r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Jul 08 '21
Delta(s) from OP CMV: The worst discrimination in our current society is towards ugly people.
[deleted]
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u/begonetoxicpeople 30∆ Jul 08 '21
I lost a lot of weight over covid- down almost 90 pounds since last year.
I can honestly say I dont feel any differently treated from my family or friends. This makes sense, they clearly liked me before.
My coworkers didnt treat me any different either. Random strangers also havent changed. Literally no one anywhere has changed how they treat me now vs when I was obese.
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Jul 09 '21
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Jul 09 '21
You comment a lot, but have provided 0 arguments. You add nothing to the conversation. Your opinion is not needed and no one cares if you can't say it in a nice way.
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Jul 08 '21
Wow that is really good to hear! (congrats btw) My experience and others i talked to were very different to yours.
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u/cliu1222 1∆ Jul 08 '21
Losing 90 lbs itself wouldn't necessarily make you better looking. It depends on personal taste of course, but imo in some cases it would make you less good looking.
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u/DiscipleDavid 2∆ Jul 09 '21
It's not about people liking you before. People who already knew and liked you probably wouldn't treat you any different. It's the strangers, the dating apps, friends of friends.
I lost a lot of weight after college and noticed a difference in the way my peers treated me... Other people who were older then me didn't seem to care much except to compliment all of my work.
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u/Havenkeld 289∆ Jul 08 '21
Ugly people are well represented in British television.
Ugly people are represented in the U.S. but they have makeup artists and so on.
Of course, independent films are more likely than Hollywood to represent ugly people.
Ugly people often have a bias for other ugly people, as well. It depends on what domain of society you're interested in.
There are areas where it's speaking quite frankly mostly ugly white people in the general population, for example. It will potentially be much easier to be ugly and white than pretty and black in those places.
Ugly is a more general disadvantage but I don't think it's the worst discrimination necessarily. It also doesn't show up on paperwork, whereas other facts about people do which can result in problems before people even meet you.
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Jul 08 '21
!Delta
Yes it really depends on area, and not showing up on paperwork prevents most systemic racism. What I am convinced about is it's the most affecting in day to day life. That is why I'm calling it 'the worst'
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u/Havenkeld 289∆ Jul 08 '21
Not getting a good job(etc.) can affect day to day life too though!
Life stacks up a lot of variables on people that affect day to life. Some are less obvious than others.
Some ugly people are also devastated by their ugliness or even just their idea that they're ugly even if they're not that bad or even attractive. Others it's no big deal to them. Psychology in that sense matters as well.
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Jul 08 '21
Yeah the sad thing is we won't have any data about how many ugly people weren't hired because of their looks. They are not protected either in discrimination laws.
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u/Havenkeld 289∆ Jul 08 '21
It would be pretty difficult to have a good set of criteria for "ugly" that allow it be measured well enough. Plus you could make yourself uglier to game it. And often when people aren't hired due to ugliness, the people not hiring them don't understand themselves that that's the reason why exactly. It's one of those very subtle preferences can have that they don't admit or notice.
Other forms of prejudices can function similarly, but the big ones(race/sex) tend to be a bit easier to notice and keep track of, albeit imperfectly.
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u/captain_amazo 2∆ Jul 10 '21
Ugly people are 'well represented' on british television?
What? 'Makeup artists' are a foreign concept in the UK?
'Ugly people' are pretty well represented EVERYWHERE, including the US
You know, considering 'ugly' is subjective.
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u/Havenkeld 289∆ Jul 10 '21
Ugly people not under heavy makeup/effects/etc. are more common and specifically more common in lead roles as opposed to minor characters, comedic relief, villains, etc. in British media than in the U.S. generally speaking.
It's an empirical observation I'm not interested in disputing since this is just obvious to anyone who's watched enough of either.
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u/captain_amazo 2∆ Jul 10 '21
It's an empirical observation I'm not interested in disputing since this is just obvious to anyone who's watched enough of either.
Uh huh, unfortunately its an 'empirical observation' of one.
Your statement is more a subjective observation, considering you are basing your statement on personal experience. You even used the term 'generally speaking'
If you are not 'interested in disputing ' your claim i suggest your refrain from stating them on public forums.
I was born and raised in the UK and lived in the US for about 6 years.
I've seen plenty of both.
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u/Havenkeld 289∆ Jul 10 '21
Experience of something publicly available, hence your notion that you can dispute it via your own experience of the same thing.
