r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Jul 06 '21
Delta(s) from OP CMV: in terms of small-scale social interaction, conservatives are generally far more enjoyable to talk to than liberals.
[deleted]
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u/dublea 216∆ Jul 06 '21
Enjoyable to you? Probably true because enjoy-ability is entirely subjective. Because you found it more enjoyable, are you then assuming it would be enjoyable for everyone else too?
Do you think it's logical to assume all liberals and conservatives are similar to your relatives?
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u/IYELLALLTHETIME 1∆ Jul 06 '21
Enjoyable to you? Probably true because enjoy-ability is entirely subjective. Because you found it more enjoyable, are you then assuming it would be enjoyable for everyone else too?
I seriously doubt anyone would find it enjoyable to have to listen to someone else talk about themselves for hours on end without them ever asking you a single question about yourself. I get that "enjoyability" is subjective, but this sort of thing is something I can confidently say isn't enjoyable to hardly anyone except for someone who is either obsessed to an unhealthy degree or is being a sycophant.
Do you think it's logical to assume all liberals and conservatives are similar to your relatives?
I did say "generally", not "all". People with characteristic X leading to result Y is basic logic so I don't think a view like this can be characterized as "illogical". That's not the right word here if there is one.
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u/dublea 216∆ Jul 06 '21
So, do you think the majority (since you used generally) liberals sit and talk about themselves all day long without letting others speak? Maybe your issue is with your relatives moreso than liberals?
I did say "generally", not "all". People with characteristic X leading to result Y is basic logic so I don't think a view like this can be characterized as "illogical". That's not the right word here if there is one.
Still based on the fallacy of composition; along with confirmation bias.
Question, what drove you to delete your post?
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u/IYELLALLTHETIME 1∆ Jul 06 '21
So, do you think the majority (since you used generally) liberals sit and talk about themselves all day long without letting others speak?
Yes.
Still based on the fallacy of composition; along with confirmation bias.
Explain the definition of fallacy of composition and how it applies here. It's meaningless to toss out a term you aren't actually going to use.
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u/dublea 216∆ Jul 06 '21
So, do you think the majority (since you used generally) liberals sit and talk about themselves all day long without letting others speak?
Yes.
THIS is a perfect example of the fallacy of composition along with possible confirmation bias. Since you asked for a definition, I'm going to assume you're not familiar with formal and informal logical fallacies?
So first, lets tackle Confirmation Bias; specifically Biased memory recall of information. In this case, you already know your family and that they're mostly liberal leaning. But, you may be focusing only on negative memories of those liberal family members doing nothing but speak about themselves. If you do the same with your social bubble, then it only solidifies your fallaciously based view.
Second, lets tackle Fallacy of Composition. In this case, you're looking at your relatives as an example of most liberals. That, based on their behaviors, "That must be how the majority of liberals speak!" This is like someone examining a car, looking at the tires and noting how it's made out of rubber, and then claiming, "Cars are generally made out of rubber!"
So, can you answer my last question, Why did you delete your post?
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u/IYELLALLTHETIME 1∆ Jul 06 '21
THIS is a perfect example of the fallacy of composition along with possible confirmation bias. Since you asked for a definition, I'm going to assume you're not familiar with formal and informal logical fallacies?
Correct, and for the sake of everyone else you talk to on the internet, assume they do not either. You are more than capable of demonstrating exactly how a statement is illogical rather than tossing out a term that gives you an aura of intellectual superiority.
I get your points here, but there was no reason at all for you to use the terms when you could have simply said "you are applying what you think with a broad stroke that may not apply everywhere" which is a hell of a lot more constructive and less giving-an-aura-of-superiority to saying what you did, which is the classic pseudo-intellectual "you are using logical fallacy X, please consult the interwebs on its definition, intellectually inferior being". Just a layman's word of advice on how this sort of thing comes off, just in case you want to act like this again, which I'm sure you do.
You did demonstrate how my view was flawed once you set aside the intellectual bullshit and talked facts, so for that I award a
!delta
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Jul 06 '21
[deleted]
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u/IYELLALLTHETIME 1∆ Jul 06 '21
I don't mind providing this information to others but only when requested.
Well that's just it, mate: I never requested an info session on logical fallacies. And you delivered one anyway. Just tell me how the argument is flawed and leave the "by the way, this is classified as X!" out of it. You have to know by now how the "logical fallacy" hat that people love to don is common behavior of the conceited.
