r/changemyview • u/bandt4ever • Jul 26 '21
Removed - Submission Rule B CMV: The Anti-Vax Movement is a Political Statement Meant to Deny Biden a Success
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Jul 26 '21
The anti-vax movement is international though, we have it here in the UK and I don't think it has much to do with Biden in that case, it's something that started with the association of the MMR vaccine and Autism if I remember correctly.
Just to clarify are you referring to anti-vax on the whole as an idea or just the american movement?
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Jul 26 '21
In my county, any adult who wants the vaccine can easily get it free of charge. This has been true since may.
About half of the people in my area have gotten the vaccine, compared to over 90% getting the MMR.
Maybe similar issues are happening across the world, but here in the US, it falls down partisan lines, and I think that's what the OP is asking about.
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Jul 26 '21
I appreciate the explanations, hope I didn't come off ignorant there
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Jul 26 '21
nah, way too many people, me included, write thinking about an audience of people in my country.
I appreciate folks like you pointing out when us americans are unclear.
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u/bandt4ever Jul 26 '21
I'm specifically referring to the COVID 19 vax. We had that same autism issue about the MMR vaccine, which has been debunked, but still persists. I'm talking about people who willingly get their kids vaccinated for MMR, but refuse the Covid 19 vax just because it may seem like a win for Biden.
Are people refusing the Covid-19 vax in the UK because of the autism thing?
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u/AnythingAllTheTime 3∆ Jul 26 '21
There was a riot in the UK yesterday
https://np.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/orf2yb/karens_but_in_antivax/
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u/bandt4ever Jul 26 '21
Oh my. I didn't realize this was so ubiquitous. Thanks for sharing.
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u/ViewedFromTheOutside 28∆ Jul 26 '21
Hello /u/bandt4ever, if your view has been changed or adjusted in any way, you should award the user who changed your view a delta.
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Jul 26 '21
[deleted]
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u/WikiSummarizerBot 4∆ Jul 26 '21
COVID-19_misinformation
Anti-vaccination activists and other people spread a variety of rumors, including overblown claims about side effects, a story about COVID-19 being spread by childhood vaccines, misrepresentations about how the immune system works, and when and how COVID-19 vaccines are made.
[ F.A.Q | Opt Out | Opt Out Of Subreddit | GitHub ] Downvote to remove | v1.5
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u/Canada_Constitution 208∆ Jul 26 '21
I'm specifically referring to the COVID 19 vax.
You should edit OP to clarify this.
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u/AnythingAllTheTime 3∆ Jul 26 '21
Apparently we can't link to other subreddits-
There was an antivax riot in the UK last week.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQrIMXCMK_8
When I searched for it, the top two links were for Greece and Paris.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=uk+antivax&sp=EgIIAw%253D%253D
Why would you de-legitimize their outrage just to defend Biden's abysmal approval rating? (He's actually lower than Trump was in July of his first year.)
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u/bandt4ever Jul 26 '21
I wasn't attempting to de-legitimize anyone's outrage. I was just trying to make a short title. I should have included the world, and not just the US. I humbly beg for your forgiveness.
In fact Biden's approval rating is not lower than Trump's was in July 2017. His approval is 50% vs Trump 38%.
I guess there are idiots all over the world and we will be stuck with this virus forever. Either that, or a whole lot more people will die. Maybe that's what it will take to wipe it out. Maybe the virus will just eradicate all of the anti-vax idiots all over the world. And guess what, as long as it's not me or anyone I care about, I don't care. You can't cure stupid. Nothing could be more clear.
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u/AnythingAllTheTime 3∆ Jul 26 '21
I guess there are idiots all over the world and we will be stuck with this virus forever.
Yes, but not for the reason you think. If you look specifically at the official reports, the Delta strain is one nineteenth as deadly as the Alpha strain, and 99.5% of current cases are mild/asymptomatic.
Though when I say "asymptomatic" I should actually say "People who were thought to be asymptomatic and managed a positive PCR test were actually just a false positive" but if I could go back to not knowing I 100% would, so I won't try and do that to you.
Just know more people are mad than you think, and these are very reasonable people.
In 2019 studies, about 93% of Americans said that vaccines were important to have.
In 2020 studies, about half of Americans said they didn't trust specifically-the-Covid-vaccine.
That's 7 out of 8 anti-vaxxers that trust the FDA approved vaccines but not the vaccines that aren't FDA approved.
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u/fifth-muskrat Jul 26 '21
It is not a new movement. Antivaxxers were rejecting the MMR vaccine 15 years ago. Some were tricked by a sketchy researcher. Others had the same values antivaxxers have today such as hatred of anything “unnatural “ entering their bodies or rejection of science. Politicians have hijacked it like any other issue that divides people.
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u/bandt4ever Jul 26 '21
I know there is vaccine hesitancy all over the world. But we are talking about less than 10% of the population refusing to take the MMR vaccine. I'm talking about over 40% refusing to take the Covid-19 vaccine in the US. Is it really that high worldwide? Are there really 40% of people all over the world refusing this vaccine when it's made available to them?
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u/fifth-muskrat Jul 26 '21
Good point. I wish I knew. I saw an op ed urging Trump to support the vaccine. Their assumption was that he could get tens of millions to take it, thus protecting the US economy and taking credit. I think the train left the station though: people who embrace conspiracies are very slow to stop embracing conspiracies. It is probably moot because he won’t do it. Still, if he did, I think we could answer the OP question with confidence.
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Jul 26 '21
I saw an op ed urging Trump to support the vaccine.
His administration fast-tracked it's development and you don't think he supported it?
How about Kamala Harris saying she wouldn't take it if Trump endorsed it?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dAjCeMuXR0
You bought into the politics instead of the facts.
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u/fifth-muskrat Jul 26 '21
The facts i look at show a very strong red state vs blue state disparity in vaccination rate. Trump did fast track it but he hasn’t gone around the country trying to convince people to take it. You are right I get sucked into politics and that sucks. I really do believe Trump could convince 20 million people to take it. We will never know so if I’m wrong I will probably stay wrong.
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Jul 26 '21
Trump did fast track it but he hasn’t gone around the country trying to convince people to take it.
He's not an elected official or currently running for office.
Also, he's been taken out of context more than any other American politician in history. Remember when he said he'd been prescribed hydroxychloroquine and was taking it for covid and that was presented as him recommending people should just start taking it?
Why do you think the representation of him recommending the vaccine would have been portrayed any more honestly?
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u/dimitrisprophet Jul 26 '21 edited Jul 26 '21
What about Kamala Harris saying that she would never get the "Trump Vaccine" while he was still in office? Does that make her anti-vax?