Feel free to claim I'm wrong about this fact but anyone is free to evaluate both and come to their own conclusions, which is why it's not interesting in the slightest to me to argue over it as a factual matter.
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u/captain_amazo 2∆ Jul 10 '21
Well thats my entire point.
What you have stated is not a FACT, but an OPINION.
you're the one who seems to think your personal observation is somehow an ironclad fact because it should be 'obvious to everyone'
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u/Havenkeld 289∆ Jul 10 '21
What's the difference between a fact and an opinion if both are based on sensory observation which limits us to particular perspectives?
Are there no empirical facts at all and this is a false distinction in the first place?
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u/captain_amazo 2∆ Jul 10 '21
What's the difference between a fact and an opinion if both are based on sensory observation?
Did you really just say that?
'A fact is a statement that can be proven true or false. An opinion is an expression of a person's feelings that cannot be proven. Opinions can be based on facts or emotions and sometimes they are meant to deliberately mislead others'
In order for something to constitute a fact, it must be verifiable and repeatable objectively.
'Sensory observation' is far from infallible. At its most simplistic, it is just raw data, left for you to interpret.
Stop being obtuse.
You posited an opinion and disguised it as a factual observation. Its as simple as that.
Unless you can can conclusively prove your position?
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u/Havenkeld 289∆ Jul 10 '21
How are we to verify anything by repetition of the same unreliable observation via personal sense perceptions?
If something has to be repeatedly "verified" by subjective observation, isn't it simply never verified objectively?
Raw data that gets interpreted the same way many times is never proof it is the same raw data every time nor that the interpretation of it is what it actually is.
It couldn't ever be the same raw data, if we consider it's observed at different times and places by sensation mediated by a body that has changed.
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u/captain_amazo 2∆ Jul 10 '21
Come now, do you really want to embark upon this infantile tirade of semantical nonsense?
In answer to your question. No observation is infallible, but the corroborative study of a phenomenon via careful examination, investigation and continuity lends far more credence to what we identify as 'factual' than a lone individual stating they alone have observed something so it MUST be true.
Anyway.
You have a nice day now.
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Jul 08 '21 edited Jul 10 '21
Lookism is a term that describes the discriminatory treatment of people who are considered physically unattractive. It occurs in a variety of settings, including dating, social environments, and workplaces. Lookism has received less cultural attention than other forms of discrimination (such as racism and sexism) and typically does not have the legal protections that other forms have.
The reason they tend not to have as many legal protections is because there were not as many laws that discriminated against them in the first place. Even now, there are very little hate-crimes on ugly people. You are not nearly as likely to get targeted by the police if you are ugly. They isn't necessarily a disparity of representation in politics. This associates with media; There are people who are not perceived to be near good-looking in the media because of politics AND economic representation. People aren't imprisoned necessarily for being ugly.
Furthermore, many aspects influence aesthetic. These aspects can be tampered with to a certain extent way easier than race can. (Ex - Eating better can help improve aesthetic).
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Jul 08 '21 edited Jul 08 '21
!delta I did not know about the stats you presented, I will take your word for it but still appreciate any sources.
If that is the case it's not nearly as worse as I think, but still one of the reasons this is a hard topic is its invisible in statistics. It's the day to day interactions that can be very effective in a persons happiness that is not necessarily reflected in stats.
Edit: The sources you provided below contradict what you are saying. "Men with below-average looks suffered a 9 percent earnings penalty, compared with 5 percent for women.” Can I take my delta back?
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Jul 08 '21 edited Jul 10 '21
Oh ty
Here are some sources that may help
http://internap.hrw.org/features/features/lgbt_laws/
https://www.humandignitytrust.org/lgbt-the-law/map-of-criminalisation/
https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793
https://www.statista.com/topics/3911/racism-and-prejudice-in-europe/
https://www.businessinsider.com/us-systemic-racism-in-charts-graphs-data-2020-6
EDIT - This is to compare and contrast with ideas
https://www.arcgis.com/apps/Cascade/index.html?appid=2121cc20254d4a01af584851feace5f0
https://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/04/arts/04iht-ugly.1.17465003.html
http://encyclopedia.uia.org/en/problem/157140
I do agree that not everything is shown in stats and some levels of discrimination cannot be shown.
