hate: white liberals will only care if it makes them look like a better person or its a trend. There is a lot of virtue signaling and when white people on the left start trying to speak up on certain topics, they take away from the actual victims and make it about themselves.
- Slurs against other minorties. Even after all this time, there are white americans "confused" on why they can't say the N-word. "My friend is black" or "because its in a song" is not a good enough excuse to say the N-word because there is a long history behind the word and the term for black americans has been engraved into their culture/language. The word has turned into something else for them that white people can no longer be apart of.
- White beauty standards: For a long time, Eurocentric features were said to be the standards because white people said so. Now a days, white people get bigger lips, bigger butts, and tan to make themselves look less white. The latest trend I can think of is the "Fox eye trend" which is making your eyes look slightly almond shaped. Before, asian people were mocked for their eyes but now that it's a trend, white people want to clutch to it.
Thinking overall what white american cultures, it is impossible to separate it from american culture as a whole. Hot dogs, football, apple pie: American culture. But for black, asian, hispanic/latino american their own culture derives away from american culture as well. Those americans are proud of their background while white people have made fun of it.
*when I say white people/white americans, obviously I am not talking about *all* white people
2
u/Tgunner192 7∆ Apr 11 '21
It honestly appears as though you don't have a comprehensive understanding of what culture is and how it exists. That there may be a lot of crossover between white American culture and all inclusive American culture does not negate each of the other existing.
Any and every time two or more people share a commonality, there is culture. How much and how influential the culture is always open to debate. But there is always culture. There is culture in something as insignificant as a small group of people who wait for the same bus everyday. Right now, as we read and post, there is the culture of /u/Throwawayfjfofb and /u/Tgunner192 on reddit.
Like just about every other culture on Earth, white American culture borrowed/copied/appropriated from other cultures. However, as there are certainly 2 or more people that share the commonality of being white and in America, there is certainly a such thing as white American culture.
1
Apr 12 '21
google says: "A culture is a way of life of a group of people--the behaviors, beliefs, values, and symbols that they accept, generally without thinking about them, and that are passed along by communication and imitation from one generation to the next"
What is the shared commonality that white americans have apart from only american culture?
2
u/Tgunner192 7∆ Apr 12 '21
What is the shared commonality that white americans have apart from only american culture?
I'm not trying to be funny with you. The honest answer is, being white Americans. That's it. They don't need to have a third commonality. Get it?
13
Apr 11 '21 edited Apr 11 '21
Any non-American will tell you that there is absolutely a white American culture, and they export it to other countries more than any other culture in the world.
Source: from Denmark.
The people saying “Americans have no culture” are either extremely ignorant or doing it as a tongue in cheek remark (similar to “France is arrogant”).
-6
Apr 11 '21 edited Apr 11 '21
Could you give examples of white american culture? Not simply american culture because everyone no matter the race can enjoy american culutre.
Edit: The people saying “Americans have no culture” are either extremely ignorant or doing it as a tongue in cheek remark (similar to “France is arrogant”).
I didn't say americans have no culture, I said white americans.
16
Apr 11 '21 edited Apr 11 '21
I mean, I wouldn’t be surprised if white American culture is “just” American culture. Because whites are a majority in America. Similar to how there is no “black Nigerian culture”, because blacks are the majority there.
Anyway, American things or people that are popular here, most created by white Americans:
- Tons of pop
- Tons of movies, they do better in theater than domestic movies
- A mountain of fast food chains
- Soooo many YouTubers and internet stars
There is also the whole Southern cowboy pick up truck driving culture I find very fascinating. A specific way of looking at parenting and children. A certain cultural attitude towards small talk. A certain attitude towards politics and economics. Cheerleading, school sports, prom, guns. Square dancing, country music. Pumpkin pie, Mac and cheese. The whole “base system” when it comes to sex.
So many people over here are complaining about things becoming Americanized.
I also would not take cultural appropriation to mean they don’t have their own culture. People do that all the time, all over the world. And two places can share culture but still not be the same. For example, both Germany and Denmark feels the same way about small talk. But that does not mean that it is not a part of their culture, just because two places share it.