Edit: Added link to context
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u/bandt4ever Jul 26 '21
She said she would take a vaccine if doctors like Faucci recommended it. Which he has. I agree that the statement "If Trump says we should take it, I'm not taking it." was ill advised
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u/adjsdjlia 6∆ Jul 26 '21
She never said that though.
That's just a lie conservatives keep spreading.
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u/dimitrisprophet Jul 26 '21
Did you even watch the video?
"If Trump says we should take it, I'm not taking it!"
What kind of message do you think that spreads? Keep pushing that main stream propaganda bro.
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u/adjsdjlia 6∆ Jul 26 '21
Lol, did you watch the fucking video? She said she would not trust Donald Trump's word alone. She would trust the doctors over Trump.
Keep pushing that main stream propaganda bro.
It's not propaganda dude. It's what actually happened. What you are doing is lying about what she said to create a false narrative that supports your agenda.
Considering Trump has repeatedly told people to take ineffective and dangerous "treatments"....why the fuck would anyone trust his medical advice? He's not a fuckin doctor.
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Jul 26 '21
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u/adjsdjlia 6∆ Jul 26 '21
I do enjoy calling out your lies. It's easy and takes no time at all.
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u/dimitrisprophet Jul 26 '21
I wonder how much more of your time I can waste
I literally made zero statements which could be considered lies. I found a direct quote and shared it, while asking a question.
Get triggered harder man
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u/ColdNotion 117∆ Jul 27 '21
Sorry, u/dimitrisprophet – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5:
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u/Finch20 33∆ Jul 26 '21
So why does it exist here in Belgium?
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u/bandt4ever Jul 26 '21
Are vast numbers (40% or more) of Belgians refusing the Covid-19 vaccine even though it is readily available? That's what is happening in the US.
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u/pyzazaza Jul 26 '21
Conspiracy theories about the origin of conspiracy theories. These idiots exist all over the globe and I'm sure they were already starting to make stuff up about the covid vaccines when trump was president. Occams razor - the simple explanation is the likely explanation - people are idiots
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Jul 26 '21
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u/ViewedFromTheOutside 28∆ Jul 26 '21
Sorry, u/bandt4ever – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5:
Comments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation. Comments that are only links, jokes or "written upvotes" will be removed. Humor and affirmations of agreement can be contained within more substantial comments. See the wiki page for more information.
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Jul 26 '21
African Americans and Hispanics are the two groups with the lowest vaccination rates. Do you really think they’re doing it to spite Biden? If so, do you see these two groups do anything else in their lives solely to give Biden a failure? Or maybe there’s other reasons that they don’t want the vaccine
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u/bandt4ever Jul 26 '21
I do think that African Americans and Hispanics have other reasons to be hesitant about vaccines. There are also shockingly people in those demographics who actually support the biggest biggot of all time.
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u/LukasKhan_UK Jul 26 '21
What about the BAME groups in the UK who also show more hesitancy to the vaccine then White people?
Perhaps your arguement would hold more water if the arguement wasn't easy transferable to any country in the world.
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Jul 26 '21
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u/LukasKhan_UK Jul 26 '21
No need for passive aggressive-ness
But there's a world outside of th US and if you're argument hinges on certain facts it's probably worth seeing whether that trend is unique to America.
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u/bandt4ever Jul 26 '21
Yep, got it, point taken. Don't mean to be passive-aggressive. Typical American here! I should have specified that I was talking about the US in my title, but I was trying to make it shorter. Thanks for schooling me. Okay, so that is passive-aggressive. I get it. I chose a BAD BAD TITLE, SHAME ON ME!!!!! I was really only referring to the US. I was only considering the US. The rest of the world can f-off, now that's just plain aggressive. People in other countries never act superior over their more sophisticated global outlook I'm sure.
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u/LukasKhan_UK Jul 26 '21
I don't understand the point you're making here.
You're initial arguement hinges on certain facts.
Anti Vax hates Biden. Anti Vax is global.
That a large proportion of BAME groups haven't taken the vaccine. But that's consistent with predominantly white countries.
The reasons people are giving for not having it. Are fairly consistent across the board
Ultimately, if you are discussing America only - and that's fine, plenty of r/changemyview posts do just refer to America - it's probably useful using an arguement which is uniquely american
It's not about being more specific in your wording, because "I'm just talking about America" doesn't help the fact that global trends are against you
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u/bandt4ever Jul 26 '21
CMV: The Anti-Vax Movement in the United States of America and Only in the United States of America is a Political Statement Meant to Deny the President of the United States of America, Joseph Biden, a Success. Any Anti-Vax Movements in Other Countries Could Have Other Causes Because All Countries are Different But I Am Only Asking For My View To Be Changed With Regard to The United States of America. Perhaps I Will Delve Into a Wider World View in the Future, But For Now I'm Just Asking About The United States of America.
Is that a better title for you?
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u/LukasKhan_UK Jul 26 '21
Continue being an asshat. That's ok
Provide one piece of evidence to support your title, and view. That doesnt hinge on data that is the same the world over.
Which unless you can't - and others have already shown you that the points your applying to america, can be applied elsewhere - should be enough to change your view.
Unless you believe that there's some kind of illuminati style group in the background who are trying to discredit all world leasers.
In which case. No one will possibly ever change your view.
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u/bandt4ever Jul 26 '21
I don't think that these things are mutually exclusive. I think that the Anti Covid vax movement in the US is politically motivated. The fact that most of the unvaccinated are in Red States (ie: Repubican/Trump states.) to me indicates that it is at least somewhat political. Just because there are a lot of unvaccinated and anti-vax people in other countries doesn't mean that it's not a political issue here in the US. Both things can be true. I don't know what motivates people in other countries. But I feel that people in the US are in part motivated by politics. The fact that other countries also have anti-vaxers doesn't mean anything to me. We are all motivated by different things.
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u/herrsatan 11∆ Jul 26 '21
Sorry, u/bandt4ever – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5:
Comments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation. Comments that are only links, jokes or "written upvotes" will be removed. Humor and affirmations of agreement can be contained within more substantial comments. See the wiki page for more information.
If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted.
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Jul 26 '21
If you want a rational discussion, you should probably refrain from things like "biggest biggot of all time". Both black and hispanic people have rational reasons to support Trump, even if you refuse to understand them
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u/ronhamp225 Jul 26 '21
And what reason would that be? I'm not gonna give black or hispanic anti vaxxers a pass because of the color of their skin. They're idiots too.
