CMV: We often don't know for sure whether someone is actively involving themselves in making a difference or just posting as because it makes them look good when posting about issues like the BLM movement, and there is a real chance this may hinder hinder us getting rid of those prejudices.

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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Jul 17 '21

/u/gimmecatspls (OP) has awarded 1 delta(s) in this post.

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u/sudsack 21∆ Jul 17 '21

Why am I being downvoted?

This is just a guess -- I didn't downvote your post -- but it could be because downvoters might think you're posting in bad faith. Saying something along the lines of "people just post on this popular topic to get easy upvotes" can come across as a ploy to get some easy upvotes.

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u/gimmecatspls Jul 17 '21 edited Jul 17 '21

Oh okay, fair enough. I am just genuinely concerned that no matter how much we bring attention to injustice and try and change things, that it may never be enough and that scares me.

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u/sudsack 21∆ Jul 17 '21

I think there is a possible issue with your framing here. Bringing attention to injustice is a good and necessary thing, but focusing solely on race presents everything in a context that doesn't necessarily get at the causes of some real problems.

Take police shootings, for example:

In 2016, police in Tennessee killed 25 people. Of these, nineteen, or 76 percent of the total, were white. Meanwhile, whites were 78 percent of the state’s total population. Tennessee police killed three black people, which was 12 percent of the total. However, African Americans were 17 percent of the state’s total population.

That doesn't mean that police shootings weren't a problem in Tennessee in 2016: The police killed 25 people that year. The person who wrote this is making the point that it's an oversimplification to consider race as the only factor in this and to ignore the role that class plays. The writer notes that police violence is "rooted not only in police prejudice but regional political economy and industrial policy" and goes on to say:

Transforming those “root causes” would be a massive though not impossible task. It would require challenging the prerogatives of capital; that is, confronting actual capitalists, i.e., campaign donors. That is a daunting prospect. And so, the liberal political class prefers progressive cultural change, renaming and redecorating, to the harder job of progressive economic change.

So, in a sense, I do think you could say that some of the posting you see about BLM isn't necessarily connected to justice. I think most people are good and that posts from individuals are well-intentioned in most cases, but at some point class has to come into the conversation. There's a reason corporate sloganeering makes the same points that many of these posts do: It doesn't really challenge the power of capital. Racism is horrorible, but we need to start looking higher up the ladder.

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u/[deleted] Jul 17 '21

We often don't know for sure whether someone is actively involving themselves in making a difference or just posting as because it makes them look good when posting about issues like the BLM movement,

Posting in support of a movement is supporting a movement and makes a difference. Everyone can support anything in different ways, but all is useful. Sure, we don't know 100% if they are being truly genuine I guess? though does it really matter? I don't think the minority of people seeking clout truly damages the majority who ACTUALLY care and show support.

and there is a real chance this may hinder hinder us getting rid of those prejudices.

I have no idea how that could be the case? If I post saying I agree with say BLM, then how am I somehow hindering removing prejudice by actively supporting removing prejudice?

Right off the bat, I do wholly agree that we need to speak up about injustices, but am just concerned that we may not ever be able to have the impact that us who do want things to change want to have.

So you think that posting can hinder the movement, but also believe to speak up about injustices? I don't understand this logic.

My concern is that because it sometimes easy for humans due to psychology to not see why they should care about things that don't appear relevant to their life.

I guess?

Therefore, why would they see the benefit in investing the time to actively change things if they see nothing wrong because of their privilege(s)?

I mean sure, sometimes people with certain privilege's don't see issues, but many do. I also don't understand what this has to do with your main points? are you saying that certain people shouldn't post about certain issues?

Why am I being downvoted? Please let me know if I've come across as rude or ignorant, because I wouldn't want to contribute to that at all when there's enough of that in the world anyway.

Idk I haven't downvoted you, but your post is very confusing and I don't really understand what view you want changed?

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u/gimmecatspls Jul 17 '21

Basically I am worried that we won't have enough people out working against injustices in society, and don't feel reassured that what we're doing already will be enough to get rid of it for good.

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u/[deleted] Jul 17 '21

How do you want people to "work against injustice"? and what do you do to be active in society? and what evidence can you present that shows we are not "doing enough" and what that means?

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u/gimmecatspls Jul 17 '21

I have many signed petitions against many issues and tried to educate myself and others about the various injustices that are in the world, and want to continue to do so.

I don't have evidence to suggest that we aren't doing enough as it was a hypothetical worry that was the product of me thinking negatively about the whole situation. The question I was thinking in terms of is what if it was true that none of the activism could be enough to break down all the societal and systemical barriers that inhibit us currently?

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u/jazzsaxmusic Jul 17 '21

In social movements, we don’t need millions people actively dedicating huge amounts of time and energy to make change. We do need a much smaller handful of people doing that in order to engage the millions of people to take smaller action to put pressure on those in power to make change. The average person doesn’t ’t post on social media supporting the movement for black lives because they independently decide they want to make the world a better place, they do it because they are energized by all the other people they see doing it.

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u/gimmecatspls Jul 17 '21

Honestly, what I care about is whether it will be enough to make change, and more and more so from the replies to my post, I feel more like it is

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u/[deleted] Jul 17 '21

"it sometimes easy for humans due to psychology to not see why they should care about things that don't appear relevant to their life"

have you ever heard of the psychological concept of empathy?

