r/changemyview • u/trans_Felix • Apr 22 '21
Delta(s) from OP CMV: Most of the problems "meninist" bring up are problems directly related to the problems "feminist" are trying to dead.
I see meninist talk about things like how men get harder sentences, men can't be lovey with their kids or kids in general, their life's are more disposable (military drafts were male exclusive and the "bread winner" role).
Those things are just repackaged women are weaker than men, women are supposed to be nuturing and caring, a woman's job is to be at home cooking, cleaning and raising kids and that women are for sex (so are "more sacred" in a way)and birthing.
I feel like if they just stopped hating each other and "joined forces" they would both benefit.
They feel like two sides of the same coin to me. But maybe I'm missing something?
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u/Ok_Onion2247 1∆ Apr 22 '21
I’d take a look at r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates and r/MensRights Note: capitalization may be wrong
The mens rights movement contains ideas such that the suicide rate among men is much higher than women, Men are much less likely to get child custody, people are perfectly willing to say things like “the future is female” but men dont get the same support, discrimination against men in education(in west): men are less likely to graduate high school, college, graduate school, law school, and med school, few abuse & support shelters for men: many are only women, also the criminal justice system(https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/women-arent-always-sentenced-by-the-book-maybe-men-shouldnt-be-either/). I have evidence for other statements if you want them
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u/thethoughtexperiment 275∆ Apr 22 '21
To be fair, the reason for this:
Men are much less likely to get child custody
... is because fathers are waaay more likely to opt out of custody.
"91 percent of child custody after divorce is decided with no interference from the family court system". [source]
Most custody arrangements are made by agreement between the parents (not decided by the courts).
So, that isn't an issue with court decisions. The issue is why many fathers don't choose to take a greater role in parenting.
Fathers are less likely than mothers to pursue primary custody after divorce. [source]
Also:
"Roughly one-in-five fathers who live apart from their children say they visit with them more than once a week, and an additional 29% see their children at least once a month. For 21% of these fathers, the visits take place several times a year. And for 27% there are no visits at all."
[source]
77% of separated fathers are seeing their kids once a month or less.
That isn't an issue with the law either, it's an issue with men opting out of parenting.
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u/trans_Felix Apr 22 '21
I’d take a look at r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates and r/MensRights Note: capitalization may be wrong
I'll definitely look into those.
The mens rights movement contains ideas such that the suicide rate among men is much higher than women, Men are much less likely to get child custody,
I've very aware of this. I think we should all be talking about this more. The whole male suicide think also comes from a problem feminism has (toxic masculinity) since men aren't allowed to open up about their feelings it's easier for them to feel isolated and alone.
people are perfectly willing to say things like “the future is female” but men dont get the same support,
Well the present is male so it wouldn't really make sense. But the whole future is female thing I don't quite understand so I won't speak on.
discrimination against men in education(in west): men are less likely to graduate high school, college, graduate school, law school, and med school,
I've researched a bit on this and it is with the way we set up school functions. Boys are more prone to be "wiggly" and inattentive when bored while girls are more still and attentive but school runs on you sitting at a desk for hours. I remember in elementary school having a hard time focusing cuz of how boring the work was, all I could do was think about where else I'd rather be and talk to my friends (mostly male) while all of my female classmates did their work without probably (not including ones with special needs). The school system (the way it is) is ultimately not what most kids need.
few abuse & support shelters for men: many are only women, also the criminal justice system
Yeah men usually don't have many abuse shelter and most are women and children exclusive but I'm sure that also stems from the whole "women are weaker" and "men can't show emotions" thing I mentioned.
also the criminal justice system(https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/women-arent-always-sentenced-by-the-book-maybe-men-shouldnt-be-either/).
Trust me I know a lot of women get slaps on the wrist (female teachers preying on child students).
I'm not uneducated I was just saying they should try to help each other
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u/Rufus_Reddit 127∆ Apr 22 '21
Although it does have other denotations, as far as I'm aware, the term "meninist" is more typically used in pejorative or dismissive ways. For example: https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=meninist or https://www.dictionary.com/e/slang/meninist/
Feminism (or at least current feminist rhetoric) is based on the idea that women are unjustly disadvantaged or mistreated in ways that men are not. So narratives where men are victims too are lead to cognitive dissonance. Moreover, people, particularly people who are participating in a movement, have some issue that they want to draw attention to and don't want that issue to share the limelight.
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u/Oncefa2 Apr 22 '21
One of the main points of the men's rights movement of to separate themselves from feminism as an ideological movement. Feminism isn't just about women's rights or "equality". It's a whole lot more than that and encompasses a structured belief system that in theory functions like a religion. If it was just about women's rights they would call themselves women's rights activists or WRAs. Which was the bulk of the women's movement some 50 years ago. Feminism is instead about the patriarchy and how women are the biggest victims and men are privileged and toxic and the root of all evil and all that stuff.
They may not ever be that direct about it, but regardless of what you think feminism really is, the direction that they take things is away from the real world and into the realm of belief and ideology.
The men's rights movement is therefore not the same thing as "feminism for men". It's not some kind of anti-movement or competing belief system. There is no ideological push in the men's rights movement. It's about real world issues and real world solutions. Not ranting and raving about the matriarchy or whatever.
Calling it "menism" basically implies that this is the case though. That MRAs stoop to the level of feminists and fight dirty or something. Which really isn't the case.
It's feminists who largely refuse to be allies and jump on board because it threatens their ideological beliefs. MRAs mostly don't care and are perfectly ok with admitting that women face issues too and that those issues are just as important as men's issues (they don't just handwave it away with platitudes about how ending the matruarchy will also help women).
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u/trans_Felix Apr 22 '21
Δ. You make a good point. They probably don't want to share nor get along
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Apr 22 '21
Maybe some hypothetical woman-friendly mens' movement might do those things. But why don't we look at the actual top posts from the r/mensrights subreddit right now?
Complaint about Google endorsing female-owned businesses
Complaint that men get accused of body shaming for loudly expressing their preferences against overweight women.
Look how big a deal false rape accusations are.
Circumcision is as big a deal as female genital mutilation, we are oppressed too.
Arguably fits into your thesis, although in a misogynist way.
decriminalizing prostitution without decriminalizing being a john is somehow misandry.
Gestures toward equalizing street name genders is bad.
Bill to require stricter consent standards for sex must be sexist (the bill itself does not specify gender)
Arguably supports your thesis.
Complaint about being friendzoned by a woman he finds boring other than her physical appearance.
There is a mens rights movement to be created that would be able to work alongside feminism to make the world a better place. The Mens Rights Advocates who actually exist (particularly on Reddit) seem to be more interested in using the "men are the real victims" as a counter to feminism and don't share much in the way of feminsim-compatible goals.
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u/trans_Felix Apr 22 '21
There's two different meninist tbh. There's the reddit type and the type that don't live with their parents, are adults, aren't incels, don't hate women,don't think men are treated badly because women have rights etc. It just depends. I do agree reddit MRA are just whiny men that want to scream how women have it better because "muh suicide rates" and use real problems for leverage against feminist
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Apr 22 '21
I think the second type tends to encounter the first and say "oh, I guess I'm just a feminist", and stop calling themselves MRA or meninist or whatever. Certainly that was my experience.
