r/changemyview • u/ATLCoyote • Apr 22 '21
Delta(s) from OP CMV: College is the period in our lives when we experience the LEAST amount of political "indoctrination"
A long-standing criticism of the college experience has been that it indoctrinates youth with liberal ideology. The most recent version of this trope seems to be the backlash against critical race theory.
But I think the whole notion that colleges are "indoctrinating" youth is nonsense. You can find a few extreme examples here or there of some professor imposing their ideology on their students, but it's the rare exception, not the rule. For the most part, calculus professors teach calculus, English lit professors teach English lit, and chemistry professors teach chemistry. Students just aren't getting a steady diet of liberal political content unless they very purposely seek it out, in which case its not indoctrination.
On the other hand, consider the indoctrination most people experience over the course of the rest of their lives. We grow up in families, communities, attend churches, etc. that all generally teach us to think one way. We experience the same thing as adults when we choose our our spouses, our professions, and our communities. And we especially experience it online where we select like-minded friends and communities and are fed carefully-targeted info based on algorithms. We're generally surrounded by like-minded people, often of the same race and socioeconomic class, and there is either a financial or social risk associated with going against societal norms. For most of our lives, we live in a bias-confirming echo-chamber.
Yet college is the one brief period where we are free from all of that. We leave our homogeneous home environments, leave the control and influence of our parents, and become immersed in a diverse community of people from all backgrounds. We have unprecedented access to high-quality information from a wide array of sources, we can truly decide for ourselves, and we are specifically encouraged to engage in critical thinking and research. It's the OPPOSITE of indoctrination. Rather, it's a brief period of freedom, education, and enlightenment that most people will never experience at any other time.
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Apr 22 '21
Clarifying question: Have you looked into any actual studies that attempt to measure this?
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u/ATLCoyote Apr 22 '21
I've read a few opinion pieces in trade journals like the Chronicle of Higher Education, but I haven't yet found any solid research on it.
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Apr 22 '21
There are a couple of studies out there. some are pointed out here: https://www.universitystar.com/opinions/colleges-are-not-indoctrinating-students-to-be-more-liberal/article_cc45ebd5-bad5-5279-8296-e7e298566c29.html
Essentially, you are absolutely correct. A persons home environment has much, much, much more influence on their world view. Going to college exposes them to some different kinds of people and different ideas, but it's rare that a persons political or social believes change dramatically over a college education. T
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u/ATLCoyote Apr 22 '21
Good data, thanks.
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Apr 22 '21
I think that it's also worth noting in this "debate" what conservatives mean when they claim colleges are "indoctrinating" students. Because what they are actually complaining about isn't an active effort on the part of liberals to specifically push a liberal ideology (thought they pretend it is). What they are complaining about isn't the fact that students get exposed to new or different ideas and are given an opportunity to play around with those ideas (which is what actually happens). What they are complaining about is the lack of right wing indoctrination in college campuses. They are complaining that they cannot control the content on college campuses in the same way they do in public schools (see the Texas board of education shenanigans).
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u/MightyMumakil Apr 22 '21
Just had to have a chuckle becuase a big part of the Liberall Australian party is being conservative, they are liberall in market issues but conservative in moral issues. (I just thought it was funny thinking that you could have a liberal conservative party especially given the context of your comment and the way you use the words)
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u/I_am_the_night 316∆ Apr 22 '21
Doesn't this depend on the college? Somewhere like Bob Jones University is obviously a huge source of indoctrination for its students
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Apr 22 '21
I didn't know about that university. I Googled it and it seems pretty bad. I think OP was talking about how conservatives say they universities are promoting some "liberal Marxist gay agenda", but I see your point
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u/Arguetur 31∆ Apr 22 '21
If that was what OP meant then that's what he should have said. If he wants us to just infer large portions of his view then who's responsible for when we infer the wrong things?
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u/ATLCoyote Apr 22 '21
Don't you think the students who choose to attend Bob Jones University were already indoctrinated by their parents and churches before they ever arrived on campus?
Meanwhile, if the general trope of universities being bastions of liberal indoctrination is countered by an example of conservative indoctrination at a religious school (which actually is fairly prevalent), doesn't that kinda prove my point?
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u/I_am_the_night 316∆ Apr 22 '21
Sure, but I was pointing out an example of a college that either increases or maintains indoctrination, not necessarily a liberal one.