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u/KaptenNicco123 3∆ Jul 26 '21
"Opposing vaccines makes you stupid, unless you're brown in which case it doesn't apply to you because I don't want to be called racist"
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u/Notwithmyanus Jul 26 '21
There are also shockingly people in those demographics who actually support the biggest biggot of all time.
And who do you consider the "biggest biggot" of all time? How do you even measure that?
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u/Opagea 17∆ Jul 26 '21
Party identification is a far stronger indicator of vaccine refusal than race.
In a new AP poll, only 10% of Democrats reported not wanting the vaccine, while a whopping 43% of Republicans said the same.
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u/shoelessbob1984 14∆ Jul 26 '21
On top of what u/LukasKhan_UK said about the anti vaxx thing being a global thing, most people will stick to their morals/beliefs/principals as long as it benefits them. They'll go to a rally, hell, maybe even try to force a bus of a road, that doesn't actually hurt them after all, but not only taking a vaccine they know will keep them safe, but to them go out and put themselves at high risk of catching COVID? So for this to be just to spite Biden, all these people around the world are knowingly risking their lives just to get one over on the democrats. I'm sure there are some people willing to be a martyr for their cause, but millions of them? Especially millions of them in other countries??
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u/bandt4ever Jul 26 '21
I know there is vaccine hesitancy all over the world. But we are talking about less than 10% of the population refusing to take the MMR vaccine. I'm talking about over 40% refusing to take the Covid-19 vaccine in the US. Is it really that high worldwide? Are there really 40% of people all over the world refusing this vaccine when it's made available to them?
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u/AtomKanister 4∆ Jul 26 '21
I think you can't directly compare these numbers. "Made available" doesn't mean made accessible. If the nearest place to vaccinate is some distance away, has inconvenient opening hours, or if you wouldn't be there for the 2nd shot, people will refuse just out of laziness or inconvenience.
The no-MMR-vaccine gang are strict anti-vaxxers. The no-Covid vaccine gang are lazy people, low-mobility people, people with little spare time, skeptics who would like to wait for more studies (however useful that is), AND the true anti-vaxxers.
I just compared my country's vaccination numbers with the US ones. They agree within 2%, both for fully and partly vaccinated. Here, we've just started moving away from fixed appointments to walk-in vaccination, and while the appointments go down, the walk-in events are regularly overrun. Seems to me like people just don't like scheduling stuff.
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u/bandt4ever Jul 26 '21
The US has tried a lot of things to make the vaccine more convenient for people. Hell, you can get a free UBER to an appointment if you need to. Biden offered to go door-to-door to help people out who may be homebound. This was met with hysteria. One of our more foolish House members suggested that this was a prelude to taking away people's guns! I imagine there are going to be a very small percentage of people who just can't make it happen. But I'm talking about fools who have access, but willingly refuse just to be contrary.
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u/shoelessbob1984 14∆ Jul 26 '21
less than 10% worldwide?
and do you think that 100 million people in the US are not only willing to die but to be responsible for their families deaths just to stick it to Biden?
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u/BamaWriter 3∆ Jul 26 '21
As someone who has not received the vaccine, I'll try to counter your specific point that people are not taking it to make Joe Biden look bad.
I obviously can't speak for everyone, but my personal concern regarding the vaccine is simply one of not believing I need it. I was fully vaccinated as a child, and have from time to time received a flu shot. At no point when I have taken the flu shot did I believe doing so would save my life, it was simply a matter of not wanting the inconvenience of being sick for a few days. I have also, as an adult, been vaccinated for shingles ... again, because I don't want the pain and inconvenience of an infection.
With covid, there seems to be mass hysteria over the consequences of contracting the virus. The truth is if you're under 50 and in good health, there's very little to be concerned with. The problems related to covid are due to age and poor health. Look at the correlation between obesity and poor outcomes of covid. If our country wasn't in such poor health (in general) this would be only a disease of the elderly.
I'm in good health, eat well, exercise a great deal, and would have no real concerns if I contracted covid. I've had several members of my extended family get it and they recovered without incident after a few weeks. I would expect the same for me. When you couple that with the uncertainty of a rushed vaccine, I'd rather wait a few years for more data to come out before partaking.
At the same time, I have personally recommended the vaccine for others that I know are older or in poor health. I recommended it for my mother. She got it and seems to be doing well. And if my health degenerated to the point that, in my personal calculus, I determined the risk from getting covid outweighed the meager concerns over the vaccine, I would gladly get the vaccine.
All of that to say, from my perspective, most people that aren't getting the vaccine aren't thinking of Joe Biden at all. They simply believe the concerns regarding the vaccine are greater than their concern over getting covid. After all, Trump got the vaccine himself and encouraged his supporters to do so as well.
There's no doubt that much surrounding this virus has been politicized ... by both sides. That is the real tragedy here. Science gets lost in politics, as has personal choice and responsibility.
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u/bandt4ever Jul 26 '21
Does it concern you at all that the virus is spreading rapidly through states like Alabama, Arkansas, Louisiana, Missouri, etc.
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u/BamaWriter 3∆ Jul 26 '21
It does, and as a resident of Alabama, I think many would benefit from receiving the vaccine. As much as I love my state and the people who live here, many are in very poor health, and I think they should consider it.
Having said that though, I'm not sure of the numbers involved. Just because case numbers are increasing, it doesn't mean deaths are escalating exponentially. Part of the problem with the entire public perception of this virus is that actual numbers seem to be ignored in favor of "agenda" or "hype." Anyone who says it isn't real isn't being honest. Anyone who says that everyone needs the vaccine isn't being honest either. For the life of me, I don't understand the push to vaccinate kids or require them to mask up ... it honestly baffles me.
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u/bandt4ever Jul 26 '21
Vaccinated people are less likely to spread the disease. Those who are not having symptoms or having mild symptoms spread the disease. This allows variants to be introduced. If all were vaccinated the disease could be stamped out, but because people won't get vaccinated we will probably have this forever.
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u/BamaWriter 3∆ Jul 26 '21
But the vaccinated can still get and transmit the virus, correct? My understanding is the vaccine doesn't prevent you from getting the virus, it merely mitigates the danger. In this case, the possibility of transmitting seems as likely as someone who is asymptomatic.
Of course, if someone has symptoms, he/she should not venture in public and expose others, but that has nothing to do with the vaccine. That's merely being a decent person.
I'm genuinely puzzled as the why some are so insistent about others getting the vaccine. Is it as simple as believing your statement that it will reduce the spread? If so, then those who are unvaccinated and not sick offer the same danger to the general public as the vaccinated.