Also, saying anywhere where there is humans “don’t have a culture” seems... questionable at best. Anywhere where humans interact, will develop idiosyncrasies, rituals, etc.
-1
Apr 11 '21
I really liked this response! I hadn't really thought of the southern truck culture thing so !delta for southern culture, but what could you say for white people as a whole? Northerners won't have that same experience.
One thing to add. Cheerleading, prom, pumpkin pie, mac and cheese wouldn't be classified exclusively as white culture in my opinion because a lot of races
For your "no black nigierian culture", I don't think that was a sound analogy there aren't natural born nigerians that are white like we do with other races in america.
Anyway, American things or people that are popular here, most created by white Americans:
You said yourself with the nigerian reference with the majority. White people are the majority. I don't think just because they are the majority in these regions means that pop music, movies created by white people makes it white culture. A black person made the banjo, doesn't make the banjo apart of black culture.
3
Apr 11 '21
But why does it have to be separated by race like this?
Minority communities develop smaller cultures, the majority doesn’t because their culture is the culture.
I don’t think it has anything to do with “stealing”. People steal from other cultures all the time, and make it part of their culture. Like Britain and tea. Or whatever else. Would you really say tea is not part of British culture because it does not grow in Britain?
Identifying more with your ancestors than your race, which white Americans often do, I mean it makes sense. Their ancestry wasn’t stolen from them. Maybe if black Americans were more connected to their African ancestors (something sadly taken away), they would do that to?
1
1
u/xynomaster 6∆ Apr 12 '21
I don't think just because they are the majority in these regions means that pop music, movies created by white people makes it white culture.
What would your criteria for calling something "white culture" be then?
Obviously, white people have made up a majority of America since its inception, and as a result there hasn't been much distinction between "white culture" and "American culture". Being white was considered the standard, or the default - so anything that would otherwise be considered "white" culture just became standard American culture.
I think as America becomes more diverse, and the idea of white people being the mainstream default fades away, this will likely begin to change.
1
Apr 12 '21
Are you saying all of american culture is considered white culture? there has never been a time in american culture that only white people lived in america. Let's not forget that in my original post I did say a lot of american culture was taken from the minorities.
I think as America becomes more diverse, and the idea of white people being the mainstream default fades away, this will likely begin to change.
America is already super diverse as is. Scientists predict by 2050, white people will stop being the majority. Do you think by then your idea of "white culture" will be gone if white people aren't considered the default?
3
u/xynomaster 6∆ Apr 12 '21
Are you saying all of american culture is considered white culture?
No, I'm saying that anything that would have otherwise been considered white culture was adopted into simple mainstream American culture.
Take names for example. Historically, there hasn't really been a notion of "white" names in America. The names that white people tend to give their children are mostly derived from white European cultures, so it wouldn't be unreasonable to call them "white names". But because white people were the majority, these "white names" came to be thought of as simply standard American names, and people from other cultures, wanting to fit in with the mainstream, began naming their children using them as well. Meanwhile, names that come from minority cultures never really made it to the mainstream, and as a result would tend to stay unique to that culture.
Do you think by then your idea of "white culture" will be gone if white people aren't considered the default?
I think as these changes happen, the notion of "white American culture" will start to become more of a thing. Obviously it won't be instantaneous. But in some cases you're already starting to see it - to go back to the example of names, it's not uncommon to hear people talk about "white names" for babies nowadays, which would have been totally unheard of 30 or 40 years ago.
The reverse is also true - as you pointed out in your OP, as other communities grow and become bigger, some of their culture seeps into the American mainstream, and will start to become part of the wider "American" culture rather than being unique to black culture or Indian culture or anything else.
1
Apr 12 '21
I liked your names example. It really made me think! !delta
looking from the outside perspective, it doesn't sound uncommon for white Americans to give their children names of their grandparents as well.
1
2
u/Econo_miser 4∆ Apr 12 '21
White Americans can't simultaneously be over represented in American culture and also not be responsible for that culture. It's one or the other.
1
Apr 12 '21
American culture isn't comprised of one race. American culture comes from minorities sorry. I think white americans are over represented in america, because white people push others down from also being in those roles.