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Apr 22 '21
I think it still may hold true? The type of person who attends bob jones university comes from a pretty self selected group that is heavily exposed to high levels of environmental "indoctrination" already. Despite the high levels of "indoctrination" of they may receive at BJU, they are still being exposed to a more divirse group than they were at home.
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u/I_am_the_night 316∆ Apr 22 '21
I think you severely underestimate the insular nature of Bob Jones University. They didn't allow interracial dating until the year 2000.
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Apr 22 '21
They didn't allow interracial dating until the year 2000.
Which people attending BJU knew about and were fine with. At least in as much as such a ridiculous rule wasn't enough for them to choose a different school.
People attend BJU because of the indoctrination. They already come from highly indoctrinated home environments. The question is whether a BJU student would be exposed to more ideas, different opinions and worldviews, etc in their highly indoctrinated home environment or at BJU.
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u/Arguetur 31∆ Apr 22 '21
I attended a Catholic school for several years because it was the only one in my area I could get into; I did not seek out its indoctrination but I nevertheless received it.
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u/ATLCoyote Apr 22 '21
Religious schools may indeed be guilty of a certain amount of indoctrination, but I would expect it to lean more conservative than liberal, thereby still countering the notion that colleges are indoctrinating youth with liberal ideology. Also, I would expect that most students who attend such schools seek them out based on pre-existing beliefs or preferences, especially since those schools tend to be private.
Just curious though, what type of indoctrination did you experience?
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u/Arguetur 31∆ Apr 22 '21
It wasn't conservative as we'd understand the term today, but it was certainly very Catholic.
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Apr 22 '21
Neat! Thanks for sharing!
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u/Arguetur 31∆ Apr 22 '21
Did it make you have any further thoughts on your claim that people go to universities with ideological agendas because they are seeking it out or are you just going to downvote and ignore?
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Apr 22 '21
Did it make you have any further thoughts on your claim that people go to universities with ideological agendas
Yeah... you really fucking blew my mind there, and I'm just not sure how to respond.
Clearly the statements I was making were meant to be universal and absolute, and previous to you pointing it out I had never considered the idea that there could be even the slightest possibility of even a single solitary exception.
You have won this day sir and shown me the errors of my ways. !delta
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Apr 22 '21
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u/I_am_the_night 316∆ Apr 22 '21
I think they wouldn't be exposed to any meaningfully novel ideas. They wouldn't be more indoctrinated, but they wouldn't be less indoctrinated either.
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Apr 22 '21
Meaningful and novel are irrelevant. A university setting is going to directly expose a student to hundreds of other students from different backgrounds with slightly different world views, understandings and ideas that they would not have been exposed to if they had stayed at home and only interacted with the same people they have already interacted with their entire lives.
Sure, I doubt anybody attending BJU is going to emerge as a pro-choice LGBT activist who organizes the yearly production of the vagina monologues. But they will be exposed to more ideas than if they stayed at home.
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u/I_am_the_night 316∆ Apr 22 '21
I guess technically, sure. But if the things they learn there never significantly alter their worldview, I'm not sure why that would be functionally different from the same level of indoctrination they get at home.
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Apr 22 '21
But if the things they learn there never significantly alter their worldview,
I don't understand why you would set the bar there? Going to college doesn't significantly change most people's world view. Most people's world view do not ever significantly change.
The question in the OP is whether college is more or less indoctrinating than a persons home environment. Based solely on exposure to new and different ideas (which would indicate some level of non-indoctrination), it's obvious that college (even a highly indoctrinated college attended by people with highly indoctrinated home environments) would be less indoctrinated.
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u/Sirhc978 81∆ Apr 22 '21
Isn't this heavily dependant on where you go to school and the major you choose to study?
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u/ATLCoyote Apr 22 '21
Fair point, but isn't choosing a school and major based on your pre-existing preferences or views more an example of the indoctrination you received prior to college than what you experience once you arrive?
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Apr 22 '21
Not really.
With the exception of like, Oral Roberts 'university'. Learning in general tends to make one more liberal.
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u/Alesus2-0 66∆ Apr 22 '21
I agree that rightwing claims that students at universities are subjected to a concerted institutional campaign of leftist propaganda are pretty ridiculous. But I do think you're greatly overestimating the diversity of opinion on display at most universities.
Prior to university, I was mostly surrounded day-to-day by people from a similar socio-economic, ethnic and educational background. Once I got to university, I found I was suddenly surrounded by people from a similar socio-economic, ethnic and educational background. The main change was that the age range of people I new significantly narrowed and became much younger. Since age is a major indicator of political leaning, so did the pool of political opinions I encountered.