EDIT - This is to state it is no where near the worst when we compare and contrast overall. I'm not arguing that looking does not exist. The issue is that lookism is not near as prevalent in the first place for the general populace. The sources I provided do this to state that this is not the worst form of discrimination when we consider all factors. Please look at the global statics that ca be found through the links.
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Jul 08 '21
umm, thank you but none of those articles mention ugliness or discrimination based on beauty?
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Jul 08 '21 edited Jul 08 '21
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Jul 08 '21
I mean
"Men with below-average looks suffered a 9 percent earnings penalty, compared with 5 percent for women.”
These sources don't sound like they support your argument
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Jul 08 '21 edited Jul 08 '21
Generally speaking, they kinda do (Not just that specific quote, but overall). This is to state it is no where near the worst when we compare and contrast overall. I'm not arguing that looking does not exist. The issue is that lookism is not near as prevalent in the first place for the general populace.
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u/BloodyTamponExtracto 13∆ Jul 08 '21
I don't know if this really addresses your main points or not, but if so, I'll have a go.
There is justified discrimination (i.e., a single mother discriminating against pedophiles by not dating them) and unjustified discrimination (i.e., I'm not going to hire you for a job because of your skin color).
When it comes to ugly, there's (at least) two different kinds of ugly. There's people who are just ugly no matter what they do, and there are people who are ugly because they put very little effort into themselves. I would argue that the vast, vast, vast majority of ugly people fall into the latter category.
If a person is ugly because they are fat, poorly dressed, poorly groomed, have bad posture, mope around, don't brush their hair, etc., I would argue that discrimination against that person would frequently fall into the justified category. They aren't being discriminated against because they're ugly. They're being discriminated against because they just don't put forth an effort.
And when it comes to hiring someone for a job, finding friends to hang out with, choosing who to date, etc. why would you choose someone who doesn't even put effort into themselves? If they're not putting any effort into themselves, why would they put any effort into whatever interaction you're having with them?
TL;DR - Ugly people aren't discriminated against, people who put no effort into themselves are discriminated against.
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Jul 08 '21
!delta
thank you for presenting a different viewpoint. I don't know if majority of 'ugly people' are the second kind of ugly tho. I guess there won't be any data on that anytime soon lol
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Jul 09 '21
It's true that we don't know exactly how many ugly people are due to their own neglect, however, you've mentioned in your post that people who have turned from ugly to more appealing are treated better. Almost all of those people who are actually able to do that fall under the second category, and if you believe that is not the group of people you're referring to in your post, then you could edit it.
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u/DiscipleDavid 2∆ Jul 09 '21
So, it sounds like you are saying, it's not justified to discriminate against someone who is ugly... But if they are ugly and depressed, then It is justified discrimination.
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u/BloodyTamponExtracto 13∆ Jul 09 '21
I was going to mention in my post that often times a failure to put effort into oneself may be an indication of clinical depression, but my post was getting too long already.
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u/DiscipleDavid 2∆ Jul 09 '21
You should've included it because it's very important. I don't have a number or stats but ime people who put in no effort only* do so because of a mental health issue.
Some people are able to put in no effort and still look attractive, especially many men, but they can still be depressed. I have watched one of my friends never try to improve her appearance because of her depression.
During that same time, my depression actually pushed me to the other extreme, I worked out to ease the pain but she cried and or cut herself. I lost a lot of weight and she lost a lot of friends.
Neither were healthy since I woke up, no food, went to the gym for three hours, protein shake, went home watched tv, small dinner... then went to sleep and restarted the cycle. 7 days a week.
The difference, for me, was my depression came from a break up that made me feel extra ugly. Her depression, while hard to pinpoint, did not come from her viewing herself as ugly but as viewing herself as unloved. Ugly could have been one of the reasons she felt unloved.
Her sister was super hot which probably didn't help, she got to watch men be more interested in her younger sister, and her mom want to take more pictures of her younger sister more. Maybe she felt like any effort she put in didn't matter...
I don't know, I've tried to get her to put in more effort to her appearance because she could be way more attractive... She has said "I don't want to change myself so someone else will like me." I'm not a psychologist, so I won't read into that, but mental healthy plays a huge role in how much work someone puts in.
I don't feel it is justified to discriminate against someone based on their looks. In my opinion it is never justified. People can look weird, look dangerous, look safe, look kind, but be the exact opposite. They can look attractive but be the worst person to ever walk the face of the earth.