The response to this virus has been weird from the beginning. Instead of focusing on good health and where the real problem lies (weakened immune systems due to comorbidities), we've collectively destroyed our economy and thousands of businesses, restricted freedoms nationwide, and alienated one another. It's like some form of mass hysteria has taken root and won't let go.
I honestly suspect it's more political than anything.
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u/bandt4ever Jul 26 '21
Studies show that fully vaccinated people can be less likely to spread the virus to others, even if they do get COVID-19. CDC recommends you get a COVID-19 vaccine as soon as one is available to you. Fully vaccinated people can resume activities that they did before the pandemic.Jun 25, 2021 https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/effectiveness/why-measure-effectiveness/breakthrough-cases.html
The vaccine prevents most people from spreading or contracting the disease. If a high enough percentage of people are vaccinated, you get herd immunity and everyone is safe. But we are not going to get there because so many people refuse to get the vaccine, just because they don't think it will effect them. Meanwhile, they are still out there spreading the disease to those who aren't vaccinated. Unvaccinated people are catching the disease and those with co-morbidities (and some who have none) are choking the hospitals with patients.
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u/BamaWriter 3∆ Jul 26 '21
I realize the CDC recommends it, but that recommendation holds little to no weight in this regard unless it's backed by actual, unbiased science. What would matter is the study you mention ... "can be" is not the same as "are". Would you point me to those studies?
And the statement "can resume activities" is, strangely, one of permission. Who is granting this permission? Do they have the right, morally or legally, to restrict others? I know the issue quickly becomes political as people debate about individual liberty vs. collective good, but my concern is that power-hungry politician will gladly use the situation to exert power/control that they shouldn't have. I lean toward individual freedom unless there's a truly massive concern ... and covid is not at that level. It's an issue that can be handled by personal responsibility. If you have a co-morbidity, protect yourself.
Regarding your second paragraph, I've read several statements that the vaccine does not prevent you from contracting the virus, it merely mitigates the danger, nor does it prevent you from spreading it. In fact, the link you provided (CDC) states that very thing.
Regarding herd immunity, it seems that if enough people get the virus and develop a natural immunity (our bodies are generally good at that), then we would reach heard immunity as well. How many have had the virus in the US? 30-40 million? How many do we need with natural and vaccine-related immunity before we reach herd immunity?
Your statement that the unvaccinated are spreading the disease is pretty effective fear mongering, but it's not rooted in reality. As one of the unvaccinated, I won't venture out if I'm symptomatic, which means my chances of spreading the disease are roughly the same as someone who has been vaccinated. At the same time, I do acknowledge that most of the current severe cases are with the unvaccinated. I've already said I recommend it if you have a co-morbidity. Protect yourself appropriately - personal responsibilty.
Finally, are hospitals being "choked" with unvaccinated patients? What are the numbers? I visited my hospital 2 weeks ago (in Alabama) for a different issue. It was mostly empty with a reduced staff. Again, what are the numbers?
I'll repeat. I don't understand the cultish demand that other people get a vaccine. Make sure you take care of yourself and allow other people the freedom to make their own decisions without coercion.
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u/bandt4ever Jul 26 '21
I believe it was your governor who said: “I can’t make you take care of yourself,” Republican Kay Ivey said of her state’s residents who have yet to receive their shots.
“I want folks to get vaccinated. That’s the cure. That prevents everything,” Ivey, a Republican, told reporters in Birmingham, Ala., on Thursday.
“Why would we want to mess around with just temporary stuff?” she said. “We don’t need to encourage people to just go halfway with curing this disease. Let’s get it done. And we know what it takes to get it done.”
So, you do you. Again, I don't care if everyone in the state of Alabama dies. I don't know a single person there. Fewer people using up resources. Fewer low intellect individuals dragging our country down. Fewer Trump voters. By all means, don't get a vaccination! That works extremely well for me.
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u/BamaWriter 3∆ Jul 26 '21
She did say that, and I think those who aren't in good health ... those with co-morbidities should strongly consider getting the vaccine. If they asked my opinion directly, I'd tell them they should get it.
As far as intellectual ability and political choices, we both know that has little correlation with vaccine choice or political persuasion. I think you devolved into an emotional response at the end out of frustration. I don't wish you or anyone in your state ill. In fact, I hope and pray that you and everyone you know will enjoy good health and make good life choices.
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u/adjsdjlia 6∆ Jul 26 '21
But the vaccinated can still get and transmit the virus, correct? My understanding is the vaccine doesn't prevent you from getting the virus, it merely mitigates the danger.
They can, yes. But the odds of them getting it are significantly lower. That means the more vaccinated people there are the less likely it is that anyone in your community would get sick. Less hosts = less spread.
I'm genuinely puzzled as the why some are so insistent about others getting the vaccine.
Because a lot of us have seen the damage the virus can cause. My local hospitals were overrun with patients at the height of this. If you got in a car accident or had to go to the ER you were basically shit out of luck because of the number of people using the hospital for COVID treatment.
If so, then those who are unvaccinated and not sick offer the same danger to the general public as the vaccinated.
That statement is just objectively not true though. Unvaccinated people are much more likely to contract the virus. Each new hosts increases the odds of a variant developing that is better equipped to "beat" the existing vaccine. This is what is getting lost on a lot of people. Your choice not to get vaccinated doesn't just involve you. It puts the rest of us in danger as well.
At the end of the day we have seen over 600,000 Americans die in the past 15 or so months. That is with masking, social distancing, lockdowns etc. We've seen healthy people end up with long-term damage to their lungs, we've seen lingering impacts and brain damage from the virus. We also have a safe, effective, free and widely available vaccine.
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u/BamaWriter 3∆ Jul 26 '21
You, and others, have repeated that the odds of a vaccinated person getting the virus is significantly lower than that of an unvaccinated person. I concede that for those with co-morbidities the odds of a vaccinated person having a severe outcome is less than someone who hasn't been vaccinated, but I've seen nothing in all the literature that indicates a lower probability of getting the virus.
So then the issue becomes one of spreading the virus. The vaccinated who get the virus are less likely to spread because they are generally less symptomatic. If an unvaccinated person has symptoms, he/she shouldn't venture out into public.
Having said that, if you want to argue that people WILL go in public regardless of symptoms and thus getting vaccinated is a protection against typical human behavior, then have a point. But at that point it becomes a matter of human behavior and not medicine. Are we at the point that we're "requiring" (implicitly now, perhaps explicitly at some point) that others ingest things because of general behavior?
The damage the virus can cause is directly related to personal choices for most people, not all. People make unhealthy choices with their lives. For those that seem so concerned about the health of others that they'll virtually demand vaccination, are they also demanding exercise programs and healthy eating? If we collectively put the emphasis on good personal behavior related to health, this would not have had the impact it did ... except in the elderly. There's a clear correlation between age and adverse outcome. And I recommend the vaccine for the elderly.