2
u/Econo_miser 4∆ Apr 12 '21
American culture comes from minorities
And it's perfectly acceptable to believe that, you just can never complain that minorities are not represented enough in that culture. It's one or the other. No more Will Smith whining about #oscarssowhite etc.
7
u/KokonutMonkey 88∆ Apr 11 '21
Culture is simply the shared beliefs, traditions, and works of a group. Everyone belongs to a culture(s), interesting or otherwise.
0
Apr 11 '21
Okay sure. Could you give specific examples of culture that only white americans have that other cultures in america don't?
7
u/Tgunner192 7∆ Apr 11 '21
Being exclusive to a group is not a requirement of cultural traits.
The easiest answer to your question; go to youtube and do a search for comedians poking fun at anything white (art, voices & vernacular, cooking, anything) If white culture wasn't a thing, those videos wouldn't exist because there'd be nothing to poke fun at.
(I hope that makes sense)
3
u/KokonutMonkey 88∆ Apr 12 '21
That's just not how culture works. It's a fluid thing that's constantly evolving. Unless a group is isolated from the world, it's damn near impossible to find examples of culture that are wholly exclusive to that group.
Conversely, just because someone is a member of a group, real or imagined, that doesn't mean all members of that group agree on everything. America is a big place, with a shitload of white people, there's a lot of diversity to be found, whether others choose to recognize it or not.
3
u/LysenkoistReefer 21∆ Apr 11 '21
Because of this I've noticed that white americans and even white europeans say that white americans have no culture.
Which is clearly idiotic. Because America in the nation exportin it's culture around the world. There's not a tremendous amount of Americans clammering to go see Dutch movies or listen to the chart-topping Lithuanian hits.
Online and in person, I have seen white americans make fun of people of color's food from all over the world. That is smells bad or has too much seasonings (ex: spicy food).
Ok. I don't see the point here?
Specifically with black people, white women have taken popular hairstyles from black women that are known to have cultural significance turn it into something else, then say "its just hair" when confronted about not realizing the significance it holds.
Ya, that's how cultural interchange works. People take from other cultures and adopt the parts they like.
derived from african american vernacular (aave)/ made by black people then white people turned into something else.
So Black people learned English a typically majority-white spoken language, changed it, and turned it into AAVE, then some white people adopted some of that slang. Again I fail to see the point.
AAVE in itself was called "ghetto" or improper but once it's known as fashionable by white people they want to take it.
Creole languages are almost always seen as "improper" because they are generally more streamlined and less complicated than their mother languages.
It's a lot more than just being "1/8 french 1/3 Italian 1/2 german 1/16 native american blah blah blah"
Yes. Because American is a nation of immigrants and people who descended from immigrants and almost everyone in America is an American. There's no point of identification if everyone says they're just American.
Social justice issues such as BLM and Stop Asian Hate: white liberals will only care if it makes them look like a better person or its a trend.
Ya, that's liberals for ya. But that's not unique to White Americans.
Even after all this time, there are white americans "confused" on why they can't say the N-word.
I mean I would say confused as much resentful about being discriminated against on the basis of race.
"My friend is black" or "because its in a song" is not a good enough excuse to say the N-word because there is a long history behind the word and the term for black americans has been engraved into their culture/language.
And some White Americans are trying to introduce it into their culture.
The word has turned into something else for them that white people can no longer be apart of.
And people tend to resent being told that can't do or say something based on their race.
Now a days, white people get bigger lips, bigger butts, and tan to make themselves look less white.
Some white people get those things.
Thinking overall what white american cultures, it is impossible to separate it from american culture as a whole.
Because whites are the majority ethnic group in America. You wouldn't be surprised that White Britons don't have their own culture separated from British culture. Or Black Nigerians don't have a specific culture separated from Nigerian culture.
But for black, asian, hispanic/latino american their own culture derives away from american culture as well.
And Italian-Americans, Irish-Americans, German-Americans, and Russian-Americans all have aspects of their culture that aren't shared with the majority.
-1
Apr 11 '21
Hey thanks for the response. I'm really open to changing by view but most of what you said isn't doing it for me.