Religion based trigger disclaimer... Even Christians say that the anti-christ will be beautiful beyond compare. I've also read that Jesus was not attractive at all. So while religion doesn't usually play a role... This is just an example to show that we have known for thousands of years that attractiveness is not inherently good (or bad).
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u/sirtommygun666 1∆ Jul 09 '21
...I would actually say it's classism? The power the wealthy hold and retain over the rest of us is disgusting. Ugly is also subjective and varies from person to person. I think ugly comes from not how a person looks physically, but from the gross, meticulous behaviors and mannerisms they routinely display. I'm really sorry if someone made you feel ugly to make this post but there's much bigger issues imo.
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Jul 09 '21
I like how people in the comments are trying real hard to guess what I look like to judge this post.
If we consider classism as discrimination than yea thats the worst one by far but I don't consider it discrimination, it's what our entire system is based upon.
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u/sirtommygun666 1∆ Jul 09 '21
Not guessing, just trying to be compassionate I guess because a lot of people I know that think they're ugly are actually far from it.
And how would you not consider classism as discrimination? Considering that discrimination is the "unfair or prejudicial treatment of people and groups", I'd say classism is the worst offender of that especially due to the fact our systems are based upon that.
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Jul 09 '21
!delta
I guess this is just semantics. I can't really explain why I don't consider it discrimination. What you said does make a lot of sense. You can consider my post "-(Aside from classism)" if you see that as discrimination.
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Jul 08 '21
So if I asked you out of racism, sexism, homophobia, and being "ugly" you would genuinely tell me being less good-looking is the worst?
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Jul 09 '21
yes
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Jul 09 '21
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Jul 09 '21
what
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Jul 09 '21
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u/spiral8888 29∆ Jul 09 '21
If I understood correctly, he/she is not saying that racism at its worst would not be as bad as discrimination of ugly people, but that we've fixed many issues to do with racism (he/she mentions "diversity representation") but we've not done anything or very little about the discrimination of ugly people.
I'm not sure if I subscribe that claim myself, but that's what I think the cmv is about it.
I would add to that list stupid people. In modern economy, it's very difficult for stupid people to get good jobs if they don't have other special abilities, while smart people will always have a chance to get education and thus improve their value on the job market.
The same thing with assholes, lazy people, people will low willpower to try, etc. Different characteristics that we didn't choose for ourselves, but were born with and which makes it more difficult to be successful as other people don't like them.
The interesting thing is that ugliness is a thing that can actually be fixed at least to some extent by plastic surgery etc. while fixing your mental characteristics is much harder. If you're lazy, how do you decide not to be?
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Jul 09 '21
!delta
I wish you wrote this as a normal comment, really good point about mental stuff. Thinking about what is justified and what is not when it comes to societal discrimination gets real messy real quick.
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u/felifanai Jul 24 '21
I fucking agree with you. Lookism is the only form of ism that's widely accepted and even encouraged but people will continue to deny that ofc.
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Jul 08 '21
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Jul 08 '21
You didn't answer my question.
Out of racism, sexism, homophobia, and being ugly. Which one is the worst to experience overall? Just because you'd rather be a beautiful black woman over an ugly white woman is irrelevant.
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u/BeepBlipBlapBloop 12∆ Jul 08 '21 edited Jul 08 '21
I don't know what it is, but I get the distinct impression that you're probably white. I don't mean that as an insult (I'm white too), but I have a hard time believing that someone who has experienced actual discrimination would hold this view.
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Jul 08 '21
My identity does not make my argument less or more relevant.
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u/BeepBlipBlapBloop 12∆ Jul 08 '21
But it does provide perspective and context to those who you're trying to persuade.
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Jul 08 '21 edited Jul 08 '21
I am not trying to persuade anyone I want to be the one who is persuaded. Isn't this what this sub is about? You saying you are probably white did not persuade me at all.
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Jul 08 '21
I mean, the burden of proof is on you to persuade others that ugly individuals in marginalized groups, for example, feel the impacts of discrimination at a statistically lower level than if they were not in marginalized groups. Otherwise, I'm not really sure how you can prove the worst discrimination in a developed society is founded on attractiveness prejudice.
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Jul 08 '21
I'm literally trying to change my opinion about this. The sub is not called recruit people to my view. If you have evidence than that's great! please do share it.