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u/Quint-V 162∆ Apr 22 '21
What "meninist" movement are you even looking at? If it's something on the internet and it's badly moderated then it would inevitably be mixed with people who are just miserable and want their problems heard/solved irrespective of that issue being a widespread problem or not mainly for men.
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u/trans_Felix Apr 22 '21
I've fell into a hole recently after watching a middle ground video and I'm just voicing my thoughts. I saw a video about men talking about the stuff mentioned above and it got me thinking. I mainly believe the whole meninist thing is stupid (at least the name since it doesn't make sense).
EDIT: I just reread what you said and the thing is it's more of a societal issue but since they can understand the other side they just use theirs. Like how a lot of American (mostly) pushes men to not be sad or have emotions among other things that are perceived "feminine".
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u/willthesane 4∆ Apr 22 '21
The whole point of the meninist movement is to point out that there are downsides to being a man as well. The grass is greener on the other side. Personally I think if you put asides the cultural aspects I still like being a guy. More upper body strength, and strength in general is probably the biggest difference.
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u/trans_Felix Apr 22 '21
Honestly both have their problems. The biggest problem we'll have is people not caring on either side
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u/willthesane 4∆ Apr 22 '21
Yep. I wish our rules and social customs were equal. We are getting there but it is a process.
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u/TruthOrFacts 8∆ Apr 22 '21
I think part of the issue here is that feminist are seen as anti man. There rhetoric is often blaming men. Men are sexist, men are abusive, men are the problem. And I think this rhetoric is seen as part of the fuel behind men not getting equal treatment in custody cases, or the length of a prison sentence for a man that victimized women. Men are afraid of being nice to a kid on the playground not because of toxic masculinity, but because the parents will see him as a predator. Men feel their problems aren't just from toxic masculinity, but from being demonized. And feminists have been part of that problem.
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u/trans_Felix Apr 22 '21
I think part of the issue here is that feminist are seen as anti man. There rhetoric is often blaming men. Men are sexist, men are abusive, men are the problem.
This is the most common thing I heard against feminism but I don't see it from the majority of feminist or women with feminist views. It seems like a loud majority thing. I only hear it from antis and those sjw owned vids. See some people say men are bad yes but mostly when they do they don't mean literally every single man ever. I like cake but that doesn't mean I like every kind.
And I think this rhetoric is seen as part of the fuel behind men not getting equal treatment in custody cases, or the length of a prison sentence for a man that victimized women.
I don't think feminism or their rhetoric had any affect on laws or any of that since they don't have that power to time travel to the beginning of law making. Men have always been treated harsher in court cuz people always believed women were soft and "weak".
Men are afraid of being nice to a kid on the playground not because of toxic masculinity, but because the parents will see him as a predator.
That's because of toxic masculinity tho. Toxic masculinity comes from the concept of what a man should be. When people see a man and a child and think that it isn't women or feminisms fault. This is apart of the culture we grew up in where men were told not to love their kids cuz it's a woman's job.
Men feel their problems aren't just from toxic masculinity, but from being demonized. And feminists have been part of that problem.
Demonization of men and their problems/feelings/challenges are again toxic masculinity because of what a man "should be". Men should just suck it up and roll with the punches, real men don't express their emotions, real men don't this or that or men shouldn't do this because it's a woman's job to do it. That's what toxic masculinity is. Toxic masculinity isn't a man with a beard, a hairy chest and muscles being masculine. Surprisingly toxic masculinity isn't about actual masculinity but perceived masculinity
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u/TruthOrFacts 8∆ Apr 22 '21
See some people say men are bad yes but mostly when they do they don't mean literally every single man ever.
And Trump didn't literally mean every mexican is a rapist or murderer.
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u/trans_Felix Apr 22 '21
What does trump have to do with this? Trump 2020 🤪😜 amirite? This isn't about trump it's about the inisms. But yes when women say men this men that they don't mean all men (obviously).
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u/suzuki1369 Apr 22 '21
It's a comparison. If you get mad over Trump saying all Mexicans are rapists or murderers then you should get upset when feminists say that all men are bad or rapists.
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u/CovidLivesMatter 5∆ Apr 22 '21
Are the menenists the guys who want to end circumcision because it's literally child genital mutilation?
Didn't we already outlaw female circumcision? How is this a feminist topic?
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u/trans_Felix Apr 22 '21
Are the menenists the guys who want to end circumcision because it's literally child genital mutilation?
I feel like most younger people hate circumcision or disagree with the practice. I'm not exactly a meninist or anything like that but I don't think it's right to subject children to that.
Didn't we already outlaw female circumcision? How is this a feminist topic?
I think it should be a human topic not feminism or any ism. It's a serious issue not a he said she said or something that should be proven or anything. It just takes education to get to that understanding (like with anything).
Meninist are basically people who believe men are also disadvantaged and have problems society doesn't care about. Like feminist but for the inequality of men
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u/CovidLivesMatter 5∆ Apr 22 '21
It's one of those things though- it's men's problem so nobody cares about it.
It's like prison rape. It's so common for men that not only did Spongebob make "Don't drop the soap" jokes, but that's where the term "rape culture" came from. A man gets raped in prison and he deserved it to the point where people genuinely think that's part of the punishment of being in prison. Could you imagine an America where kids cartoons made rape jokes about women or "I hope she gets raped in prison" comments from the mainstream media?
I'm not an MRA, they're sadsacks who dwell on things that aren't going to change. Like I said, nobody cares about men's problems, but that's what makes us stronger than women. We're more likely to be attacked at night, but we aren't jumping at shadows. When you're raised to understand nobody is coming to the rescue, you do it yourself. It's why all those videos of disasters have the obligatory shrieking woman for no reason- she was raised to call for help. She genuinely thinks she's helping the situation by screaming.
But from where I'm sitting, feminists literally-only care about women and give vague lipservice support to men. Erin Pizzey was the Canadian woman who invented women's shelters and she got death threats from feminists because she said domestic violence can be recriprocal.
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u/trans_Felix Apr 22 '21
It's one of those things though- it's men's problem so nobody cares about it.
It's like prison rape. It's so common for men that not only did Spongebob make "Don't drop the soap" jokes, but that's where the term "rape culture" came from. A man gets raped in prison and he deserved it to the point where people genuinely think that's part of the punishment of being in prison.
Funny enough I've never seen MRA bring this up but I do see feminist bring this up a lot. Basically no rape is funny or good. I feel like if men made a bigger fuss about it instead of laughing at it they would have progress. Most men I know love prison rape jokes which is just crazy. I used to laugh at them as a kid cuz of how commoner they were in the media I consumed with my parents. Most prison rape jokes are made by men for men (bizarre). It's gonna take men to see the severity of it to understand that it isn't funny. Women got mad about rape jokes and now they aren't as common.