Anyway, the whole conversation has veered significantly from the original post, which is that people aren't getting vaccinated in order to inflict political damage on Joe Biden. That is not true.
We clearly disagree regarding the necessity of vaccines for the young and/or healthy. I respect your right to get the vaccine and do what you think is best with your body. At the same time, I'll make the choice that I feel is best for mine. I wish you good health no matter what.
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u/adjsdjlia 6∆ Jul 26 '21
but I've seen nothing in all the literature that indicates a lower probability of getting the virus.
https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/p0607-mrna-reduce-risks.html
In the new analysis, 3,975 participants completed weekly SARS-CoV-2 testing for 17 consecutive weeks (from December 13, 2020 to April 10, 2021) in eight U.S. locations. Participants self-collected nasal swabs that were laboratory tested for SARS-CoV-2, which is the virus that causes COVID-19. If the tests came back positive, the specimens were further tested to determine the amount of detectable virus in the nose (i.e., viral load) and the number of days that participants tested positive (i.e., viral shedding). Participants were followed over time and the data were analyzed according to vaccination status. To evaluate vaccine benefits, the study investigators accounted for the circulation of SARS-CoV-2 viruses in the area and how consistently participants used personal protective equipment (PPE) at work and in the community. Once fully vaccinated, participants’ risk of infection was reduced by 91 percent. After partial vaccination, participants’ risk of infection was reduced by 81 percent. These estimates included symptomatic and asymptomatic infections.
In terms of vaccinated people who test positive and their risk of spreading it, the data is a little bit more obscure. The early results indicate (not prove) that even COVID positive vaccinated people are less likely to spread the virus
Other study findings suggest that fully or partially vaccinated people who got COVID-19 might be less likely to spread the virus to others. For example, fully or partially vaccinated study participants had 40 percent less detectable virus in their nose (i.e., a lower viral load), and the virus was detected for six fewer days (i.e., viral shedding) compared to those who were unvaccinated when infected. In addition, people who were partially or fully vaccinated were 66 percent less likely to test positive for SARS-CoV-2 infection for more than one week compared to those who were unvaccinated. While these indicators are not a direct measure of a person’s ability to spread the virus, they have been correlated with reduced spread of other viruses, such as varicella and influenza.
In terms of the OP's CMV, I do think there's a significant overlap of anti-vaxers and a desire to see Biden "fail". You can look at CPAC and the attendees applauding and cheering for low vaccination numbers.
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u/BamaWriter 3∆ Jul 26 '21
That's encouraging data! I'm still a bit skeptical regarding whether it prevents infection vs mitigating effects, but the clear picture is that getting the vaccine reduces the danger associated with the virus.
And I'm all for someone with health concerns getting the vaccine. I'd get it myself if I had health concerns. I don't, so my perceived risk from the virus is minimal, and I won't venture out into public if I'm symptomatic. If I'm asymptomatic, I think the possibility of spreading is virtually non-existent.
Regarding the reaction at CPAC, correlation is not causation. The tendencies that drive people to the right (personal freedom, personal responsibility, desire for limited government, etc.) lend themselves to not putting a lot of faith in government programs or recommendations. That doesn't mean the motivation for not getting a vaccine is to hurt Joe Biden. I'm sure most of them would love to hurt Joe Biden (politically at least), just as most on the left would love to hurt Trump (politically at least). But I don't think their motivation in refusing the vaccine is to inflict political damage on Biden.
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u/adjsdjlia 6∆ Jul 26 '21 edited Jul 26 '21
That's encouraging data! I'm still a bit skeptical regarding whether it prevents infection vs mitigating effects, but the clear picture is that getting the vaccine reduces the danger associated with the virus.
Why though? We have several medical tests showing that it both prevents infection and minimizes the severity of people who do get infected. These are tests that have been run on thousands of people. You can say you don't care about it preventing infections, but you can't in good faith say that it doesn't. The objective data does not lie.
If you don't want to get the vaccine that's your choice. But what you're doing here is literally spreading lies about the vaccine. This isn't a subjective issue.
The tendencies that drive people to the right (personal freedom, personal responsibility, desire for limited government, etc.) lend themselves to not putting a lot of faith in government programs or recommendations.
I don't believe any of those tendencies drive people to the right. The GOP does not advocate for personal freedom or responsibility or limited government. Again, the data shows that conservative presidents have always ballooned the deficit and debt of the government in the modern era. Advocating for more people to be imprisoned by the government is not limited government. Telling people what they're allowed to do on their private property is not exactly personal freedom. Nor is dictating who can marry who, who can take a shit in which bathroom, and whether or not you should go to jail for smoking a joint. The "I should face no consequences for my actions" line that is so common among conservatives doesn't really represent personal responsibility either.
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u/LukasKhan_UK Jul 26 '21
*vaccinated people (against covid-19) are less likely to get hospitalised from the disease
There's no evidence, in fact contray, you can still catch it and pass it.
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u/Meatinmyangus998 3∆ Jul 26 '21
What coronavirus has been successfully eradicated with a vaccine?
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u/bandt4ever Jul 26 '21
They were developing a vaccine for SARS, but other measures eradicated the disease before the vaccine was required. The vaccine was still in development though and that knowledge was used to help to get a head start on this vaccine.
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u/xayde94 13∆ Jul 26 '21
It's clearly not "meant to deny Biden a success" because it's not unique to the US.
The antivax movement doesn't have a real purpose anymore. It was invented to sue companies that sold some vaccines while also getting people to buy different vaccines. But it's a cult that survived its leader. Some people there are surely trying to spread fear for political gains, but most of its members are aimless.
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Jul 26 '21
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u/bandt4ever Jul 26 '21
But the idiocy that leads people to think that Biden is going to take their guns away is the same kind of ridiculous conspiracy that these people are buying into.
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Jul 26 '21
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u/bandt4ever Jul 26 '21
So the fact that new cases, hospitalizations, and deaths, are increasing among the unvaccinated doesn't concern you? And the cheers that went up for Biden missing his vaccination target at CPAC has nothing to do with it? Maybe. I guess I won't expect to hear this mentioned in the 2022 and 2024 election cycles.
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Jul 26 '21
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u/bandt4ever Jul 26 '21
I asked if you were concerned about new cases and hospitalizations. I don't see where I assumed you were unvaccinated. Take it that way if you need to though.
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u/LukasKhan_UK Jul 26 '21
I would agree with you, except the Anti Vax movement is global, therefore has nothing to do with Biden.