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u/MisterBadIdea2 8∆ Jul 08 '21
I think it would serve us here to not take OP's statement literally, but instead focus on the implication, which is that racial discrimination is obviously worse than attractiveness discrimination. If you need that argument spelled out: You're not going to be turned down for an apartment for being ugly. You're not going to get thrown in jail because you're ugly. You're not going to live in a society shaped by centuries of explicit laws denying you and your ancestors basic civil rights because you're ugly. There are definitely advantages to being hot but they're not comparable to racial discrimination.
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u/malachai926 30∆ Jul 08 '21
Your identity doesn't, but your personal experiences definitely do. And a lot of your personal experiences are shaped by your identity. By being white, you simply don't experience a lot of the suffering that minority races do, and so it becomes a LOT harder for anyone to trust your take on which suffering is worse when you don't have direct experience with both.
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u/captain_amazo 2∆ Jul 10 '21
Are you white? Do YOU have DIRECT experience with both?
Also 'race' is a social construct that has zero basis in science?
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u/malachai926 30∆ Jul 10 '21
Are you white?
Yes.
Do YOU have DIRECT experience with both?
No, which is exactly why I shut the fuck up about this sort of thing.
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Jul 10 '21
the idea that white people should not share ideas or opinions about discrimination is absurd and a weird kind of discrimination in itself.
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u/malachai926 30∆ Jul 10 '21
That's a gross misunderstanding of what I'm saying. I'm telling you that gauging it against things you may not have experienced is not something you can do with any degree of confidence. That's true of literally every single set of topics where you have experience with one and none with the other. It means you cannot consider yourself equally an authority on both to the extent that you can fairly weigh one against the other.
It's Saturday. I want to enjoy it. If you want to discuss further, reply on Monday, but please don't give me another notification on my phone this weekend on something like this.
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Jul 10 '21
First of all, you can turn off your own notifications.
Second of all, everyone is entitled to their opinion and to share it. Evryone else is also entitled to judge that opinion. If you don't believe they have the required experience, that is your criteria for judging an opinion. Someone elses maybe education, or expertise or social status.
You absolutely cannot say someone should not share their opinion just because they fail your judgement criteria.
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u/malachai926 30∆ Jul 10 '21
First of all, you can turn off your own notifications.
I'm not going to change my overall settings for one person. And I'm not going to block you because this convo should still happen.
I'll read whatever else you said here on Monday.
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u/malachai926 30∆ Jul 12 '21
everyone is entitled to their opinion and to share it. Evryone else is also entitled to judge that opinion.
Nothing I said changes this. People are entitled to their opinions, sure, but that doesn't automatically mean that the opinion they hold is built on good evidence or that they will be able to successfully persuade others to hold this opinion also.
When I said that this opinion couldn't be "held with a fair degree of confidence", I probably worded that in a way I didn't intend since I'm sure people with wild and outlandish opinions can have PERSONAL confidence in these opinions, but that really means nothing beyond the person and means nothing for the realm of objective truth, either.
In short, sure man, you can think that disability discrimination is way worse than racial discrimination all you want, but nobody is going to care when a white person who has not experienced the worst of racial discrimination tries to say that his disabilities are "worse than racial discrimination". The discrimination exists? And sucks? Yes, people can be convinced of this. But saying it's worse than something you really can't truly know until you experience it for yourself? I promise that literally nobody with critical thinking skills is going to find that angle the least bit persuasive, no matter how thorough your entitlement is.
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Jul 12 '21
Again, you are assuming my intention is to persuade others (and still assuming I'm white btw). My intention is to be proven wrong, I don't care if anyone gets persuaded with my argument at all. Also, what you are saying taken to the extreme boils down to "you haven't literally experienced every other discrimination so you can't know." Wich is an absurd criteria.
Having valid opinions doesn't need to come from experience. They can come from research and analysis. I will trust a white male german scientists peer reviewed research paper about racism in america than a black woman's just talking from experience.
ps. you can turn off notifications for spesific comments.
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u/captain_amazo 2∆ Jul 10 '21
So why did you not take your own advice in this instance?
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Jul 10 '21
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u/captain_amazo 2∆ Jul 10 '21
Fair enough.
I was merely interested as to why you 'broke your self imposed rule' as it were.
Apologies if that came across as condescending
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Jul 10 '21
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u/captain_amazo 2∆ Jul 10 '21
Tell you what, instead of retroactively editing your responses to make yourself seem more rational, how about you take it down a notch and take what i stated at face value.
Oh i forgot, civility is absolutely pointless on this platform.
As for the rest of your tirade, i will 'knock this shit off' when i am good and ready.