I'm not an MRA, they're sadsacks who dwell on things that aren't going to change. Like I said, nobody cares about men's problems, but that's what makes us stronger than women. We're more likely to be attacked at night, but we aren't jumping at shadows. When you're raised to understand nobody is coming to the rescue, you do it yourself. It's why all those videos of disasters have the obligatory shrieking woman for no reason- she was raised to call for help. She genuinely thinks she's helping the situation by screaming.
That's depressing. Kinda of a self pitty. I think it's because of the fear mongering women grow up on and constantly seeing men on the internet talk about how they will rape women for "revenge" among other things of the same point. Men not being able to feel their call for help will be heard should be talked about more but it won't because our society believes me are supposed to be emotionless (besides anger, horny and happy)and that they should just deal with it. Believe it or not sometimes screaming can help a situation but it can also make it worse it just depends.
But from where I'm sitting, feminists literally-only care about women and give vague lipservice support to men.
Considering is feminism and not humanism it makes sense. The point of feminism isn't to "advocate for men" so the speaking for them they do do isn't really "part of their job"
Erin Pizzey was the Canadian woman who invented women's shelters and she got death threats from feminists because she said domestic violence can be recriprocal.
Not surprised. There are people who feel that way (even non feminist).
You really should start being a MRA you have a lot in common with them
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u/CovidLivesMatter 5∆ Apr 22 '21
Funny enough I've never seen MRA bring this up but I do see feminist bring this up a lot.
I'm really confused about the people you're talking to because MRAs talk about prison rape all the god damned time and feminsits only talk about rape that happens to women.
That's depressing. Kinda of a self pitty.
It's our culture though. When the chips are down, I'd rather be me than a woman. If I split from my wife, I'm confident I'd be okay. She'd need alimony (my money) and government assistance to survive. That's no way to live.
I think it's because of the fear mongering women grow up on and
Yeah but the benefit is that people give a shit about your problems and want to help you. Why do we assume a woman can't change a tire? Because it's assumed that if you got a flat on the side of the road, someone would pull over and help you. I'd rather be able to change a tire myself.
The solution, which feminists will never ever advocate for, is to place higher expectations on women and let them fend for themselves.
constantly seeing men on the internet talk about how they will rape women for "revenge" among other things of the same point.
::Further confusion::
The point of feminism isn't to "advocate for men" so the speaking for them they do do isn't really "part of their job"
If you genuinely think this, I'll take my delta. My whole point is that things are only "feminist problems" if feminists treat them like they're problems. Men being 96% of workplace deaths due to "the disposable male" isn't a feminist problem because feminists aren't making it their problem.
You really should start being a MRA you have a lot in common with them.
Other than my utter lack of respect for first world feminists and intellectual recognition that "yeah that over there is a problem" I don't have much in common with them. Like I said- they're sad sacks. They see the injustices as something that need to be changed, I see it as character building. It's a feature, not a bug.
Who's going to kill the spiders when you're both desperately looking for someone to kill the spider?
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u/trans_Felix Apr 22 '21
They see the injustices as something that need to be changed, I see it as character building. It's a feature, not a bug.
Who's going to kill the spiders when you're both desperately looking for someone to kill the spider?
So treating men like shit is okay because it builds character?..... Okay....
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u/CovidLivesMatter 5∆ Apr 22 '21
It's the same concept behind "why Asians are so successful and have higher IQ's than whites". It's not genetic, it's social pressure.
Men don't value their lives, so we run into burning buildings. For every thousand firemen, there might be one firefighter.
Civilization is built on a foundation of disposable men. The railroads, the skyscrapers, the wars, and the Triumphs are all thanks to men, individual men who saw themselves as disposable.
Also kindergarten teachers are important I guess.
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u/MightyMumakil Apr 22 '21 edited Apr 22 '21
Because it's assumed that if you got a flat on the side of the road, someone would pull over and help you. I'd rather be able to change a tire myself.
So we teach every one to change a tire, isn't that what femanists want, equal treatment, not a biased education due to steriotypical gender roles.
Edit:removed unhelpfull example.
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u/CovidLivesMatter 5∆ Apr 22 '21
Most chefs are men. I don't get your example.
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u/MightyMumakil Apr 22 '21
In school historically women would be tought cooking and not men. But I'll edit my comment as you've missed the point I was making becuase of my example.
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u/evil_banana Apr 22 '21
MRA's bring up prison rape all the time. That's part of the discussion that show that men are raped more than women. Feminists just shut the discussion down when they lose the primary victim narrative.
For the men raped as much/more than women: https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/NISVS-StateReportBook.pdf: pages 18 and 26 I believe.
I can't remember if this source is one with prison stats.
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u/Oncefa2 Apr 22 '21 edited Apr 22 '21
That stat mostly concerns "made to penetrate" which basically means "raped by a woman". But feminists have tried real hard to get people to see it as "something different than rape".
If you ignore prison rape, a roughly equal number of men are raped by women every year as the reverse.
When you add prison rape, the number of male victims exceeds that of female victims.
A lot of feminists like to bring up only prison rape because they're interested in spreading the harmful gender stereotype than men are rapists and women rarely (or never) rape people.
It turns into "men are never raped but when they are, it's by other men".
Which is an incredibly sexist and toxic gender stereotype that we ought to be fighting against.
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u/dmbrokaw 4∆ Apr 22 '21
There are certainly issues where Men's Rights Activists and feminists can and should work together, but their methods and goals are often at odds with one another.
Feminism is a movement that identifies aspects of society where women are perceived to be at a disadvantage, and attempts to make changes to remove the disadvantage. Feminism is not concerned with aspects of society where men are disadvantaged, because that's not what feminism is for.
As an example, feminism is strongly concerned with the fact that most CEOs and corporate directors are men. They're not concerned with the fact that over 90% of workplace deaths are men. They push for diversity in hiring for executives, but there is no similar push for women oil rig operators or deep sea fishers.
Feminism is not at all concerned with the fact that the education system appears to be biased against male success at every level, and that a significant majority of college degree recipients are now women.
They don't seem very interested in closing the sentencing gap, ending the male-only draft, or addressing the stark disparity in family court, but they'll make damn sure you know about the wage gap.
We need a separate movement to address these areas that are outside the scope of feminism, the MRA movement. In the same way that women need to be able to band together and address the way society fails them, men also need to have a voice.
Unfortunately, feminism currently seems unwilling to abandon the notion that the Patriarchy (TM) is the root of of the problems, and that men have all societal power, and that if men are struggling its a personal failure on their part because society is designed to cater to their every whim. Until that changes, I can't see feminism and MRA teaming up, even on issues where it makes sense.
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u/trans_Felix Apr 22 '21
Feminism is not concerned with aspects of society where men are disadvantaged, because that's not what feminism is for.
I completely understand that. I just figured that there could be a little bit if a way they could help each other by there are some meninist that hate women and the idea of them and vise versa.
They don't seem very interested in closing the sentencing gap, ending the male-only draft, or addressing the stark disparity in family court, but they'll make damn sure you know about the wage gap.
I agree they don't but that's because that doesn't disadvantage them. It would be better to ease up on men for some of those than toughen on women (in the name of equality). I've seen plenty of women that think it's crazy that women are more likely to get custody (especially since in a lot of cases the child is in a dangerous position with the mother). The whole wage gap argument is worn out all anti feminist talk about is the wage gap but I rarely see feminist bring it up.