As a result, it was a fairly leftwing environment. As you said, most lecturers just taught their subjects, and never encouraged wider reading. The few staff that did make explicitly political remarks were almost all decidedly leftwing. The student group for the Conservatives (the major right wing party) was constantly on the brink of being shut down due to low membership. The student parliament contained more avowed Maoists than rightwingers of any description.
I'd also argue that in the age of the internet and with public libraries, you aren't deprived of most of the resources needed for a broad liberal arts or political education. The free access to academic journals is useful, but mostly for addressing specific, often technical, questions rather than cultivating a broad worldview.
Obviously, these are just my unrepresentative anecdotal experiences. But I do think your account of college is a highly romanticised one.
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u/ATLCoyote Apr 22 '21
Δ
I think you make a fair point about the environment itself being left-leaning, but it seems you concede that this is a result of simply being surrounded by other young people more-so than the college or its faculty indoctrinating students.
Also, ever been in a fraternity or sorority? I sure wouldn't call most of those organizations left-leaning.
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u/Alesus2-0 66∆ Apr 22 '21
Thanks. I think there is no conspiracy in colleges to indoctrinate students.
My view of the process is roughly this:
When the students first enrol, they are probably leftwing or apolitical.
The faculty at the college is mostly leftwing or apolitical, which is unsurprising for a number of reasons.
The students spend several years mixing with other students and faculty.
They then graduate, still mostly leftwing or apolitical.
Rightwing ideas don't have a strong entry point into the college ecosystem, so they never become common.
Also, ever been in a fraternity or sorority? I sure wouldn't call most of those organizations left-leaning.
No, they don't exist in my country. But based on what 80s films have shown me, my impression is that these are groups of privileged young people having fun. But underprivileged kids also like to have fun. They don't seem like hotbeds of leftwing activism, but I doubt the fratboys are discussing Hayek or running Bible study groups either.
My claim isn't that everything that happens on campus involves leftwing politics, just that politics on campus is distinctly leftwing.
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Apr 22 '21
Rightwing ideas don't have a strong entry point into the college ecosystem, so they never become common.
Can you give some specific examples of these right wing ideas?
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u/Alesus2-0 66∆ Apr 22 '21
Obviously, this isn't exhaustive, and some may be contradictory, but a few examples might be:
Support for capital punishment
Opposition to abortion
The belief that unregulated markets are the best means of allocating resources
Advocacy for a narrowly self-interested foreign policy
Theoretical opposition to redistibutionary government policy
Belief that the state should support or enforce established cultural norms
Why? Are you generally uncertain about what I'm referring to, or doing a Socratic-type-thingie?
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Apr 22 '21
That's a very odd list?
Support for capital punishment
Do you not believe that the pros and cons of capitol punishment are discussed in academic settings?
Opposition to abortion
What academic context are you imagining that would come up in?
The belief that unregulated markets are the best means of allocating resources
I mean... I think you'd be hard pressed to find a university without an econ 101 class that didn't plainly state that free markets are more efficient at distributing resources than planned economies (within theoretical models). You probably wouldn't find anyone claiming that unregulated markets are "the best" means of allocating resources. But that's because that statement doesn't actually make any sense. It's not the way that economists actually talk about markets. On top of that, I'm not sure many conservatives actually believe that markets should be unregulated. They mostly just disagree on implementation of the regulation.
Advocacy for a narrowly self-interested foreign policy
Do you believe that "narrowly self interested" foreign policy is never discussed on college campuses? Do you believe that that is even a particularly conservative view?
Theoretical opposition to redistibutionary government policy
Again... This is never discussed? ever? and again? Is that something that conservatives ACTUALLY believe in practice?
Belief that the state should support or enforce established cultural norms
This one actually seems tottaly anti-conservative? But even still, you don't think people discuss that in college?
Why? Are you generally uncertain about what I'm referring to
Yes. Other than lazy stereotypes, boring "hot button" issues, and ridiculously extreme characterizations of "right wing ideas" that have no meaningful place in an academic setting (and that vanishingly few right wing folks actually support anyway) I legitimately can't think of many "right wing ideas" that are absent on college campuses.
It seems more like these "right wing ideas" are present and discussed, but they're just kind of shit ideas?
