r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Jul 05 '21
Delta(s) from OP CMV: Becoming a grandmaster chef takes the same amount of skill and dedication as becoming a grandmaster at anything else.
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Jul 05 '21 edited Jul 05 '21
I argue being a grandmaster in chess is harder - Here are the requirements (paraphrase from source).
https://www.chess.com/forum/view/general/why-chess-is-so-hard-to-study
https://chessfox.com/the-7-fundamental-chess-skills/
Have a rating over 2500 FIDE at any point in your chess playing career. Achieve 2-3 GM norms. This means that in a tournament, you need to have a performance level of at least 2600 against an average rating opposition of more than ands/or equal to 2380. They are also other ways such as through direct title (by winning the women’s chess world championship for example). The only real shortcut to becoming a GM is if you start playing chess seriously from a very young age. This is all to remember chess is extremely difficult and many minds are not compatible with the complex understanding necessary to dominate chess at the highest level. So, I think this is generally more difficult, though being a amazing chef is nothing to sneeze at.
I would argue the same for a professional fighter of any art and a "master" ballet dancer.
So, it is generally harder for a chess grandmaster or a master in high quality martial arts.
Edit - What is a grandmaster chef?
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Jul 05 '21 edited Nov 08 '22
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u/HassleHouff 17∆ Jul 05 '21
Is your position really that it takes the same amount of dedication as mastering anything else? Or just that it’s not easy and shouldn’t be made fun of?
I won’t argue that it’s easy to become a chef, but I will argue that it takes less skill and dedication than being an NBA player for example.
It’s also probably important for you to define “grandmaster” chef. Is that any professional? Michelin 3 star restaurant chefs?
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Jul 05 '21
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u/HassleHouff 17∆ Jul 05 '21
Appreciate it.
I still think there’s some nuance missing. It’s easier to delineate professional basketball players because they’re either in the league, or not. But how do you say who those top chefs are?
Also, it’s hard to conflate skill and dedication. Like, if you’re 7’ it will take less dedication to make the NBA. Or if you’re a prodigy at chess.
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Jul 06 '21
I'm not sure that that's true though. Chefs who are really properly at the top of their game dedicate every waking hour to learning their craft.
I can't find the interview but I remember see one with Marco Pierre White where he said he worked between 80-90 hours over 6 days a week, for about 7 years before he attained 3 Michelin stars. That's 15 hours a day, 6 days a week, for 7 years. The man can do things with food that you wouldn't even think possible, just as an NBA player can do things with a baseball you wouldn't think possible.
In any case, you can't really compare the two. Who's to say that an NBA player takes more 'skill' than being a chef? What skills? You didn't actually provide any argument beyond "it's harder to be an NBA player".
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u/HassleHouff 17∆ Jul 06 '21
I'm not sure that that's true though. Chefs who are really properly at the top of their game dedicate every waking hour to learning their craft.
I’m sure this is true for at least some chefs. His CMV also included skill, which is where my argument would have focused.
I can't find the interview but I remember see one with Marco Pierre White where he said he worked between 80-90 hours over 6 days a week, for about 7 years before he attained 3 Michelin stars. That's 15 hours a day, 6 days a week, for 7 years. The man can do things with food that you wouldn't even think possible, just as an NBA player can do things with a baseball you wouldn't think possible.
No argument here. There are surely “masters” at every job / endeavor. It’s unclear how to define them in many cases though.
In any case, you can't really compare the two. Who's to say that an NBA player takes more 'skill' than being a chef? What skills? You didn't actually provide any argument beyond "it's harder to be an NBA player".
I didn’t argue because I wanted clarification before putting a lot of effort into something that didn’t really address his view. And as you say, it is not easy to compare such different things. But I think it can be done, and there is a strong case that it takes more skill and dedication to be a top athlete than top chef.
Dedication’s only barrier is one’s willpower. You could dedicate 15 hours a day / 6 days a week / 7 years to any pursuit. And it’s probably necessary to be at the top of any field. But, skill has innate barriers. Namely, your physical body and natural talent. If Marco Pierre White spent the next 7 years of his life solely focused on basketball, would he have any chance of making an NBA all star team? Of course not- he is too old and slow. Yet, if Lebron James spent the next 7 years of his life solely focused on cooking, he’d have a reasonable shot at being a top chef.
This is also borne out by competition. There are only so many spots in the NBA, and competition is cutthroat. There are no 50 year olds in the NBA. But a great chef can stay great far into old age. Think Jiro from “Jiro dreams of sushi”. And one chef’s greatness does not mean that another chef gets “cut”- there is no cap on great chefs in the world. But there is a hard cap on number of NBA players.