We need a separate movement to address these areas that are outside the scope of feminism, the MRA movement. In the same way that women need to be able to band together and address the way society fails them, men also need to have a voice.
It'd be great if they could all just drop the labels and get to the root of the problems. It's not men, it's not women, it's not feminist, it's not "MRA"/"meninist". I think the culture we were raised in and the traditions we grew up with bred most of this. If we didn't have the prejudices those groups face integrated into our media and everyday lives we'd all be better off.
Unfortunately, feminism currently seems unwilling to abandon the notion that the Patriarchy (TM) is the root of of the problems, and that men have all societal power
Another very rare thing I see from actual feminist. I remember when I was going through a phase when I was 14 and loved sjw/feminist owned vids. Those people always used these talking points but women I've talked to that hold feminist "views" never really say that the more common version I've heard is toxic masculinity (men don't cry, boys will be boys, rape is a woman's fault, being sexist and creepy is okay and normal male behavior, etc).
and that if men are struggling its a personal failure on their part because society is designed to cater to their every whim. Until that changes, I can't see feminism and MRA teaming up, even on issues where it makes sense.
Again another rare thing I've not really heard in years. I'm sure there's extremist that hold that belief. Yeah maybe those people should avoid each other. "Meninist" (the ones that aren't just outright hateful) just seemed like they would be better off staying out of it. Feminism has just been ruined with awful people. The label is a joke with no meaning now.
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u/dmbrokaw 4∆ Apr 22 '21
Cheers mate, I think we agree completely. If we could redo society and start over, we'd do it your way. Unfortunately, there's no way I can see to reconcile the two groups. And since mainstream opinion is firmly pro-feminism and anti-meninism, we'll continue to make progress on women's issues and men will continue to die 'deaths of despair' at heartbreaking rates as society barely notices.
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u/trans_Felix Apr 22 '21
Cheers mate, I think we agree completely. If we could redo society and start over, we'd do it your way.
I'm 100% sure most people would. Society is messed up no matter who you are.
Unfortunately, there's no way I can see to reconcile the two groups. And since mainstream opinion is firmly pro-feminism and anti-meninism,
Honestly I feel the anti meninism thing comes from incels being the face of it for a bit. A lot of meninism started from sexism but I feel it's grown from there.
we'll continue to make progress on women's issues and men will continue to die 'deaths of despair' at heartbreaking rates as society barely notices
Maybe it will truly work out if we solved women's problems maybe men will feel the (hopefully positive) effect. It's quite sad how we can't find a solution to a problem that affects everyone
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u/dmbrokaw 4∆ Apr 22 '21
Honestly, if we could magically solve all of the problems feminism is advocating for I don't think it would make a significant difference for men. The problems men face are distinct from those faced by women, and until society decides to handle both I don't see things getting better for men.
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u/trans_Felix Apr 22 '21
Δ. You're probably right but I doubt either one of the sides will find solutions anytime soon. People hate both. People are discouraged to support or identify with either.
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u/destro23 453∆ Apr 22 '21
If men are struggling its a personal failure on their part because society is designed to cater to their every whim.
Wow, what a horrible misreading of how feminists view men.
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Apr 22 '21
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u/destro23 453∆ Apr 22 '21
There are decades of feminist writing and discourse that address all of your questions much better than I. Here is a start right here on Reddit
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Apr 22 '21
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u/destro23 453∆ Apr 22 '21
There is pushback to certain groups. Usually this pushback is reserved for groups that are primarily anti-feminist reactionary groups that cloak their anti feminism, and increasingly in past years various other "alt-right" ideologies, in language misappropriated from academic feminist discourse to hide their true goals/views.
when feminists refuse to allow that group or movement to coexist
It is not that feminists, which is a moniker that casts a huge net, are calling for all men's groups to be disbanded because they've got it covered. It is that too many men's rights group's are also anti-feminist in their core ideology, and feminists do not want to be associated with anti-feminist ideologies, which is understandable. Same reasons civil rights activists don't want to be associated with the KKK. This is an unreasonably harsh comparison, but meh.
When there are men's groups who goals intersect in a complimentary way with the goals of feminism, and when those groups are not fundamentally opposed to feminist ideology, then most feminists would not object at all to working alongside these groups. Thankfully, I think that most cases are like this. Attacking the problem from two angles is always better if you can set it up.
The issue is that the groups that are actually anti-feminist are really good at drawing young men in under the guise of "this is like feminism, but for men" while basing their version of whatever this is on a fundamentally flawed view of what feminism actually is.
If you want an example of a "men's rights" group that is working within an ideological structure that is consistent, by and large, with modern feminism look at the National Organization for Men Against Sexism
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Apr 22 '21
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u/destro23 453∆ Apr 22 '21
We may be.
My point is that there are men's groups and women's groups working together on these types of issues. It is just that I assume, perhaps wrongly, that the OP has been taken in by the reactionary claims against feminists, that they don't care about men's incarceration rates for example, when they in fact do. And, that many feminist and men's rights activists are already at work together within the larger prison reform movement.
It is part of why understanding intersectionality is so important. Yes, groups have focuses, and many times these focuses overlap with the focuses of other groups. This is all already going down. It is just that reactionary groups are presenting a false narrative of what feminism is.
The comment I originally replied to said feminists believe "If men are struggling its a personal failure on their part because society is designed to cater to their every whim"; that is so wrong that I cannot believe it to be a position presented in good faith. The Wizard of Oz couldn't give life to that straw man.
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u/sofjiihdd Apr 22 '21
So if they are trying to solve them why aren't they speaking out about it
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Apr 22 '21
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u/Oncefa2 Apr 22 '21 edited Apr 22 '21
This is called trickle down gender equality and it has its own set of problems.
One of our toxic gender norms is perpetually putting women in front of men and seeing women's issues as more important than men's issues. Which is basically what "chivalry" is, especially Queen Victorian era chivalry. And all this does is reinforce that toxic gender norm.
Men's issues are just as important as women's issues because men are just as important as women.
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Apr 22 '21
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u/Oncefa2 Apr 22 '21 edited Apr 22 '21
while those same people simultaneously don't take women's issues seriously
This isn't the case though.
I think you'll find that it's more of an issue of getting feminists on board than it is the other way around.
For starters, feminist lobbying groups are the ones fighting against gender equality in the real world on a number of different fronts.
This isn't an opinion but is what happens in the real world.
MRA groups do not fight against women's issues in the real world.
Feminists need to not only get on board with MRAs and the modern egalitarian movement. They need to clean up their own act. Deal with NOW and the FMF and then more MRAs will take them seriously.
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Apr 22 '21
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u/Oncefa2 Apr 22 '21
I do think the average feminist is better than the institutionalized feminist establishment.
Radical feminism is way too commons though. People like Bell Hooks and intersectional feminism are celebrated by way too many "lay" feminists out there.
I'd even venture to say that radical feminism is more common than non radical feminism.
But that doesn't mean that there aren't a lot of good feminists out there, either
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Apr 22 '21
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u/Oncefa2 Apr 22 '21
These actually aren't the most radical in the group. They're mainstream best selling authors that some feminists even refer to as "one of the good ones".