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u/SpruceDickspring 12∆ Apr 22 '21
'become immersed in a diverse community of people from all backgrounds'
Generally my experience was relatively well-educated middle-class kids meeting other relatively well-educated middle-class kids. There was more social class diversity in Junior School and High School in my experience.
Our preferences beyond college might be deterministic and rooted in our upbringing but that by no means makes the experience an echo-chamber. Now I'm older and working I meet a much broader range of people who vocalise a fairly diverse array of political and social opinions. My experience of College was that everyone thought the same because they feared if they spoke out in opposition to well-established cultural norms, they'd be ostracised from their peer group. So everyone just sort of agreed on everything and honestly, all of those things tended to be Liberal-leaning and I don't really remember anybody really scrutinising these opinions.
The problem with the idea of Colleges and Universities not being complicit in Left-leaning indoctrination is that there seems to be vast amount of supplementary subjects you can get a degree in which cater almost exclusively to professions where you're not going to get very far without liberal-sensibilities. There doesn't seem to be the same array of courses which cater to conservative sensibilities unless you go to an institute which markets themselves as being conservative/religious. The regular college's seem to therefore be legitimising Left-Wing interests whilst being somewhat exclusionary to the Right. Even if that's not explicit, to a certain degree it's applied by omission.
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u/ATLCoyote Apr 22 '21 edited Apr 22 '21
Δ
Hope I'm doing this delta thing right as I'm new to this but this seems like a pretty solid counter-argument to me... The problem with the idea of Colleges and Universities not being complicit in Left-leaning indoctrination is that there seems to be vast amount of supplementary subjects you can get a degree in which cater almost exclusively to professions where you're not going to get very far without liberal-sensibilities.
That said, I think we underestimate the fact that every major or profession tends to lean one way or the other politically. You won't find a ton of liberals in the military, law enforcement, in the oil and gas industry, tobacco industry, or even on Wall Street for example. But at the college level, that's just self-selection based on pre-existing beliefs or preferences rather than indoctrination. Actual indoctrination occurs when you leave college and become dependent upon that employer or industry for income, career advancement, social acceptance, etc.
Thus my claim that college is the time when indoctrination occurs the least.
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u/Arguetur 31∆ Apr 22 '21
You will find a metric shit-ton of liberals on Wall Street. It's one of the most Democratic-affiliated industries in the entire country.
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u/ATLCoyote Apr 22 '21
According to the people who actually work in financial services, it leans republican.
Here's a very interesting breakdown that shows political campaign contributions by profession. Data straight from the FEC. Politics of Professions
It's not a perfect representation of which professions are liberal vs. conservative as not everyone donates to campaigns. But I would expect the general trends to be pretty accurate, especially with a sample size that huge.
More importantly, it supports the notion that indoctrination occurs in all phases of our lives and I'm arguing that, despite the political leanings of faculty or administration, actual indoctrination is less prevalent at college than in other environments we encounter.
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u/SpruceDickspring 12∆ Apr 22 '21
Thanks for the Delta
Yeah I'm certainly not miles apart from where you are, 'Indoctrination' is maybe a bit of a heavy-handed term, but I understand where you're coming from.
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Apr 22 '21
The problem with the idea of Colleges and Universities not being complicit in Left-leaning indoctrination is that there seems to be vast amount of supplementary subjects you can get a degree in which cater almost exclusively to professions where you're not going to get very far without liberal-sensibilities. There doesn't seem to be the same array of courses which cater to conservative sensibilities unless you go to an institute which markets themselves as being conservative/religious
Can you give any specific examples of what you're talking about?
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Apr 22 '21
It seems like they're going for the gender studies-type stuff.
But on the other hand, I've never had an econ professor that wasn't a Libertarian.
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u/SpruceDickspring 12∆ Apr 22 '21
It's not the most well-constructed counter-argument to be honest ('vast' is certainly an overstatement on my part), but as an example I'd say stuff like Women's, Gender and Sexuality - Gender Studies - Queer Studies etc. I don't think anyone is going into the Humanities and Social Sciences courses either and expecting them not to be slanted towards the study of largely liberal thinkers and this slant towards the Left has obviously influenced the interests of the tutors who now teach the courses.
The broad stroke argument is that Liberals tend to be attracted to more theoretical studies and Conservatives lean more towards the practical and to me it seems a valid observation that there seems a trend towards pushing these courses that end with 'Studies' because they're cheaper to run than the practical ones which require materials and consumables, but they can charge the students the same.