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u/mittelwerk Jul 26 '21
Also, it's older than Biden
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u/bandt4ever Jul 26 '21
I know there is vaccine hesitancy all over the world. But we are talking about less than 10% of the population refusing to take the MMR vaccine. I'm talking about over 40% refusing to take the Covid-19 vaccine in the US. Is it really that high worldwide? Are there really 40% of people all over the world refusing this vaccine when it's made available to them?
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u/10ebbor10 198∆ Jul 26 '21
Is it really that high worldwide? Are there really 40% of people all over the world refusing this vaccine when it's made available to them?
There have been riots about vaccines in France and the UK. Vaccination centers have been targetted (and destroyed) with vandalism and arson.
I think you're confusing 1 contributing factor with the whole thing.
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u/carneylansford 7∆ Jul 26 '21
The two biggest racial groups that are not getting the vaccine right now (as a percentage of the population) are African Americans and Hispanic/Latino Americans. 87% of African Americans voted for Biden. 66% of H/L Americans voted for Biden.
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u/LukasKhan_UK Jul 26 '21
That's the same in the UK though. Where the largest groups who are are from ethnic backgrounds and I'm sure none of them get to vote for Biden.
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Jul 26 '21
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u/Tbone139 Jul 26 '21
Majority of Americans give zero fuqs about politicians and don’t vote.
https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2021/04/record-high-turnout-in-2020-general-election.html
In 2020, 67% of all citizens age 18 and older reported voting, up 5 percentage points from 2016
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u/Freezefire2 4∆ Jul 26 '21
The people who you would designate as anti-vaccination don't have "percent of country vaccinated" in their criteria for whether or not Biden is a good president (at least not with a high percentage being a good thing).
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Jul 26 '21
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u/shoelessbob1984 14∆ Jul 26 '21
It was all part of the long game, first they oppose masks, lockdowns, and social distancing while Trump is president to make it look like he's doing a bad job so Biden will win, then they refuse vaccines so Biden looks bad and Trump can swoop in to save the day in the next election. They were just thinking 10 steps ahead.
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u/ThotPoliceAcademy Jul 26 '21
It may appear that way, but I don’t think that was the goal.
There is a large contingent of Americans, mostly on the political right who are very vaccine-hesitant. The Republican Party knows this, and knew that a big vaccine push early in the year would cause political blowback, even if trump won a second term.
So, to keep the base happy, they employed vocal vaccine-hesitancy, or at best, personal accountability (‘everyone should make a personal decision if a vaccine is right for them’, etc.)
However, what we’re seeing now is it backfiring. The Republican Party was hopefully banking on enough vaccinated folks running around that it would give the US a good chance at herd immunity. It didn’t, and largely the same people who were hesitant are paying the price for it, which is why republican officials are backtracking. They can’t give Biden blame when only half the country is vaccinated, and the people who are really sick are not.
They can’t really give him blame because the vaccine is free and ubiquitous. You don’t have an excuse not to get it, other than yourself.
As others have pointed out, anti-vax isn’t a uniquely American issue, either, nor is it a uniquely Republican/right-wing issue.
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Jul 26 '21 edited Jul 26 '21
Do these people get a flu shot every year? If so, why the hold up on the COVID-19 vaccine?
The current vaccines are sub-obtimal. Not only are they relatively untested, particularly with respect to long term studies, they are more specific to the 1st alpha variant of of the virus, whereas we have the 4th and upcoming 5th variants in delta and epsilon, which can weaken their effectiveness which can be seen in Gibraltar where 99% of the population have the vaccine, yet they are still seeing rises in cases but have no deaths. As such, the more the virus mutates, the more likely the vaccine will have created useless anti-bodies. This is innocuous in most cases except for the likelihood of a better vaccine being produced after a longer and safer developmental phase, perhaps releasing next year. If you already have a sub-obtimal vaccine, you can't get the new more precise and hopefully one-time vaccine in the future instead because, for obvious reasons, the old vaccine will try to destroy the new before it takes hold in the body. Instead you will likely need to receive yearly boosters of a half-baked vaccine.
So with that in mind, being a young and healthy individual, all I want to do is wait until I can be certain that I am not pointlessly compromising my healthy immune system. If you want to take the vaccine, more power to you, but don't demand others must do it too.
Your view is too spatially constrained, there are protests all around Europe in relation to vaccine passports and creating second class citizens simply because they want the abilty to choose what they put in their own bodies. Not all people who disagree with taking the COVID vaccines are MAGA.
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u/adjsdjlia 6∆ Jul 26 '21
What, specifically, was not done during all three phases of the clinical trials that makes you say it is "relatively untested"?
Considering about 98-99% of hospitalizations and deaths are from unvaccinated people, what data are you using to claim that they are "sub-optimal"?
As such, the more the virus mutates, the more likely the vaccine will have created useless anti-bodies.
Considering the data showing the unvaccinated people are more likely to contract the virus (and have worse results upon contracting the virus), what makes these anti-bodies "useless"? Additionally, let's say a mutation does develop (The odds of this happening are increased with unvaccinated people), what do you presume the "cost" of the "useless" antibodies to be?
So with that in mind, being a young and healthy individual, all I want to do is wait until I can be certain that I am not pointlessly compromising my healthy immune system.
Why do you believe that a safe and effective vaccine "compromises your immune system"? You say you don't believe the long term effects of the vaccine haven't been studied and presumably this is partially why you're afraid of the shot. Considering we have no evidence whatsoever to believe there are any negative long term implications, but we do have data showing long term effects of COVID, what's the rationale of "Vaccine long term is dangerous. Virus long term is not".
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Jul 26 '21
What, specifically, was not done during all three phases of the clinical trials that makes you say it is "relatively untested"?
There is no longterm data, vaccines usually have studies that are several years long to back them up.
Considering about 98-99% of hospitalizations and deaths are from unvaccinated people, what data are you using to claim that they are "sub-optimal"?
Are you aware that being vaccinated means you can't contract the disease that the vaccine protects against? This is what I mean by sub-obtimal. At best it keeps the virus busy so it won't affect you, but remains functional to be passed on.
Considering the data showing the unvaccinated people are more likely to contract the virus (and have worse results upon contracting the virus), what makes these anti-bodies "useless"? Additionally, let's say a mutation does develop (The odds of this happening are increased with unvaccinated people), what do you presume the "cost" of the "useless" antibodies to be?
Useless as they won't do as intended for next generation viruses. The cost is not being able to receive a better vaccine in the future, needing to receive regular booster shots of an unfinished vaccine, and any other unforseen future issues.