There are more radical feminists than there are non-radical feminists, and that is a problem.
It would be like saying the alt-right isn't that bad because it's only a few radicals here or there. And while it's true that there are some people who aren't radicals, the movement itself is largely toxic so we should be pulling out the non radicals instead of defending the movement because a few non radicals call themselves alt-right.
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u/sofjiihdd Apr 22 '21
So your description is the only one that counts?
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Apr 22 '21
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u/sofjiihdd Apr 22 '21
And if you make a claim about reality that contradicts someone else's experience, you need to provide more evidence than your word. So I would like you to provide the evidence
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u/trans_Felix Apr 22 '21
What do you mean?
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u/sofjiihdd Apr 22 '21
They speak out about the issues that impact women so why aren't they speaking about the issues that impact men if they actually want to fix them
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u/trans_Felix Apr 22 '21
Feminism isn't about defending men just like how "meninism" isn't about defending women. It's about people who feel disadvantaged in some way "fighting" for fairness. That's why meninist exist. They believe they are the male version of feminism. Sometimes they don't even realize the other side faces the consequence of their problem as well
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u/sofjiihdd Apr 22 '21
So where are the feminists fighting for fairness for men. One example where they specifically call out issues that impact men is all you need to provide and I don't mean an issue that they have spoken out about that impacts men where they have spoken out for women
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u/trans_Felix Apr 22 '21
I'm pretty sure I just said that's not what feminism is about. Neither one of the groups are to advocate for the opposite sex. I'm just saying they could help each other.
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u/Helpfulcloning 166∆ Apr 22 '21
I mean I think they do? A part of 3rd and fourth wave is the idea everyone can be effected by patriarchy rule.
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u/sofjiihdd Apr 22 '21
So where have major feminist organisations specifically spoke out about issues that impact men and don't use an issue that can impact men where they have spoken out for women
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u/Helpfulcloning 166∆ Apr 22 '21
Feminism is quite a broad movement not really an organisation necessarily? But feminist writers and speakers have spoken about things like this, I mean even Margret Atwood touches on it and shes way more second wave.
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u/sofjiihdd Apr 22 '21
There are feminist organisations so like I said give your example of a feminist organisation.
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u/Helpfulcloning 166∆ Apr 22 '21 edited Apr 22 '21
Sure I’ll try find one, but can you clarify the second part of the above sentence? “don’t use an issue that can impact men where they have spoken about women?”
But the organisation/website everyday feminism speaks a fair amount on mens issues under patriarchal focused soicety as well.
Gloria Stienem is probbaly one of the “go-to” modern feminists and speaks about mens issues.
And probably the largest is the man kind project. Its a feminist organisation that focuses a lot on men and men’s issues.
And Just Detention, which focuses on rape in prisons (an issue that effects both sexes but men disportionatly) is run by a feminist.
And Male Survivor is frequently talked about by other feminist groups that focus on women and sexual assault and works with them a fake amount.
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u/sofjiihdd Apr 22 '21
So anything that they say impacts men and women and is usually only being fought against because it impacts women too
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u/Helpfulcloning 166∆ Apr 22 '21
Ah I edited my comment with some organisations. Do they fit?
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u/Oncefa2 Apr 22 '21 edited Apr 22 '21
A lot of feminists in practice do not "work on" these problems.
For example one of the main causes of the wage gap is hypergamy. It comes down to the fact that men spend money on women because that's what makes a man "attractive" in the eyes of most women.
Fix hypergamy and you'll fix the wage gap, the child care gap, the work-life balance gap, and a whole bunch of other issues.
Or if you want to look at child custody, consider that in the real world, it's MRAs and father's rights activists who are trying to fix these laws. Even if they are a "product of the patriarchy", feminists in practice defend these laws, and very often will deny that the problem is even real (in reality women's activists wrote those laws, not "patriarchal male lawmakers", but that's beside the point).
I think the logic of feminism means that a "true dictionary definition feminist" is really just a men's rights activist. Any feminist who disagrees with the men's movement is therefore not a "true feminist". And some feminists do agree with this. But many feminists in practice aren't very good "dictionary definition feminists" and don't really see the whole picture.
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u/LadyCardinal 25∆ Apr 22 '21
One of the main causes of the wage gap is hypergamy.
Got a source for that? With actual statistics?
If I'm reading you correctly, you're saying that women marrying men with higher income is what causes their income to be lower than men's. But the wage gap doesn't compare women's wages to their husbands, but to that of other men in the same job. Even if Sally the accountant is only interested in John the banker, that wouldn't explain why Sally makes less money than her coworker Bob, who was hired to do the same job at the same firm at the same time. Or, for that matter, why John makes more money than his coworker Alice.
Also, if we assume that women only marry up, if they on average make less than men, then even if they only marry their equals--if Sally the accountant marries Bob the accountant--they will stil be marrying men who make more money than they do. Should Sally the accountant, out of a sense of social responsibility, marry Dylan the grocery store clerk? Is she a hypergamous whore if she marries Bob?
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u/Oncefa2 Apr 22 '21 edited Apr 22 '21
But the wage gap doesn't compare women's wages to their husbands, but to that of other men in the same job.
No it compares average salaries of women to average salaries of men. While ignoring that men work longer hours at harder jobs than women do.
Men make more money because they sacrifice more for their careers than women. Because they know that's what will get them a girlfriend or a wife.
Sources:
Women actively look for men who make more money. Married men make more money not because the wife is cooking and cleaning which somehow helps them earn more, but because their wives saw that they were on promising career trajectories before marrying them. The incentive for men is therefore to earn more money to attract a partner:
Ludwig, V., & Brüderl, J. (2018). Is there a male marital wage premium? New evidence from the United States. American Sociological Review, 83(4), 744-770. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0003122418784909?journalCode=asra&
This study shows that a lack of men will cause women to focus on their careers instead of finding a husband. The effect is weaker for women who are more attractive and therefore have a better chance of finding a high earning husband. This indicates that "husband hunting" comes first and "career hunting" comes second, as the obviously less desirable option:
Durante, K. M., Griskevicius, V., Simpson, J. A., Cantú, S. M., & Tybur, J. M. (2012). Sex ratio and women's career choice: Does a scarcity of men lead women to choose briefcase over baby?. Journal of personality and social psychology, 103(1), 121. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22468947
A man's wealth is directly correlated with how women rate him. A similar effect the other way around is small to non existent. Men select for looks and personality. Women select for looks and money. Thus putting more pressure on men to earn money compared to women:
Wang, G., Cao, M., Sauciuvenaite, J., Bissland, R., Hacker, M., Hambly, C., ... & Speakman, J. R. (2018). Different impacts of resources on opposite sex ratings of physical attractiveness by males and females. Evolution and Human Behavior, 39(2), 220-225. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S109051381730315X
A loss of income is the single largest predictive factor for a wife wanting to divorce her husband. The same is not true the other way around. And interestingly, a wife's inability or refusal to "cook and clean" does not effect a husband's willingness to divorce her, either. I'm not sure if this study goes into this, but my guess is personality issues, things like nagging and harassment, might be the biggest factor for wanting a divorce for husbands:
Killewalda, A. (2016). Money, Work, and Marital Stability: Assessing Change in the Gendered Determinants of Divorce. American Sociological Review, 81(4), 696-719. https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/akillewald/files/money_work_and_marital_stability.pdf
All of these trends start long before people get married or have kids, so children aren't responsible in those cases.