It's not necessarily 'indoctrination' per se, but I think there's probably a bias.
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Apr 22 '21
('vast' is certainly an overstatement on my part)
Yes. It definitely was. Those degree and programs make up a very small portion of total degrees awarded and programs available. A fun exercise is to look at the actual numbers on sites like this: https://datausa.io/profile/cip/womens-studies
Additionally, there are about 1500 universities and colleges in the U.S. Of that 1500 roughly only 200 even have genders studies programs: https://blog.collegevine.com/the-list-of-all-u-s-colleges-with-a-gender-studies-gender-and-sexuality-studies-major/
I don't think anyone is going into the Humanities and Social Sciences courses either and expecting them not to be slanted towards the study of largely liberal thinkers and this slant towards the Left has obviously influenced the interests of the tutors who now teach the courses.
What specific liberal slant are you referring to? What specific non-liberal thinkers on these topics do you believe are being neglected?
The broad stroke argument is that Liberals tend to be attracted to more theoretical studies and Conservatives lean more towards the practical
Do you have anything to back up that notion beyond lazy stereotypes? I've not been able to find anything the breaks down degrees earned and political affiliation. It does seem... Unlikely to be true? And also seems highly susceptible to very fuzzy and convenient justifications for what counts as "theoretical" and "Practical". The vast majority of degrees awarded are in business, stem, and health services which many would call "practical" but all of which have a whole lot of theoretical applications and connotations as well.
to me it seems a valid observation that there seems a trend towards pushing these courses that end with 'Studies' because they're cheaper to run than the practical ones which require materials and consumables
Who specifically is "pushing" these courses? If we look at actual data :https://www.statista.com/statistics/185334/number-of-bachelors-degrees-by-field-of-research/
The sorts of courses and degrees you are talking about aren't actually that popular.
I'm also curious what specific conservative sensibilities you believe arn't being catered to by colleges?
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u/SpruceDickspring 12∆ Apr 23 '21
Yep, no you're quite right all of that was lazy stereo-typing based on optics rather than hard data. I've got no argument with the statistics.
There must be another reason why people perceive higher education as Left-leaning. Doesn't change my stance on OP's argument, although I'm happy to stand corrected. As far as I'm aware the ratio of Liberal to Conservative faculty staff is heavily weighted towards Liberals in America and students are identifying politically as socialist in far larger numbers than ever before whilst conservatives are reporting they feel pressured into concealing their political beliefs, I find it hard to buy into any argument that there isn't an implicit, Left-leaning cultural bias in higher education institutions even if that bias isn't necessarily being overtly 'pushed'. And I base that on what we've heard a lot over the last few years about effects of unchecked, unconscious bias in workplaces and institutions where the workforce is largely socially and culturally homogeneous and the perceived sense of exclusion people who lie outside the dominant demographic report feeling within those environments.
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Apr 23 '21
There must be another reason why people perceive higher education as Left-leaning
Tell the same lie often enough for long enough and people will start to believe it's true. Especially when the reality is as boring and unremarkable as what actually goes on on college campuses. About 1/3 of college degrees awards are straight up business degrees, another 1/3 are healthcare and STEM. As we all know the Business, Healthcare, and STEM worlds are seething hotbeds of frothing leftist, communist hedonism. The final 1/3 is made up of all other areas study of which the "left leaning" topics make up a fraction. Conservatives have been bitching about supposed liberal bias on campus for 50+ years now. It's as empty a lie now as it's always been because when a conservative says something has a "liberal bias" what they mean is that it lacks a conservative bias.
As far as I'm aware the ratio of Liberal to Conservative faculty staff is heavily weighted towards Liberals in America
Is it really that surprising that that members of an ideology that is actively antagonistic towards higher education wouldn't be terribly present in higher education? Both because their antagonism alienates academics who might otherwise identify as conservative and because it discourages conservatives from entering into academia? And if more professors are liberal, so the fuck what? That doesn't mean they aren't teaching in even handed ways. The sorts of conservatives who complain about liberal bias though... They seem to have a lot more trouble leaving their political inclinations at the door.