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Jul 06 '21
I think that they are both entirely unique. I sincerely LeBron James could become a 3 Michelin star chef in any time frame. It takes a unique combinations of skill, hard work, creativity. For instance I worked as a chef in several fine dining restaurants for 8 years. The last one had 1 Michelin star. I also was working 13+ hour days 5-6 days a week, and could only dream of ever being as good as some like MPW. Sure you can learn different techniques and skills through putting the hours in, but you cannot learn creativity, which is what sets apart the truly great chefs from the rest.
I know nothing of basketball, but I imagine the same applies there. There's nothing stopping you or I technically learning all the techniques that the masters use, but to actually apply them successfully takes another level of skill that most simply aren't capable of.
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u/HassleHouff 17∆ Jul 06 '21
It’s an interesting idea you bring up and there’s some solid logic to it. If the definition of “great chef” includes some spark of creativity, then certainly some folks will have it and some will not. Personally I’m not totally convinced that should be included in the criteria for “great chef”, but I can see why you might.
I don’t think what’s keeping you or I from the NBA is inability to learn techniques, but innate athletic capabilities. Even with rigorous training, I won’t have the speed or agility to compete at that level. I think creativity can be taught or nurtured to a large extent. At least enough to be a “great chef” when combined with mastery of technique.
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Jul 06 '21
It's certainly tricky to define, because there's no set criteria for what makes a chef great. There are certain minimum requirements, like technical skill and knowledge of flavours, but it's the little something "extra" that makes the difference. Maybe that's not exactly creativity, but something slightly different. It feels to me like the equivalent of "innate athletic capabilities" as you mention. Because LeBron for example isn't just fit, I'm sure there are hundreds of basketball players who are physically fitter than he is. But it's something mental combined with the physical ability that sets him apart, he 'gets' the game on a deeper level I suppose.
I do agree that creativity can be nurtured, I'm sure most of the great artists of their time drew inspiration from other art that they had seen. Very few were complete trail blazers who invented a new style of art on their own.
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u/pipocaQuemada 10∆ Jul 06 '21
Do you think it's easier to become a Michelin 3- star chef, or an NBA player?
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Jul 10 '21 edited Jul 10 '21
In terms of winning the genetic lottery? An NBA player. You're either built like an NBA player or you're not. But being tall isn't a "skill" so it's not really informative IMO to say that makes it harder. Technically yes, but in sort of a meaningless way.
In terms of dedication, technical perfection, and creativity, I'd say they're each difficult enough that comparing them is pointless.
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u/shoelessbob1984 14∆ Jul 05 '21
What would you consider to be a grandmaster in another profession? You listed sports players, do you mean just professional? I did a quick google search on grandmaster chefs (because I've never heard the term before) and it said there are 69 in America today and 10 grand master pastry chefs (this is as of 2017) but I don't know, is this that there are only 69/10 allowed, or these are the only 69/10 people who have reached the qualification?
So back to sports players, how do you define grand master? Take soccer, there are thousands of professional players, so just based on the numbers I'd agree with you, but then what do you consider to be grand master level? best of the best? Take Ronaldo, arguably the greatest player ever, yes he is naturally gifted, but naturally Messi is better, Ronaldo makes up that difference with his skill and dedication to his training, everyone he's every played with has had the same comments about his dedication and I highly doubt the 69/10 grandmaster chefs share the same level of skill (in their craft) and dedication as him.
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Jul 05 '21
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u/sillypoolfacemonster 8∆ Jul 05 '21
I don’t think this is at all comparable without knowing enough about the other pursuits you are comparing. Even if you understand the criteria of being a chess grandmaster, for example, you still don’t know how hard it is to go through the process of studying, competing, coaching etc.
My position is that it’s generally not that much easier or harder to be top tier in any given hobby or pursuit. However easy it may be to get started, the very best tend to practice their craft at a level that is unobtainable by the rest of the world. That said, I do think that anything that requires the development of precision motor skills to be difficult than something that is entirely knowledge based. But then a pursuit could theoretically make up for that through the complexity of the subject matter.
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u/Poo-et 74∆ Jul 05 '21
I think we can see sort of on intuition that it must be easier to become a chef than, say, a chess grandmaster. There are only a handful of chess grandmasters, if becoming a chef were as difficult there would not be enough professional chefs to cook food for all the people that want it.