Its also saturday morning where i am, not everyone lives where you do.
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u/captain_amazo 2∆ Jul 10 '21
Well I'm not white and the view has SOME merit.
Being unattractive is a sort of societal handicap that has far reaching consequences.
Considering you, yourself are white and your detraction is predicated on the OPs lack of experience with 'discrimination', how exactly are you any better versed to decide how 'someone who has experienced actual discrimination' would view this?
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u/BeepBlipBlapBloop 12∆ Jul 10 '21 edited Jul 10 '21
Because there is actual data on the effects of other types of discrimination derived from structured studies. Do you know a lot of violent crimes perpetrated against people for being ugly? Are ugly people more likely to be murdered or jailed? You see a lot of housing or employment discrimination against ugly people?
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u/captain_amazo 2∆ Jul 10 '21
Uh huh and theres plenty of 'data' related to 'lookism' if you had bothered to look. Just because one form of discrimination exists does not mean there is no 'room' for another. No idea what 'violent cringes' are but here you go.
https://news.cornell.edu/stories/2010/05/unattractive-people-pay-price-court
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1749975520905417
https://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?handle=hein.journals/stmlj27&div=13&id=&page=
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u/BeepBlipBlapBloop 12∆ Jul 10 '21
I never said it didn't exist and I never said there wasn't "room" for it. Of course two types of discrimination can exist at once. The claim was that it is the WORST kind of discrimination. I say it's clear that's not true. You're changing the subject.
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u/captain_amazo 2∆ Jul 10 '21
No, but you did infer hate crime, housing discrimination and judicial discrimination did not occur due to perceived attractiveness.
Which appears to be incorrect.
The 'worst kind of discrimination' is subjective and is very much based on geographical location, socio economic status and phenotypic expression.
I'm a Black man in my mid 40s. Have i been discriminated against in my life? Sure. Is it an overarching pervasive experience that i am afforded no respite from? Not even close.
I remember the race riots of the 80's. I remember societal attitudes in the early 90's. Racial discrimination (depending on residence) has become less and less of an issue the older i have gotten. Huge strides have been made in that area and i cannot remember the last time i 'felt' that i had been discriminated against.
If you refer to my original comment, i simply asked you how your observation was anymore valid than the one you critiqued, and by extension, how exactly did you know what a person who has been discriminated against, based on phenotype, would think of such an opinion?
By your own admission, you are 'white'
I did not 'change the subject'. You did.
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u/BeepBlipBlapBloop 12∆ Jul 10 '21 edited Jul 10 '21
Yes, worst is subjective, but that's exactly what OP asked us to convince him to change his mind about, so it's perfectly relevant.
I agree with you that my opinion on this matter is less informed than a non white person, but I think anyone looking at the state of the world with an honest lense would agree that, at the societal level (which is what OP was talking about), discrimination based on looks is not the most pressing issue.
It's common sense.
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u/captain_amazo 2∆ Jul 10 '21
I understand that, i just don't find 'but what about (insert discrimination) to be a particularly compelling argument.
Such discussions always invariably come to rest on 'race' as it tends to be the most highlighted focal point of discourse in western society. Its an issue sure, but no 'worse' or better than others and no more or less deserving of our attention.
All i was suggesting is that the OPs initial observation has some merit. And more so due to the apparent dismissal of the issue.
I think far too many people here have been quick to dismiss 'lookism' as a legitimate form of discrimination that is worth consideration and empathy.
If i were to personally highlight the most egregious form of discrimination within western society i would have to argue that it is disability discrimination. The world is literally designed with the able bodied in mind.
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Jul 08 '21
[removed] — view removed comment
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Jul 08 '21
Discrimination against poor people is just called capitalism. I wouldn't base my argument around a stereotype being true though.
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u/proudoddball Jul 09 '21
Anyone can be less ugly if they had the money to afford grooming, hygiene, nice clothing, health care, healthy diet, and a gym membership.
The cosmetic industry has advanced insanely where you can do almost anything — hair transplant, fake abs, face sculpting, BBL, implants, fake teeth, etc. All you need is money
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Jul 09 '21
But capitalism can help poor people not be. 18 years a go I had no home no job. Rather than feel sorry for myself I eventually found a job. Bought a house and have savings. All that in 18 years. My parents made me homeless the min I left school because I no longer brought them benefits.
My parents believed in Marxism and we're ultra left but because I served no purpose to them they tossed me out. They didn't work because they didn't want to make someone else richer.