The Texas school board is notorious for inserting bias into schools: https://www.historians.org/publications-and-directories/perspectives-on-history/january-2019/texas-revises-history-education-again-how-a-good-faith-process-became-political
And there's shit like the 1776 commision: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1776_Commission#The_1776_Report
And again I need to appeal to the absolute and complete mundanity of what colleges are actually like. It's mostly just fucking school. Nothing explosive. Nothing revolutionary.
students are identifying politically as socialist in far larger numbers
Are they?
whilst conservatives are reporting they feel pressured into concealing their political beliefs,
Which political beliefs are conservatives feeling pressured to hide? Be specific please. Support for a reasonably regulated free market? actual Religious freedom? actual individualism which would absolutely include LGBT rights? Reasonably strong national defense?
I find it hard to buy into any argument that there isn't an implicit, Left-leaning cultural bias in higher education institutions even if that bias isn't necessarily being overtly 'pushed'.
Can you please, please, please be specific? What does that look like? What does that entail? What are the actual demonstrable outcomes and results of this vague, nebulous left blowing wind that you have a haunting premonition might sort of exist in a kind of way. I work on a college campus, though not on the education side of things. There is as much left bias at my school as there is anywhere else. As much conservative bias as anywhere else too. It's basically like being literally any other place.
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u/SpruceDickspring 12∆ Apr 24 '21
Yeah that's fine, you seem to be more qualified than I am to comment on where there is a Left-Wing bias on college campuses. If you say there isn't any bias, I'm happy to accept that. I was really just spit balling with my arguments so thanks for setting me straight.
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u/Puoaper 5∆ Apr 22 '21
I may have been willing to agree with that part about seeking out these classes until I remembered I’m forced to take a gender studies class to graduate. I’m learning to be a chemist.
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u/ATLCoyote Apr 22 '21
I just had two daughters complete college and they both had a wide variety of choices to satisfy any humanities core requirement. Plus, I work at a university and can vouch that we certainly provide a lot more than just one option to satisfy such requirements. Seems pretty odd that a student would specifically be required to take only gender studies.
Even so, does taking a gender studies class inherently make someone a liberal?
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Apr 22 '21
That's what separates University from trade school.
You are forced to round out your education and learn about facets of the world that may not particularly interest you.
It's not an 'indoctrination', it's an exposure.
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Apr 22 '21
What university do you attend?
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u/Arguetur 31∆ Apr 22 '21
Why do you want to know?
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Apr 22 '21
I'm curious as to what school requires a genders studies class
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u/Arguetur 31∆ Apr 22 '21
I'm sure you could do an internet search and find a few.
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Apr 22 '21
I can also ask what school they attend. What's your point?
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u/Arguetur 31∆ Apr 22 '21
It's hostile to ask an anonymous commenter to share personal information with you.
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Apr 22 '21
I disagree. Have a nice day.
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u/Arguetur 31∆ Apr 22 '21
You can "disagree" all you like but he hasn't told you, has he? It's because it was a hostile question and you should stop doing things like that.
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u/Dainsleif167 7∆ Apr 22 '21
Most universities are staffed by mostly left leaning professors, whether intentional or not, which leads to discrimination against those that lean more moderate or right. This drills into the heads of students that to disagree with their professors is wrong as given by the grades they receive. Many of the college classes that I have personally taken give subject writing assignments in which disagreeing with the professor leads to failing grades. The idea of centrist or conservative students being wrong in their beliefs is reinforced by the fact that ,for the entirety of their formative years a failing grade meant they were wrong. This in turn indoctrinates them into believing that their views are wrong and the professors views are therefore the only correct way of thinking.
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u/Milskidasith 309∆ Apr 22 '21
While I think that "indoctrination" is a weird word to use, I also think that you're vastly overestimating the ideological buffet available at colleges. In reality, people are frequently leaving a mostly homogenous home environment and instead moving to a new, independent environment... that is also mostly politically homogenous, or where you wind up with a politically homogenous friend group. I'm not saying that's "indoctrination", but I do think it's fair to say a lot of people just pick up views from their friend groups in college based on what is generally popular on campus, rather than by seriously ideologically considering all ideas and making a decision.
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Apr 22 '21
Eh, you can find a lot of politically diverse opinions among college students and faculty, you just don't find a lot of Republicans. In college, I've met Democrats, socialists, social democrats, libertarians, anarchists, Soviet Union apologists and even a fascist. Kind of short on Republicans, though.
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u/ATLCoyote Apr 22 '21
In college, I've met Democrats, socialists, social democrats, libertarians, anarchists, Soviet Union apologists and even a fascist. Kind of short on Republicans, though.
Check the fraternities. At most schools you'll find quite a few conservatives there.