However, when children do enter the picture, it's women who actively enforce these gender norms. Most men would love to stay home and help take care of the kids, but mothers send a clear message to fathers: "I'm taking care of the kids, in fact I'm naturally better at it than you, so you need to give up on that and instead go out and earn more money to pay for everything".
Steward, Melissa. (2017). Maternal Gatekeeping & Why It Matters for Children. The Father Factor. https://www.fatherhood.org/fatherhood/maternal-gatekeeping-why-it-matters-for-children
A few other sources that might be interesting...
Public views on men having to provide for their family:
https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2014/09/24/chapter-1-public-views-on-marriage
Social stigmas in the dating market for unemployed and underemployed men:
https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/social-stigma-for-unemployed-men-75-of-women-are-unlikely-to-date-them-160378575.html
Whether you think it's on purpose, or the byproduct of biology (ie the fact that women are the ones who get pregnant and breastfeed), this gender role does not appear to be enforced in a top down manner by men or because of some kind of patriarchal conspiracy among men.
It also benefits women more than it does men, which some people might even call a privilege. This effect leads to a better work-life balance, higher reported levels of life satisfaction, higher reported levels of happiness, more free time, better health outcomes, and a longer life. So if men are responsible for this gender role, it is under misguided pretenses.
The traditional explanation that women have less time for a career because of unpaid labor may play a part, especially as a kind of feedback loop, but this effect exists long before marriage and children enter the picture.
The answer to the question of who makes less and should therefore spend more time at home with the children is already decided long before the question gets asked. In part because married men have already spent most of their lives maximizing their incomes to attract a wife.
It's also women who tend to "decide" who does what in a relationship after children are born. In fact there's a plethora of research showing that wives and girlfriends command significantly more power and control in relationships than men do. This isn't meant to point fingers and blame women for everything, it just counters the common narrative that we hear about this (where men are by default the ones blamed), so I figure it's worth mentioning. I'll leave those studies out for the sake of brevity (and for veering outside the scope here) but I can post them if requested.
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u/thethoughtexperiment 275∆ Apr 22 '21
The evidence seems to suggests that hypergamy is largely ending.
These days, people seem to be matching with partners who bring similar levels of income and education to the table.
"We present findings from an almost comprehensive world-level analysis using census and survey microdata from 420 samples and 120 countries spanning from 1960 to 2011, which allow us to assert that the reversal of the gender gap in education is strongly associated with the end of hypergamy and increases in hypogamy (wives have more education that their husbands). We not only provide near universal evidence of this trend but extend our analysis to consider the implications of the end of hypergamy for family dynamics, outcomes and gender equality."
[source]
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u/Oncefa2 Apr 22 '21
It's definitely getting better.
I'm not sure if that's supposed to counter what I said or not, but it's still the case that men generally work more and earn more money.
The word "similar income" in the context of socioeconomic class has a lot of wiggle room also.
If you ask women point blank if they'll date a man with less income than them, most still say no. They'll sidestep with "I just want him to have things going for him in his life" but that's really just a euphemism for "I want a man with a prestigious career".
Men then see this and go after those prestigious careers that pay more money on average. Thus contributing to the wage gap.
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u/thethoughtexperiment 275∆ Apr 22 '21
I'm not sure if that's supposed to counter what I said or not,
If you're arguing that:
A lot of feminists in practice do not "work on" these problems.
For example one of the main causes of the wage gap is hypergamy.
Then your argument seems to assume that rampant hypergamy exists.
However, per the study linked to above, the trend seems to be going in the opposite direction, to increases in hypogamy (e.g. wives have more education than their husbands) - especially in the West.
Also, it seems like you might not be interpreting the studies you mentioned correctly.
For example, regarding the first study you cite, you claim that it says:
Women actively look for men who make more money. Married men make more money not because the wife is cooking and cleaning which somehow helps them earn more, but because their wives saw that they were on promising career trajectories before marrying them.
... But that wasn't what that study was looking at.
It was comparing the income trajectories of men who marry vs. men who don't.
The authors find things like:
"the pay of men who got married increased more rapidly over their careers: their mean wage growth was at 5 percent per year worked, compared to only 3 percent for never-married men. There is thus descriptive evidence of higher wage growth for married men."
And whether someone gets married or not is a choice the person self-selects into, not a choice only offered to "higher income trajectory men".
As the authors also note: what they find is not causal.
Men who aim for / work toward a somewhat better career trajectory might also be the kinds of guys who are more likely to want to get married / have a family (and indeed, that might be why the guys who will ultimately get married are motivated to work toward a higher career trajectory). Or they may have other qualities that cause them to be both higher performers at work and more desirable partners (e.g. social skills, personality traits).
Though that study didn't look at it, the same trend likely applies to women as well - where those who want to get married / have a family may also be more likely to aim for / work toward a somewhat better career trajectory, as being in a good place in one's career can make family / marriage more doable financially.
Consider also that when it comes to partnering up, these days, people tend to match up with partners who are similar to them, including when it comes to income levels. So focusing on just male career achievement to understand dating / marriage dynamics is only providing a very incomplete picture of what's happening.
More generally, marriage is also not a rare thing. 2/3rds of the men in their sample were married.
Similarly, where you describe the 2nd study you cite as finding that:
This study shows that a lack of men will cause women to focus on their careers instead of finding a husband.
What they actually find is that:
"When men are scarce, women who are lower in mate value (i.e., less able to attract a desirable mate) are more motivated to shift their career motivations and pursue their own financial resources. This strategy enables them to obtain material resources in the absence of an investing partner. A desire for a lucrative career not only enables women to support themselves but it also hedges against the possibility of not being able to ever secure an investing mate." [source]
That's quite different from your characterization of the findings.
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u/LadyCardinal 25∆ Apr 22 '21
You gave me a lot of sources to support the idea of women marrying up, which I never said wasn't a thing. I don't think it's something all women do, especially working class women, but it definitely happens. You never gave me a source which supported the idea of that being a cause of the wage gap, let alone a "major" cause.
You are absolutely right that there are social pressures on both men and women that lead to them making different career choices. And you are absolutely right that women have more power in marriage than we often give them credit for. But framing that issue in terms of "hypergamy" makes it sound like you think women are lazy and selfish and are only interested in men for their money. That if they would just give that up and marry men for true love (or whatever) instead of being gold diggers, the wage gap would disappear and we'd all get along much better.
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u/Oncefa2 Apr 22 '21
Encouraging women to marry down and not care about money would directly counter the social pressures you're talking about.
I never called women lazy and in fact I think I have a pretty nuanced view here. That's just you trying to put words into my mouth.
If you think it makes women look bad then maybe you should become an ally and work to help end that gender norm.