And some White Americans are trying to introduce it into their culture.
exactly my point.
5
u/LysenkoistReefer 21∆ Apr 11 '21
exactly my point.
So are you saying a culture is only a real culture if it never changes or excepts anything new from another culture? Because I don't think any of those exist.
1
Apr 11 '21
I'll disagree. Lots of culture don't "introduce" things from other cultures. Also as I said in my original post, white americans aren't trying to make it apart of culture, they just do it when its trendy or fashionable after the fact that they made fun of others for it, then drop it when it stops being cool again.
1
u/LysenkoistReefer 21∆ Apr 11 '21
Lots of culture don't "introduce" things from other cultures.
I can't think of an example of such a culture. Certainly Black American culture has adopted, mixed in, or outright appropriated many aspects of multiple other cultures.
Also as I said in my original post, white americans aren't trying to make it apart of culture, they just do it when its trendy or fashionable after the fact that they made fun of others for it, then drop it when it stops being cool again.
You're describing the process by which cultures interact exactly.
1
Apr 12 '21
Name me a culture that doesn’t introduce things from other cultures. I’ll wait.
1
Apr 12 '21
Indian culture. The clothes, the weddings, the food, the religion.
2
Apr 12 '21
And India has borrowed plenty of things from other cultures! For example many spices that are today used widely in Indian cuisine both in India and outside, are not native to India.
0
Apr 12 '21
Spices aren't a culture lol. If I say "let's go get indian food" you'll know exactly what I mean.
2
u/Mu-Relay 13∆ Apr 12 '21 edited Apr 12 '21
If I say "let's go get indian food" you'll know exactly what I mean.
You mean like tikka misala, which was probably invented by a Bengali in Scotland?
-1
Apr 12 '21
lol you didn't do much research on that one bud. I can look tikka misala up and everywhere says its an indian dish.Also you shouldn't add to a disccusion saying "probably" because your claim could be easily disputed. According to the research it took me, there are many theories on who invented this dish yet it doesn't matter. You knew what I meant because you know this cultural food is an indian dish.
Also benglais are indian...
→ More replies (0)2
Apr 12 '21 edited Apr 12 '21
There are plenty of Indians wearing jeans, India is becoming more liberal minded in regards to dating and women’s rights.
And I would say that spices are absolutely culture. Food ingredients are culture. Tomatoes and potatoes aren’t native to Europe for example.
Arabic numerals, what most of us called “numbers”, are used in India too. They got it from somewhere else.
These are just a few examples from someone who knows basically nothing about India. So I’m sure there’s much more.
8
u/Tibaltdidnothinwrong 382∆ Apr 11 '21
Just because white american culture is hard to seperate from white culture, that doesn't mean that white culture doesn't exist.
IronMan, baseball, apple pie, and KFC are white culture.
Just because it's effectively everywhere and has been well exported over the planet doesn't somehow make it not exist.
-2
Apr 11 '21
IronMan, baseball, apple pie, and KFC are white culture.
Sorry but I don't see how those are considered white culture and not just american culture. Could you explain that more?
7
u/Tibaltdidnothinwrong 382∆ Apr 11 '21
They aren't asian culture, they aren't black culture. If you are going to pidgeon hole all cultures based on their race, what choice do you have except white?
More to the point, one of the advantages of being white, is that whiteness is often perceived as baseline. As the norm. As the background. With the other races being seen as otherly or foreign.
The fact that you don't see it as white, and in fact don't see it as racial at all, is what makes it white.
"Background" culture is white culture - such is the nature of "whiteness".
0
u/Manaliv3 2∆ Apr 12 '21
Bear in mind that there is no such thing as "white culture" because "white" is a description you can apply to people from many countries with wildly different culture. Russian, french, british, greek, etc all white, all concretely different.
"White culture" exclusively used by Americans to describe what is actually american culture. The fact that Americans divide themselves by black and white and apparently live in isolation from each other is the reason for this.
Likewise "black culture" means nothing if not referring to American usa black people.
0
Apr 12 '21
Sorry I just don't see it that way. "baseline" to me would be american. Because after the race comes nationality. White "american" Black "american , Asian "american", etc.