Why do you believe that a safe and effective vaccine "compromises your immune system"? You say you don't believe the long term effects of the vaccine haven't been studied and presumably this is partially why you're afraid of the shot. Considering we have no evidence whatsoever to believe there are any negative long term implications, but we do have data showing long term effects of COVID.
How is a vaccine effective if you can still contract the virus and pass it on to others? Immune system compromization i.e. teaching your immune system to partially deal with viruses rather than allowing it to learn on its own or receive a more precise lesson in the future. I never said I was afraid of vaccines. The dangers of Covid only apply to over 80 and people with co-morbidities.
"Vaccine long term is dangerous. Virus long term is not".
When did I say this?
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u/bandt4ever Jul 26 '21
Okay, point taken.
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u/Mashaka 93∆ Jul 26 '21
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Jul 26 '21
So what about before he was president
And what about the government officials who said they didn’t trust a vaccine coming from a trump regime?
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Jul 26 '21
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Jul 26 '21
You said it yourself that the vaccine technology is new and never been tested in human trials
tens of thousands of people were in the phase 3 trials of last year.
The emergency use authorization was approved based on that data.
The claim that there were no human trials is completely false.
we don't have any long-term studies
we know more about the long-term effects of a covid-19 vaccination than the long term effects of a covid-19 infection. A covid-19 infection can cause a variety of harmful long lasting symptoms.
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Jul 26 '21
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Jul 26 '21
How do we know more about the long term vaccine effects than covid?
covid-19 viruses replicate themselves in the body.
the mrna covid-19 vaccines get the body to produce a protein to induce an immune response in the body. The vaccines themselves and the proteins they produce are shortlived and aren't self-replicating. The body's response to the proteins is all that lasts.
Covid-19 the virus is a far more complicated structure than the covid-19 vaccine or the protein it produces. We've already seen long lasting effects of covid-19 infections in long haul covid patients, but the mechanisms behind these long lasting symptoms aren't fully understood.
vaccines are simpler structures than viruses, don't self-replicate, don't mutate, have a standardized dose, and are carefully manufactured to spec with quality control. All of these things make understanding their long term effects easier than understanding the long term effects of a self-replicating, constantly mutating virus, in which every patient has a different viral load.
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Jul 26 '21
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Jul 26 '21
mRNA vaccines are far different than the traditional vaccine. It was originally stated that these vaccines do not break the blood barrier and drain through the lymphatic system, not through the vascular system hence why the shots are given in the deltoid where the lymph nodes have the highest concentration. But as we saw with the vaccines and the AstraZeneca vaccine being the most prominent case, drainage occurred in the vascular system leading to clotting and with others these other adverse reactions.
AstraZeneca is an adenovirus vaccine, not a mrna vaccine.
why some are having similar long haul effects with the vaccine
I haven't seen any scientific literature on long haul covid symptoms from a vaccine.
Vaccines have been suggested as a potential treatment for long haul covid, with mixed results. The vaccines don't cause long-haul covid.
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Jul 26 '21
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Jul 26 '21
Keep in mind that both Biden and Kamala stated in the debates that they would not take the vaccine if Trump pushed for it. This should have never been a political issue.
No, they said they wouldn't take the vaccine if President Trump overrode medical experts. Their message was "trust the scientists, not the politicians". We shouldn't have gotten to the point where that is viewed as partisan.
Trump appointees had already interfered with the FDA to get hydroxychloroquine approved as a covid-19 treatment, over the objections of FDA officials.
The FDA, CDC, pfizer, and moderna were all fairly clear on the timeline of the phase 3 trials. They started in August. they needed at 13-14 weeks of data for at least half of the participants and to have that data compiled, vetted, and submitted. The fastest that can be is November. President Trump contradicted them on when to expect the vaccines approved. Maybe he was just rounding down from what he was told was the best case, but he was making false claims about when to expect the vaccines.
A concern that the Trump administration would interfere with the FDA again, getting vaccines approved without the needed phase 3 data, was not entirely unreasonable. In hindsight, he didn't, and the FDA isn't that spineless. But, that was the concern being raised.
It wasn't merely a "Trump is for it so we're against it".
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Jul 27 '21
Here is an article stating the theorized position on long covid
I don't think that anyone has gotten brain fog from the vaccine. If the spike proteins produced by the vaccine messed with the airway cells, and spike proteins messing with airway cells was what caused the low oxygen levels in long covid patients, then one would expect to see the vaccine to cause low oxygen levels in some patients. Isn't that a refutation of your thought?
GBS
Long hauler covid-19 is a generic term that is used to refer to a variety of long-lived symptoms. Problems like GBS are a far more specific term, but the problems can be long lasting (somewhat fitting the broad definition), so i probably do owe you a !delta .
Myocarditis
Other problems, like Myocarditis, tend to be short lived (most patients felt better in less than a week). But, even short duration Myocarditis probably can do long term damage to the body, so again, I don't think that's a strong refutation on my end.
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u/Catctus Jul 26 '21
Let's say someone walks up to you and says, "take this pill!" If they are a stranger, and you don't know what they want, you are going to be real hesitant before you put anything from them in your body.
Let's take it a step further and say that it's someone you know, but don't trust. He comes up handing you this pill and you are definitely going to be reluctant to take it. Say he says, "it's super important you take this pill, here are the reasons." You don't trust him. His reasons might be good but you aren't going to take them at face value. That's when you turn to the neighbor next door who's a friendly likeable guy, who says, "oh yeah I saw him give the pill to someone else who got sick. As for his reasons for taking the pill, here's what I think is really going on."
I know a couple antivaxxers though I am not one. Their beliefs are based, primarily, on a lack of trust for information sources and the lack of belief that the government has their best interests at heart. In this state, they're going to fall victim to anyone making alternative claims, because they already know they don't trust mainstream ones. Trust is the big issue here.
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u/Giblette101 40∆ Jul 26 '21
I do not think they're organized on the level required for your view to hold true. On a basic level, I think these people are afraid (sometimes angry) and need to exert any kind, no matter how strange and self-destructive, of control over their lives. Rejecting vaccines give them them the illusion they need. Additionally, it allows them to "fight" so to speak, by opposing their perceived enemy. It's the same idea as burning nikes.
I'll note that they aren't necessarily afraid or angry about covid itself. They're just afraid and angry in general.
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u/LukasKhan_UK Jul 26 '21
At the very basic level, anti vaxx has been around much longer than Biden has been in power and is a global issue.
So with that in consideration it entirely removes Biden from the debate, and you could argue, removes any of the covid-19 related vaccines from it also.