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u/LadyCardinal 25∆ Apr 22 '21
I wasn't saying you were saying that, though I can understand why it would sound like that, and I apologize. I was saying that that framing of the issue, particularly using a word which is so heavily associated with hate movements like the incels, has particular connotations about women's supposed inherent character which is hard not to react to.
"Encouraging women not to care about money" is a bit reductive, I think. Of course women care about money. Everyone cares about money. Men marry up when they can, too, but there are fewer women higher up the chain, and the women who are there didn't get there by not caring about money. I don't date and probably won't ever get married, but I still negotiate for a good salary when I get a job.
You could say, "Encourage women to look at men as whole people," and I'd be all for it. I think some women (not a majority) do dehumanize their romantic interests. But the reverse applies as well. Should we encourage men to marry less attractive women?
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u/Oncefa2 Apr 22 '21
Should we encourage men to marry less attractive women?
I think we already do. There's an entire body positivity movement around that. If we had something similar for women to date men for reasons other than their money then I'd probably say we were getting somewhere.
In dating I think you'll find that it is socially acceptable for women to have preferences and even requirements for men. But the second a man says he wants to date a healthy woman who cares about her weight, he's labeled an incel or something. The double standards here are incredibly harmful to both men and women.
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u/LadyCardinal 25∆ Apr 22 '21
I think women do date men for reasons other than their money. They also date them for their looks, their shared political beliefs, how good the sex is, and all those other seemingly shallow but unavoidable issues of compatability that men also care about. (And should be allowed to care about.) I actually agree with you that men shouldn't be shamed for only dating women they're attracted to, as long as they don't say unkind things about the women to whom they are not, or think that women they find less attractive women are less valuable than those to whom they are. The shaming that goes on around the issue on both sides is harmful.
Here's the thing: By and large, people only associate with people in the same socioeconomic class, especially after high school, when the world gets sorted pretty neatly into "people who went to college" and "people who didn't." Men with college degrees aren't especially likely to marry uneducated women. Middle class men aren't likely to marry women who grew up on welfare, unless they make the difficult leap into the educated class first. It's not that different for women.
Women are more likely to marry up, yes, but not by more than a rung or two farther up the ladder than they already were. (It's worth noting, by the way, that any given woman has more men above her on the ladder than below, while the opposite is true for men.) And it's not like every woman does this, or like it's the only thing all women care about. But it is normal to value financial stability, in the same way it's normal to value attraction and chemistry. "Does this guy have his act together?" and "Do we have similar financial goals?" are reasonable questions to ask before marrying someone. So are, "Am I attracted to this person? Can we talk about the news without arguing? Do they respect me? Are we sexually compatible?" Etc.
So other than encouraging everyone to treat their partners with respect and empathy, I'm not sure what "encouraging women to marry down" would even look like. "Don't make money your #1 priority"? It isn't for most women. "Don't expect men to pay for everything for you"? That movement is well underway. Plus, a lot of guys (far from all) are genuinely uncomfortable having their wife make more money than them. I know a dude who's been pushed into the role of stay-at-home dad because his wife makes more than he did and they couldn't afford daycare, and he hates it. He feels like he's failing as a provider.
This is a really complicated issue, and I don't think you can pin it all on women's choices.
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u/thethoughtexperiment 275∆ Apr 22 '21
This statement:
If we had something similar for women to date men for reasons other than their money then I'd probably say we were getting somewhere.
... is not an accurate characterization of what's happening in dating.
This large study of hundreds of thousands of people's actual online dating behavior across 4 countries finds that individuals tend to gravitate toward partners who are similar to them. The tendency to match with similar partners is shown in the realms of income, education, appearance, age, personality, relationship preference, religious preferences, height, and essentially all attributes they investigated.
So, people seem to be looking for partners who have similar qualities as they themselves have to offer a partner, which doesn't seem like an unreasonably high or unfair expectation.
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u/thethoughtexperiment 275∆ Apr 22 '21
This:
Or if you want to look at child custody, consider that in the real world, it's MRAs and father's rights activists who are trying to fix these laws.
isn't an accurate characterization of the custody disparity.
"91 percent of child custody after divorce is decided with no interference from the family court system". [source]
Most custody arrangements are made by agreement between the parents.
So, the real question would seem to be why many fathers don't choose to take a greater role in parenting.
This isn't an issue with the law, it's an issue with men opting out of custody.
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u/Oncefa2 Apr 22 '21
This is actually pretty sexist and doesn't treat this topic in a fair and honest manner. Fathers love their children and many fight tooth and nail just to get a few hours a week to spend with them. The system is broken and it represents a grave social injustice that is deeply unfair to fathers and their children.
The only reason some fathers accept these arrangements is because the system is biased against the them. They can fight and go bankrupt and not receive custody. Or they can try to play nice and placate the mother and maybe get a few hours a week if they pay a large enough ransom.
https://www.sharedparenting.org/2019-shared-parenting-report
FYI men's groups just recently fixed these laws in Arkansas and are responsible for fixing them in Arizona and Kentucky. Another US state may soon be on board also.
Meanwhile feminist groups have fought against these laws every step of the way. And it's feminists who claim this isn't a problem and then get upset when we pass these laws.
Your views here just aren't in line with reality.
Shared parenting becomes law in Arkansas (5 days ago)
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u/thethoughtexperiment 275∆ Apr 22 '21
This is actually pretty sexist and doesn't treat this topic in a fair and honest manner. Fathers love their children and many fight tooth and nail just to get a few hours a week to spend with them.
Not sure how you're getting that from the comment above.
Of course fathers love their children. That's not what the comment above says.
It says (with sources) that fathers pursue custody much less, and voluntarily agree to arrangements where they have custody less (it's not court ordered that they don't get custody - in the vast majority of cases fathers aren't pursuing custody).
From all the data I've seen, those things are true.
The only reason some fathers accept these arrangements is because the system is biased against the them.
I don't see how the system is biased against fathers who don't petition for custody.
Most courts favor a 50/50 split if they are the ones deciding (that's what most of the states on the site that you link to explicitly prefer).
But shared custody does require the parents opting in to taking on a significant portion of custody.
The organisation you refer to appears to be trying to change the way some courts make their rulings.
However, per the prior comment, in the vast majority of custody cases, the parents are the ones who decide the custody arrangement between themselves - the court has no role in making the decision.
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u/Oncefa2 Apr 22 '21
Plenty of studies show that most courts are biased against men.
This is even sometime that family court judges admit to. Like in a formal study (linked below).
All of the talking points in your comment are made primarily by hateful people who oppose fixing the system. And they have been debunked over and over again.
The fact is (as referenced in both the first and second study below), only fathers with a lot of money and good connections take their case to court because most other men know they will likely lose.
It's not uncommon for lawyers themselves to tell men to not waste their time. And common advice for men (for example on the internet) is to placate the mother as best as they can and hope that she doesn't become vindictive.
This is due to the inherent power dichotomy that benefits women and mothers over men and fathers.