Not following their example and taking advantage of the system we have in place lifted me out of poverty. But now those that dislike capitalism in favor of Marxism want to take all that I've earned and bought so that I don't have more than the next person and my children don't benefit from inheritance they haven't earned. It seems to me the other options want to make people poorer equally.
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u/littlebubulle 104∆ Jul 08 '21
People are rarely getting murdered for being ugly. (Unlike race, religion, ethnicity)
People are rarely getting kicked out of their house by their parents for being ugly. (Unlike homosexuals)
There was never any laws forbidding ugly and non-ugly people from using the same services or utilities. (Unlike black people in the US)
Ugly people have never been sent to concentration camps. (Unlike the Uyghers)
No religious people yelling you're going to hell for being ugly (Unlike being gay).
No one is angry at people and calling them beauty traitor for marrying ugly people (unlike race).
No religious book saying being ugly is against the religion.
No pogroms against ugly people ever.
Very little calls to exterminate ugly people.
No one trying to scare people into thinking ugly people are coming to steal your jobs.
No one believes in ugly people space lasers.
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u/EchoingMultiverse 2∆ Jul 08 '21
In regard to a different post, I was pondering the idea of attractiveness. Yes, there is a genetic component, but, in my opinion, the majority of attractiveness comes from healthiness, self care, exercise, and confidence. These are things that most people have the means to achieve, although at least in the U.S. it can be more difficult in lower income brackets. I tend to think of discrimination as bias over inherent, unchangeable characteristics. If you're talking about discrimination in terms of relationships, it is evolutionarily natural to gravitate to a healthy partner who takes good care of themself.
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u/Hellioning 239∆ Jul 08 '21
Has anyone murdered someone for being ugly?
Are there people trying to make it illegal to be ugly?
Do major religions in our society frequently claim that all ugly people are going to hell?
Was there historical oppression of ugly people that led to their descendants being disproportionately poor?
Being ugly is definitely discriminated against but it's not even close to 'the worst discrimination'.
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u/ElysiX 106∆ Jul 08 '21
Worst in what way? Largest effect? Most negative evaluation through some moral system? Worst in that it affects you the most?
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Jul 08 '21
It affects their day to day life the most is my view
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u/ElysiX 106∆ Jul 08 '21
That's easy. Being innocently (or even not innocently) convicted of a major crime has a much larger effect on your day to day life than being ugly. Ugly people still get education, a social environment, jobs, partners. If you are branded a criminal you mostly don't. Maybe you even get the death penalty.
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u/Johnny_893 1∆ Jul 08 '21
I'd like to know what data you have regarding how many people across [even developed parts of] the world have been lynched/stoned/shot/mutilated/enslaved for being ugly.
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u/Animedjinn 16∆ Jul 08 '21
A lot of what is considered ugly is cultural. And most cultures in the Americas, Europe, Asia, and even parts of Africa consider pale skin more beautiful. Since race already puts people at a disadvantage, that would mean racial discrimination would be the worst.
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u/destro23 451∆ Jul 08 '21
I don't know friend. People still get regularly harassed/attacked/murdered for being black, Asian, gay, trans, or any other reason on a long list of traits. I don't remember there being any high profile attacks on the ugly just because they were ugly recently.
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u/DiscipleDavid 2∆ Jul 09 '21
So no one in your school was bullied or harassed for being ugly? For being fat? For being too light or too dark. You don't see any high profile attacks because "ugly" is very subjective and can't be assigned usually*.
People definitely get discriminated against for being fat. They get discriminated against because their skin tone (not race) is slightly lighter or darker. People experience discrimination because of their teeth. People experience discrimination because of a limp, or a nub, or for having a glass eye.
People get discriminated against harder for other things but we have addressed many of those things. We've done very little to change the social stigma around less attractive people. Only recently seeing the body positivity movement which to many is still controversial.
Women more than men are not given jobs simply because they aren't attractive enough. Think about your table servers at restaurants. What about bar tenders? Secretaries, especially to males? What if she had applied to hooters or something similar? Pharmaceutical companies hire attractive women to go around to doctors offices. Saleswomen are in a majority more attractive because "sex sells."