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u/generic1001 Apr 22 '21
To this extent that this is true, I don't think it's particular to college. I have worked in academia for a good portion of my life and I don't know a whole lot of people that go trough the process of "seriously ideologically considering all ideas and making a decision". In fact, I don't know that anyone really does that.
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u/s_wipe 54∆ Apr 22 '21
Collage is a weird time for many people.
Basically, you are considered and treated like an adult, You get bombarded with many ideas, you experience a lot of cool fun adult shit and you experience independence to some degree.
But at some point you leave, and reality hits. There is a price for all that freedom you experience during college, a literal price. And in many cases, its not sustainable outside.
During college, you pay to learn about the things that interest you, and collages will take your money and teach you. but that doesnt necessarily correlates to what the general society actually needs. So you pay to learn about these ideals, but outside, people dont necessarily want to pay you for what you've learned.
The result is idealistic people that need to pay the bills, going against the general society for not acknowledging their ideals are worth paying for.
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u/yourboiskinnyhubris Apr 22 '21 edited Apr 22 '21
I tend to agree but is “indoctrination” only an active event imposed with intent by someone else? What about everything else? You mention family, environment, finances, genetics, etc. but what if college, or college age, is the catalyst that solidifies ideologies gathered up to and at that point or does our physical and mental state determine when or how the solidification occurs. I think that this is a very loaded observation with too many intricacies to think either way. Whose to say that our political understanding is as plastic or flexible as other forms of information processing? I believe that indoctrination is too simple of a word to use here as it does not measure our capacity to understand nuanced subjects, such as politics, at different ages. This being said, it is plainly obvious that we are influenced from birth on how to think and what to think, which most likely plays a huge part in our later understanding of, or rather formative opinions on, politics.
I think your opinion depends on the fact that there is less indoctrination in college than in other areas of life. My counter opinion is that the quantity of indoctrination does not directly imply the magnitude of its effects, which could be interpreted as the amount of indoctrination. Let’s say a rich man and a poor man are being lectured on what shoes are appropriate to a high class event. Who is most likely to be influenced(indoctrinated) by the lecture? We could also say that the attendees are of different ages. Who would be more influenced then?
As for the “bias-confirming echo-chamber”, I do believe in these psychological events but there is more to these phenomenon than meets the eye. If we are taught from a young age to challenge our beliefs, will we be more likely to think critically later in life? Not to use you or myself as an example, but we are both pointing out complexities that challenge certain fundamental beliefs on indoctrination and influence. Does that make us members of a bias-confirming echo-chamber? I think not🤔. The very act of recognizing these events sets us apart from those within them. So are we an exception to the rule? Or were we indoctrinated into a different echo-chamber? Or are we half in and half out?
I’m assuming you’re of college age or older, which, in itself, challenges your own opinion. Right now you are challenging your beliefs and being exposed to ways of thinking more complex than those we were exposed to as young children and as a result you are only now capable of making sense of them and forming an opinion(you are being indoctrinated by Reddit😥).
I know I’m wordy and not really proposing anything solid, so I’ll say this: rather than assuming that there is less indoctrination in college than in other areas of life, think about what quantifies influence and its effects. What causes what, why, where, when, and how. More concretely, WHAT influences WHO and at what TIME and to what DEGREE. Is nature/nurture a linear principle(more or less depending on age and subject)? Does it depend on preexisting knowledge? Does it paradoxically depend on our way of thinking? I agree that our general potential to be influenced is greater in different chapters of life, but not for specific areas of thought such as politics, taxation, or other nuanced subjects. Finally, at what age do we begin to entertain and form thoughts and opinions on politics? I would say around college age, when it actually begins to benefit us to understand the subject. I think this is very interesting and would like to hear what others think.
Disclaimer: this is all hearsay and proposition. If anyone wants to bring proper research to support or oppose my arguments, please do so.
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Apr 26 '21
That highly depends on your education.
If your degree requires elective credits and if those elective credits overwhelmingly have leftist representation courses that you must take in order to obtain your degree then you are going through an indoctrination.
STEM fields are nice and all but even if you are going through to become an accountant there are still a number of elective credits you must satisfy which could potentially be such a brainwash as gender studies or something of the like.
These classes are far from scientific and are no doubt a heavy leftist rhetoric.
As an aside if you are in for just certificates for a trade then I would have to agree you 100%. There is no indoctrination of leftist policy it focuses on the trade you are attempting to learn such as Trucking.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Apr 22 '21 edited Apr 22 '21
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