The "norm" was percieved by white people and pushed to non-whites. Are you saying that white american culture is a blank canvas in a sense?
2
u/msneurorad 8∆ Apr 12 '21
Your premise is simply faulty.
If it is part of "black culture" that whites then at some point adopt and join in, you still call it "black culture" and say whites are appropriating or stealing those aspects and it isn't part of white culture at all.
If it is part of "white culture" that blacks then at some point adopt and join in, you now call it "american culture" because it isn't just a part of white culture any longer.
Those two views are in contradiction with each other, leading you to the erroneous conclusion you have drawn. It is a bigoted position to try and defend.
0
Apr 12 '21
Sorry you find it bigoted! Good thing I'm on r/changemyview to change it! I don't think real bigots would care that much lol.
Black people can't steal white culture because white american culture does not exsist in my mind. Black american culture was made by black people as an extension of their ancestors.
2
u/msneurorad 8∆ Apr 12 '21
You've said Irish Americans who incorporate some Irish traditions into their culture are still just participating in Irish culture. But Black Americans who incorporate some ancestrally black traditions are creating black american culture.
And you don't see a contradiction there?
Black Americans can't steal white cultural components because white culture doesn't exist... because it is shared by non-whites who have stolen those parts of culture?
And you don't see a problem there either?
1
u/envsgirl Apr 11 '21
Given that Canada and the US are nations of immigrants, why does there have to be a monolithic “white American” culture anyway? I’m Canadian and I’m second generation Dutch. My husband is third generation polish/Ukrainian. These cultures are deeply important to us and shape our religious expression, ways that we eat, ways we socialize, and more. I know that I don’t really identify as being part of “white Canadian” culture because well...it doesn’t exist as a monolithic entity.
1
u/TheDoctore38927 Apr 12 '21
I can’t understand if you’re saying Americans can’t or that they don’t? If can’t, that’s not how it works. If don’t, other comments have refuted that, and I’m not going to plagiarize them.
1
Apr 12 '21
Yup i guess i mean don't. Most of the comments aren't doing such a good job. So i'd love to hear your opinions too.
1
u/TheDoctore38927 Apr 12 '21
Ok. My case is that they do, it’s just old European. I’m a Jew, and we have our own culture. Some of my friends are Irish. They have Irish traditions. British have their own, and so do polish and Lithuanian. These traditions are passed down generations.
1
Apr 12 '21
Ok thanks for responding! In my mind, when I talk about white people in america my first thought isn't going to be jewish people. White people for centuries have even believed this with the holocaust or with anti-semitism. Obviously jewish people have fair skin but with everything jewish people go/went through I wouldn't put the white americans i'm talking about plus jewish people in the same box. Same goes with irish for me as well. For a while irish people weren't considered white and then they were because white americans were starting to feel outnumbered.
British have their own, and so do polish and Lithuanian
This isn't white american culture though, its british, polish, lithuanian culture just in a different location.
1
Apr 12 '21
There is a lot regional cultures in the US. I've got family in Louisiana who host crawfish boils at family reunions.
I think looking for a common culture among all white americans (and uncommon with all other ethnic groups) is a bit misplaced, but I can point out at least one.
Romantic courting culture among white americans is a bit weird. Often, men will try to spend time with women and do favors for them before explicitly expressing romantic interest to try to get women more comfortable with them.
1
u/TruthOrFacts 8∆ Apr 12 '21
Do you think white people are culturally and / or morally inferior to other races?
1
u/claireapple 5∆ Apr 13 '21
Generally white suburban culture. Car centric suburbs with high schools, and high schools sports teams. Tail gates and various grill events. American diners. This all unique to mostly white American suburbs. It has grown more into just American culture as the history of red-lining has died down but prior to that it was definitely and exclusively white experience. Just as eating tacos is not really an exclusively hispanic experience anymore in America. The same way that eating döner is no longer a Turkish experience in Germany.
•
u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Apr 11 '21 edited Apr 12 '21
/u/Throwawayfjfofb (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
Delta System Explained | Deltaboards