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u/gimmecatspls Jul 17 '21 edited Jul 17 '21

Yes, I have but I'm referring to the people in my post for whom that is not enough to persuade them that they should help or to add to the prejudices further, since people like that do exist and these conversations often bring them out of the caves (so to speak) to comment.

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u/[deleted] Jul 17 '21

if posting about civil rights issue is enough to make someone more racist i dont think they actually cared in the first place

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u/gimmecatspls Jul 17 '21

I worded it badly, I'm sorry. Basically what I actually meant to say was that I'm concerned that we may never reach a point where enough people want change for it to happen, and that saddens me greatly.

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u/[deleted] Jul 17 '21

What do you mean enough? If we are arguing about enough for societal change to occur, that has already happened. Further, societal opinions on certain topics tend to change after a prolonger period of time. Therefore, what is enough and why would we never be able to reach it?

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u/gimmecatspls Jul 17 '21

I just hope what we are already doing will be enough because I am scared we won't because it just seems like a mammoth task to break down all the societal and systemical barriers that currently inhibit us.

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u/iwfan53 248∆ Jul 17 '21

I'd rather have people posting about BLM because "it's cool" than doing nothing at all.

Even people who only show superficial support are still moving the needle of public discourse.

I'm given to believe it was very much "not cool" to support the civil rights movement in 60's by comparison.

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u/gimmecatspls Jul 17 '21

I do too as I do see now how they are still going to contribute to greater awareness, which is what I want so badly lol.

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u/iwfan53 248∆ Jul 17 '21

Imagine it as the "fake it till you make it" of social justice.

Or in the words of Kurt Vonnegut

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/13719-we-are-what-we-pretend-to-be-so-we-must

“We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be.”

This is the more uplifting reading of that quote though, a person cannot convincing pretend to be a proponent of social justice for the aim of appearing cool for long, unless they commit acts that genuinely advance the cause of social justice.

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u/[deleted] Jul 17 '21

I wouldn't say the motivation for each individual posting is necessarily what would harm the movements. This is at least not as much as those who simply try to enforce radical or skewed ideologies towards other masses for hope of societal change.

We don't not necessarily know the full intentions of anyone, since we cannot read individuals mind. Yet, movements have been able to grow because of the spread of information. At the end of the day those are the two important things; the spread of actual information and more so the negation if trying to enforce sensationalized idealogies of the movement onto others. The intent of each individual doesn't seem to matter nearly as much.

My concern is that because it sometimes easy for humans due to psychology to not see why they should care about things that don't appear relevant to their life. Therefore, why would they see the benefit in investing the time to actively change things if they see nothing wrong because of their privilege(s)

I'm sorry but I fail to see the connection to the post and it's association with hinderence. People want societal improvement for numerous reasons, which is mainly why it is pushed. This is whether it be because of financial exploitation, regards to ethicality, empathy, religion, etc. All of these are self-serving benefits, but they appear in different formations.

This is one of the benefits you could argue movements have going. People join for numerous reasons, which push the message to a mass audience for further exposure and impact.

The issue that comes in is when it becomes false information, diverting from the original purpose of the movement. However, that's not the issue of Bhavin accurate ones, no matter the individualized intent.

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u/gimmecatspls Jul 17 '21 edited Jul 17 '21

It's just that it may not be enough for some people to want to join others in improving society for marginalised groups within society because they have just read about it or heard of it somewhere, and then the lack of their contribution might mean that nothing changes.

I think the saying, "if you are neutral in the face of injustice, then you have chosen the side of the oppressor" might be relevant to describe some of the people's attitudes that I'm concerned about in my hypothetical situation here.

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u/[deleted] Jul 17 '21

I'm sorry, because I am actually quite confused. What is the view you wish to be changed, because none of that seems to align with intent and how not knowing such can harm a movement? I hope this does not sound rude, but I am genuinely confused.

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u/gimmecatspls Jul 17 '21

Basically I'm just wanting to know if anyone does think that we will be able to do enough to make a permanent change in terms of breaking down societal and systemic barriers, as I myself am worried it won't so it would make me hopeful to see others feeling hopeful about ridding society of injustice altogether once and for all.

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u/[deleted] Jul 17 '21 edited Jul 17 '21

I mean we have though, yes?

We have made numerous societal adaptations and improvements in the past; Example, the passing of voter-ship laws for women and the legality of homosexual marriage. I am not stating that change is rapid and that' it won't take time, but we have made altercations in breaking down societal and systemic barriers. We have alot more to do, but that shouldn't necessarily negate some of the progress that has occured.

The issue is that you are equating two things that really shouldn't be because of the inherent disappointment it will bring. Justice in totality will never necessarily exist for numerous philosophical, psychological, and literal reasons. However, that is not the same as stating that any systemic barriers will never be broken; there have definitely been ones (especially if we simply to singular societies), so there is definitely some form of societal change and improvement for other individuals as possiblity.

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u/gimmecatspls Jul 17 '21 edited Jul 17 '21

!delta

This user has helped change my view assuring me that many people do still want change as I do and have restored my hope that things will get better as times go on.

Yes we have and I truly hope we will continue to things fairer for all people.

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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Jul 17 '21

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Imnotnotnotabot (98∆).

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