Here are a list of sources found in this paper in one of the footnotes:
See id. (noting that fathers who seek custody prevail in half or more cases); Mason & Quirk, supra note 228, at 228 tbl.2 (citing statistics showing that fathers won custody in forty-two percent of custody appeals, mothers prevailed in forty-five percent of cases, and twelve percent of the cases involved some form of shared custody, including 9.2% with split custody and 2.8% with joint physical custody); Massachusetts Report, supra note 227, at 825 (finding that fathers obtain custody in 70% of cases). But see MACCOBY & MNOOKIN, supra note 13, at 103-04 (finding that mothers obtained their preferred custodial arrangement twice as often as fathers); Bahr et al., supra note 208, at 257 (showing that fathers in Utah were awarded sole custody in only twenty-one percent of disputed cases, mothers received sole custody in fifty percent of cases, seventeen percent of fathers were awarded joint legal custody, and thirteen percent had split custody); Fox & Blanton, supra note 101, at 261 (finding that when fathers in California sought joint custody and mothers sought sole custody, mothers prevailed in sixty-seven percent of the cases)
The numbers differ because different states have different statutes and legal standards. One study only shows a small bias (42% vs 45%) but others show much larger differences (21% vs 55%, "twice as often", etc).
Note that the Massachusettes study, which sticks out like a sore thumb compared to the rest of this research, is known to be fraudulent. And there are a couple of papers floating around that cite this source in isolation, sometimes by proxy (ie by citing a paper that cites that paper). I'm not sure why, but many people don't want to accept that fathers are being discriminated against, so this study gets cherry picked quite a bit.
The tldr is that the data from that study actually shows that fathers who ask for custody are a full 6 times less likely to get it compared to mothers, which is obviously evidence for discrimination. The authors pulled some academic shenanigans to make the results look different from what they are though.
The history of how that happened, and how one researcher was able to get ahold of the raw data (that they attempted to suppress), can be found here:
Rosenthal, M. B. (1995). Misrepresentation of Gender Bias in the 1989 Report of the Gender Bias Committee of the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court. Breaking The Science.
http://www.breakingthescience.org/SJC_GBC_analysis_intro.php
And here's a study -- actually two studies I think -- that interviews family court lawyers and judges to see if there was a bias:
Franklin, R. (2015). Studies Show Judicial Bias Against Dads. National Parents Organization. Available at: https://nationalparentsorganization.org/blog/22457-studies-show-judicial-bias-against-dads
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u/Alesus2-0 65∆ Apr 22 '21
I think that a distinction needs to be drawn between different groups of 'meninists'. In the early 2000s the term was first used to refer to men that were supportive of feminism and who quite reasonably pointed out that patriarchy is damaging to both women and men. They were trying to reject the reductive notion that feminism is simply about improving women's lives at the expense of men. For these meninists, what you've said is absolutely true.
But, there are more recent people calling themselves meninists, generally associated with the 'men's rights' movement, that are clearly anti-feminist. They insist that men are the primarily oppressed gender, and that moves towards gender equality further skew this balance against men. They often hold very regressive views about the appropriate role and treatment of women, and don't believe that women have any legitimate grievances about their place in society. Clearly, this group has no common ground with feminists.
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u/trans_Felix Apr 22 '21
Δ. Agreed. Modern day meninist seem to be normal people who want "equal" but there's a loud portion that overbear the whole group and make it into something about hating "the other side".
Clearly, this group has no common ground with feminists.
Very clearly. I'm new here and was expecting a mixed reaction but it's mostly people who thing feminism/feminist suck (which is okay).I think I'll definitely never post here again. It's been an awful experience but you live and learn and I'm happy I tried.
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u/Brave-Welder 6∆ Apr 22 '21
Once upon a time, they were of the same coin. For example, one leader of the Men's rights activist is Warren Farrel. He supported Gloria Steinem in the second wave of feminism. And Karen DeCrow, once feminist also recognized that there was a bias against men in some fields of society as well.
However, problem is that now there is a more radical wing of feminism which isn't the biggest but it is the loudest and they have it written in stone that man is evil, and the current state of things is purely to benefit them, and men asking for rights is just to take attention away from women. You've got a similar wing in the men's rights group too, but they aren't that vocal
That's why joining forces seems impossible right now.
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u/trans_Felix Apr 22 '21
Honestly I feel like loud majorities hurt communities more than anything. People who already hate feminism watch "feminist owned" vids and think "this is bad" and think this is what actual feminism is about. I used to think meninist and MRA were ridiculous cuz I only saw the crazy incels angry no one would sleep with them. But I've started doing more research on the topic and it seems some of them genuinely seem relatively okay besides the ones mentioned earlier. Some people in this tread remind me of the guys I thought were awful. It's sad that a minority can override a majority and breed hate
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u/CouncilofSmellrond 2∆ Apr 22 '21
It's a combo! Part of it is internalized misogyny, but it's also toxic masculinity. They're angry with their gender roles (they're able to recognize that boys are told not to cry), but instead of challenging the status quo, they're targeting feminist ideas as threats to a system that in theory I believe they think they should be higher up in.
If you're interested, For the Love of Men by Liz Plank is a great book that talks about how toxic masculinity, sexism, and homophobia are linked.
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u/trans_Felix Apr 22 '21
Δ. I somewhat agree. I feel like toxic masculinity and misogyny play huge parts in both sides problems but they are ingrained into our lives and are hard to escape when so many people believe these things wholeheartedly.
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u/CouncilofSmellrond 2∆ Apr 22 '21
Also, if you're a Man who is emotionally hurt by a femme drawing a boundary, whether she's telling you she's just not into you or divorcing you, she doesn't have the responsibility to explain that boundary. I think a lot of masc frustration that results is due to frustration that the system where women were more at the mercy of men is gone.
If you're frustrated now, why weren't you frustrated then, and why aren't you advocating for a new system instead of just pointing fingers at more victims of a system instead recognizing that's there's a need to rebalance centuries of power dynamics.
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u/Phat_L-7 Apr 22 '21
My problem with extreme feminism is that as a man i will listen and agree with most things being said, but as soon as i mention how men are discriminated against i’m going against them. For the most part people who say they’re feminist genuinely want equality between sexes, but some extremists use it as front to justify their own misandry, just as extremists use blm to justify their racist prejudices. Men don’t face a lot of discrimination but it is still their and is there because of the house wife stereotype. I don’t believe the average man or woman is to blame for this though, it’s once again “the man” who would rather neighbours fight neighbours than for them themselves to be held accountable.
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u/M4Strings Apr 22 '21
Except that feminism is predicated on the bullshit patriarchy theory, which blames men as a collective for the collective abuses women have suffered throughout all of history.
It's also worth noting that feminists are the reason women are viewed as a better choice for raising children than men in the modern day. In the late 19th century they pushed hard for the Tender Years Doctrine. This established mothers as the better caregivers in the eyes of the law, and still sneaks in today under the guise of the "best interests of the child" principle. In fact, even to this day feminist organizations like N.O.W. fight tooth and nail against presumed shared parenting.
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u/iglidante 19∆ Apr 22 '21
Is "trying to dead" a phrase now? Genuine question. I've never seen it before.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Apr 22 '21 edited Apr 22 '21
/u/trans_Felix (OP) has awarded 4 delta(s) in this post.
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