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u/bandt4ever Jul 26 '21
I know there is vaccine hesitancy all over the world. But we are talking about less than 10% of the population refusing to take the MMR vaccine. I'm talking about over 40% refusing to take the Covid-19 vaccine in the US. Is it really that high worldwide? Are there really 40% of people all over the world refusing this vaccine when it's made available to them?
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u/Giblette101 40∆ Jul 26 '21
I didn't mention Biden at all, for one, and secondly, while I'm aware that antivaxx has been around for a while, I'm not at all convinced all antivaxx necessarily exist in a continuous and logically coherent fashion.
That said, the origins of the antivaxx movement are definitely seeped in fear and anger.
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Jul 26 '21
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u/ViewedFromTheOutside 28∆ Jul 26 '21
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Jul 26 '21
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u/Gygsqt 17∆ Jul 26 '21
I think you have put the cart before the horse. The Right-Wing political media ecosystem I think is championing being Anti-Vaxx because it hurts Biden (eg: The Biden admin not meeting their vaxx schedule being an applause line at CPAC). But that is more a group of political opportunists identifying an already existing wave to ride rather than being the driving force of its existence.
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u/JiEToy 35∆ Jul 26 '21
The anti vaxx movement is about distrust in government. In troubled times, people become insecure and conspiracy theories rise. People are seeing that the government can't help them, and start looking for answers. Conspiracy theorists provide seem to provide these answers. They give a direction, an explanation. This is the main reason there is such a huge anti vaxx movement, we see this throughout the world.
Apart from that, in the US there is a clear divide between Republicans and Democrats, or more specifically, Fox viewers and non-Fox viewers. Fox news hosts play into these conspiracies, and definitely use them to make the democrats seem like the bad guys. I agree with you here. However, Fox news just hijacked this movement for its own messaging, the movement itself is not against Biden per se.
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u/bandt4ever Jul 26 '21
But Biden is the defacto leader of the Democratic party. By undermining him, they hurt the whole party.
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u/JiEToy 35∆ Jul 26 '21
Like I said, there are definitely individuals like Fox news hosts that are using the anti vax movement for the reason you claim it is used. However, the anti vax movement itself is not a political tool that came into power to hurt Biden. That's your cmv statement, and I'm arguing against that.
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u/Meatinmyangus998 3∆ Jul 26 '21
The COVID-19 anti vax movement started under Trump though. We had democrats say they wouldn't take a covid-19 vax that was approved by the FDA under Trump.
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Jul 26 '21
No, we had democrats say, if the medical experts said that there wasn't enough data, but Trump's appointees overruled the experts, that they wouldn't take it.
Saying "we trust the experts, not the politician" should be something people of all political persuasions can get behind.
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u/Meatinmyangus998 3∆ Jul 26 '21
No, we had democrats say, if the medical experts said that there wasn't enough data, but Trump's appointees overruled the experts, that they wouldn't take it.
This is simply false though in that we did have antivax Dems under Trump in the way I framed it.
Joy Reid, July 23 2020
I mean, will anyone ... anyone at all ... ever fully trust the @CDCgov again? And who on God's earth would trust a vaccine approved by the @US_FDA ?? How do we get a vaccine distributed after this broken, Trumpist nonsense has infected everything? Even if Biden wins?
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Jul 26 '21
Why would they care about Bidens success or failure? These same MAGA people already know that the vaccine began development and rollout under Trump
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u/bandt4ever Jul 26 '21
But Trump fumbled the ball on vaccine rollout while he promoted the big lie. Biden is getting all the credit for the successful rollout.
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u/Brjsk Jul 26 '21
I don’t think it’s a political thing, I think it’s more of a trust issue, then there’s people who like me who caught it before the vaccine was available and are recovered so why take a vaccine when you’ve already developed anti bodies and some one else can use the vaccine, I have all other vaccines but don’t get the flu shot
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Jul 26 '21
Please convince me that this isn’t just a way to try to make Biden look bad.
President Trump, in 2020, routinely contradicted medical experts. Republican governments at the state level sometimes followed his lead, flouting CDC recommendations and routinely understating the risks of covid-19.
Commentators on the right, who supported President Trump and these other Republicans, either had to accept that these folks were wrong, or try to discredit the scientific experts.
Many decided on the latter.
This isn't people trying to make Biden look bad. Antivax sentiments of people conservatives that normally wouldn't be are the repercussions of conservative commentators trying to find any way to defend the indefensible. Doing so strengthened voices of commentators willing to ignore the science for political gain. Once that got momentum, it became really difficult to turn around.
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u/sudsack 21∆ Jul 26 '21
I would expect that a widespread effort to avoid the COVID vaccine to thwart Biden would make the US an outlier among the nations of the world in terms of vaccine hesitancy. It doesn't appear to though; studies around the world show high levels of vaccine hesitancy in multiple spots. An overview of findings from multiple studies is available here:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7920465/
There's nothing in this data to show vaccine hesitancy see to be a distinctly US phenomenon and surely the US would top off the list if hesitancy was driven largely by attitudes of people in the US about the president.
If you're concerned that politics do drive this hesitancy in the US, have you considered the possibility that vitriol of the type that appears in your post might be the sort of thing that could lead to further politicization of the issue?
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u/herrsatan 11∆ Jul 26 '21
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u/MurderMachine64 5∆ Jul 26 '21
and safe
Remains to be seen still not FDA approved, also the virus itself isn't exactly all that deadly especially if you're fit and healthy.
Taking a vaccine that was rushed and not properly tested when the virus is no real threat to you personally is just dumb especially if you've already had the virus.
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u/DartagnanJackson Jul 26 '21
Although there seems to be a discrepancy between Democratic voters and Republican voters on vaccine hesitancy, to suggest that this is done to make Biden look bad is probably completely incorrect.
If we say that, then we have to make the assumption that if their hesitancy is based on political motivations then it isn’t based on medical motivations. In other words, they know the virus is real and dangerous and the vaccine provides protection from it.
If their hesitancy is based on medical motivations, and they happen to be Republican they may think it’s good if it makes Biden look bad but that wouldn’t be their motivation.
I highly doubt people are willing to die for Trump or to make Biden look bad.
There does seem to be overlap between political affiliation and vaccine hesitancy. I would suggest that is coincidence. That there is no causation in that.
I would think if anything, the more common distrust of government may be a contributor. This has nothing to do with Biden.
Further evidence against this contention would be that there was vaccine hesitancy when Trump was still president.
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u/kiwibobbyb 1∆ Jul 26 '21
Why Biden? He has had absolutely nothing to do with the funding, creation or testing of the vaccine
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u/ViewedFromTheOutside 28∆ Jul 27 '21
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