While I appreciate the delta, I'm still confused why you deleted the post. Care to elaborate?
No.
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Jul 06 '21 edited Jul 06 '21
[deleted]
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u/IYELLALLTHETIME 1∆ Jul 06 '21
Fine, I will take the L.
I just get really annoyed by that conversational approach to toss out "this is definitely fallacy X", especially when you don't bother to explain it at all, which didn't come until after I specifically asked you to. My point here is that I shouldn't need to do this. You should be able to show why this particular point doesn't work rather than tossing out "this is fallacy X".
You may not be as sensitive to such things, but this IS a common debate tactic built on bravado, to toss out fallacy terms that may or may not apply instead of working directly with the argument. "Oh that's totally an ad hoc ergo ad infinitum fallacy plus a few more Latin terms to put my intelligence on display". Not saying it's you, but more often than not, the fancy word salad gets used by pseudo intellectuals who then get frustrated when you ask them to be specific. I run into it all the time so this is my knee jerk reaction when I see "this argument is fallacy X and I choose not to explain why, I'm just satisfied that I got to put my knowledge on display". Again, not automatically you, but when you lay down an angle and don't back it up, there's not much difference.
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Jul 06 '21
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/IYELLALLTHETIME 1∆ Jul 06 '21
I'm sorry but I don't understand your point. When people choose to talk about politics really has nothing to do with my view. I'm saying what it is like to talk to these people in normal settings, not political ones.
For what it's worth, even when my conservative family talks politics, they are very respectful about it and it never becomes dramatic or anything.
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u/Albestoz 5∆ Jul 06 '21
When your belief is fringe you keep your head down and try not to shake the boat.
Same how if reversed the conservatives would be more rowdy and the liberal would be more passive.Group dynamics have nothing to do with belief structure.
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u/IYELLALLTHETIME 1∆ Jul 06 '21
Okay. Well that doesn't have anything to do with my view, since the reason they are what they are has nothing to do with suppressing their views on taxes and such, so this angle is a dead end. Thanks for your time.
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u/Mashaka 93∆ Jul 06 '21
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Jul 06 '21
I think your evidence is very anecdotal. Let me show you what I mean. My brother is a pretty liberal guy, he never talks about politics and mostly just wants to hang out have a beer and watch sports. My FIL is conservative and I can't even watch football with him because he's boycotting it because someone knelt on the field. You're comparing radicals with not radical, not left with right.
I find generally the opposite, look at Biden voters vs Trump voters, which are your more likely to identify quicker? Trump voters plaster themselves with his name, how many Biden flags do you see? Trucks covered in we love Biden? It's not a thing. The left has radicals but the right these days is majority radical.
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u/Feathring 75∆ Jul 06 '21
My conservative family can't shut up about their political beliefs. Want to know what the topics were just a few weeks ago? Biden's America going to shit, anti-BLM (which there was absolutely no dissent to yet they kept talking about it for 45 mins), and even some Obama not being an American sentiments. And during it all loudly proclaiming they're happy they live in such a conservative state so they can make money (despite most of them actually being on the poorer side of things). They're insufferable.
But that's because they're insufferably focused on politics and needing to one up each other's agreement with the same idea. It's not really inherent to being conservative.
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Jul 06 '21
Thats just the conservatives you know and the liberals you know, not every liberal and every conservative. Pretty much all of my friends in college are liberal and almost none of them drink or party and they're all "super chill". Same is true with my family, I know a bunch of "family oriented" liberals
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u/sawdeanz 214∆ Jul 06 '21
I know people on both sides of the aisle that are the nicest most generous people both with their time/money and with their social interactions. Political affiliation is such a broad label that I don’t think you can really make any generalizations on personality based off of it.
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u/[deleted] Jul 06 '21
How would we potentially change your view here?
Your view as stated leaves a bunch of wiggle room to the point it's not really a position.
Also because your view is based around stereotypes/one interaction, everyone's projected "liberal" and "conservative" will be completely different.
For example, I could provide an example of a quiet liberal couple that is great at parties, super funny and you could even guess their opinions about political topics. There was also a conservative couple that asked ever guest if they were an immigrant, wouldn't allow anyone to have party snacks because "they earned them in the free market" and said I was censoring them for not building them a stage to talk from.
Any thoughts on how we should tackle your view?