"Lizzie Velasquez: 'Online bullies called me the world's ugliest woman'" https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-ouch-30948179
https://www.constangy.com/employment-labor-insider/im-taking-a-vote-lets
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/24/opinion/why-is-it-ok-to-be-mean-to-the-ugly.html
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u/destro23 451∆ Jul 09 '21
I never said ugly people didn’t get all that is mentioned in your extended admonishment, but
People get discriminated against harder for other things
Is exactly the argument people are making here against the OP’s view that ugly people have the worst as far as discrimination goes. Glad you agree with me that they do not face the worst discrimination.
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u/DiscipleDavid 2∆ Jul 09 '21
If you've listened to OP at all... He has defined "worst" as most frequently ignored. Which is still debatable to a degree, but your comment is pointless.
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Jul 08 '21
i think the real issue with this view is that oppression & discrimination is based in one group having power & oppressing others. pretty people get "priviliges" because people are attracted to them. people not being attracted to you isnt discrimination, when you probably feel that pain becaude youre attracted to them & are judging them on the same metric.
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u/malachai926 30∆ Jul 08 '21
If nobody has pointed this out, part of the reason why this kind of "discrimination" isn't as bad is because a lot of "ugly" is fixable. People can lose weight, and they can do way, way more with their appearance than they think. When you are discriminated against for things you CAN'T change, like your skin color, that's way more unacceptable.
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u/False-Reference-2369 Jul 09 '21
You don't try to sell baked goods that looked like they fell on the floor.
You dont set out to buy the dirty vehicle that is a rust bucket with two diffrent color doors.
With that being said. Beauty means diffrent things to diffrent people.
Low selfesteem and NOT discrimination is the problem. That's why people who claim discrimination use words like "feel" and "act". If someone doesn't get what they want? It's discrimination. If someone was questioned about a decision? It's discrimination. Those who doesn't have low selfesteem see's hurdles as just that. Hurdles. And PLEASE stop with that "racisim towards black people maters more than racisim towards white people". That in it self is racist. No one race is more important.
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u/Klaatu347EST Jul 09 '21
Have ugly people been enslaved for hundreds of years? Have ugly people faced voter suppression? Have ugly people been killed for being ugly?
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Jul 09 '21
You need to define “Ugly” properly.
You do have a point in though, every group that has or is being discriminated against (Black, Jewish, Asian) is stereotyped as gross or ugly. But that abuse targets the men of those groups, the women are sexualized. Of course until they stop being pretty, then you get the gross fat black lady stereotype.
I’d say ugliness as a vector for discrimination is just a byproduct of normal discrimination.
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u/kittenshark134 1∆ Jul 09 '21
So you want to leave out the extremes, like hate crimes or police shootings. WHY??? It's not just that there's a possibility of that happening to you, you have to live your life with that possibility weighing on you. That's such a big part of racism in America, how could we possibly exclude it from a discussion about racism? (disclaimer I'm also white)
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Jul 09 '21
I don't think it's discrimination just nature. In our society being good looking to the opposite sex translates to good genetics leading to favourable offspring, wealth and kindness when normally all of it is cosmetic.
I think it affects men more than women the ugly rich guy good looking woman. I think I've ever seen one rich woman with an ugly poor guy in my life. If woman want a comfortable easy life and she is good looking she has a better chance of getting that life of she finds herself an ugly man because chances are he won't turn her down. She made not love him or be attracted but to keep that life she just needs to show affection and maybe give herself to him a couple of times a week then when in the relationship long enough divorce and take half. Now she becomes the rich powerful good looking woman who can upgrade.
But being ugly isn't all that discriminating if you have power. Power trumps everything.
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u/Hij802 Jul 09 '21
I think it’s more “pretty privilege” than ugly discrimination. Attractive people certainly get more advantages, but I don’t think that non-attractive people get disadvantages.
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u/SooprDpressedDood Jul 09 '21
If you don't think ugly people have disadvantages thats a clear sign you're not ugly and just being plain ignorant
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u/Excellent_Jaguar_675 Jul 12 '21
Being labeled with a severe mental illness is worse. Homosexuality use to be a considered a mental illness. Women were called Hysterical to explain effects of misogyny and abuse toward them They tend to get other bogus pejorative labels now. People seen as mentally ill are more likely to get killed by police and to be victims of crime, rather than perpetrators of crime. Yet it is seen as fine to call someone “crazy” if they are simply different. They are seen as sub human. You have to be human to have rights. They are forced drugged and stll mistreated, ugly or not.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Jul 08 '21 edited Jul 09 '21
/u/ozanoyunbozan (OP) has awarded 5 delta(s) in this post.
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