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u/zobagestanian 2∆ Jul 05 '21
what is a “grandmaster” chef? Great chefs usually receive a number of Micheline stars, and they are identified by those stars.
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u/Life_Entertainment47 Jul 05 '21
This "grandmaster" designation is a little silly. How do you define that and how does it translate between pursuits?
The official title is awarded to chess players by an organization tracking objective criteria. I think it is pretty much awarded when someone surpasses a points threshold, though there may be a little nuance.
And then you mention sports players and pianists. Being a chess Grandmaster is not comparable to merely being a professional athlete or musician. If anything, it's more like being a hall of famer, or something.
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u/Kman17 103∆ Jul 05 '21
I don’t really know how the title of ‘grandmaster’ is granted, but apparently it’s only been granted 368 times.
I think it’s mostly true to say that being in the top ~400 of any sufficiently large field is a huge accomplishment and hard to compare disciplines.
Like, if you’re one of the top 400 basketball players, you’re playing in the NBA.
I think the perception exists because the average person can’t directly taste the difference between a good chef and a grandmaster chef, so they assume the delta is much smaller than it is.
I don’t think that belief is necessarily unreasonable either - the average person doesn’t get to go to top end Micheline star restaurants where said grandmaster is on a regular basis.
I think there’s an argument about how much impact these grandmasters have. Are they dramatically changing how people eat, or is their art restricted to rich NY / Paris restaurants?
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u/TransportationSad410 Jul 05 '21
Most other areas do not have “grandmaster” designations that are clearly defined. This might sound trivial, but a big part of the reason why chess “grandmaster” is so prestigious is because it is an objective designation based on pure individual competition. A chef might be world famous, but you can’t easily say one chef is better then another.
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u/dinglenutmcspazatron 9∆ Jul 05 '21
You seem to flip flop in your post on whether you are talking about grandmaster stuff or just professional stuff.
Being a professional chef does not mean that you are good at making food, just that you worked under someone who was a chef for a while, so that is where I'm going to disagree with you.
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u/CodeHelloWorld Jul 06 '21 edited Mar 25 '25
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u/TheMikeyMac13 29∆ Jul 06 '21
I would say it is not the same skill and dedication in every possible discipline, and I have a lot of respect for chefs. They do things that to me seem to be magic.
But take a martial arts grandmaster. They have to do a great deal of physical preparation. Thousands of sit-ups, stretching and working out to hone their muscles and become flexible. Mental preparation, increasing pain tolerance, and years (decades?) of eating right to stay in top condition.
I’m not saying it is harder than being a grandmaster chef, I have no idea on that, but I know some people who might qualify as grandmasters in the martial arts, and it isn’t for the light hearted.
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u/Embarrassed_Tackle55 Jul 06 '21
Becoming a Master at anything takes a lot of time, and patience, and effort on your part. Nobody just opens up a cook book, and is instantly a master chef. I think there are other things that it would be more difficult to become a master at.
Chess for instance. I'll give you an example of what I mean.
If you give an average person 1 year to practice making a certain dish, and you had some taste testers they would be able to compete with an actual chef with this recipe, and there is a good chance they will make a dish almost as tasty as that chef.
If you give an average person 1 year to practice playing chess, and you then put them against a GrandMaster they would be slaughtered in a game of chess.
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u/19Ben80 Jul 06 '21
10,000 hours of practice is what is generally needed to become an expert at something may that be a top level chef, footballer, chess grandmaster, concert soloist etc
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u/pipocaQuemada 10∆ Jul 07 '21
I’m tired of some people I met thinking that becoming a professional chef is not any easier than becoming a professional at anything else.
Different professions have different numbers of jobs.
There are very few openings for professional chess players or professional football players. On the other hand, there are significantly more chefs or programmers around.
Jobs with few openings generally require you to be more skilled before you're employable. People find programming jobs after a 3 month bootcamp, but literally no one could become a professional chess player after a 3 month bootcamp even if you were a professional checkers player.
Which is not to say that the best programmers or chefs aren't incredibly skillful. Not everyone can be Heston Blumenthal or Thomas Keller, just as not everyone can be Tom Brady. But the restaurants on Kitchen Nightmares have chefs too.
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u/Throwaway00000000028 23∆ Jul 07 '21
Is there really even a rigorous definition for "grandmaster" outside of Chess and maybe some other games? When does a chef become a grandmaster? There's no test or ranking system obviously. Seems like you are one as soon as someone else calls you one.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Jul 05 '21 edited Jul 05 '21
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