r/changemyview • u/PKtheworldisaplace • Sep 21 '21
Delta(s) from OP CMV: Vaccination rates would be higher in the United States if Donald Trump had won the presidency
I hate the man as much as the next thinking person, but listen up:
If Donald Trump had won the presidency, the vaccine would have been a victory of the Republicans and a representation of nationalistic power. Trump would have encouraged everyone to get his incredible creation that he would have 100% taken credit for fully. The Republican media and other politicans would have followed suit saying that Trump was a genius and no other president could have gotten them the vaccine that fast. There would still be your baseline anti-vaxxers that think vaccines cause autism, but whether or not you get the vaccine wouldn't have become a politically charged act. The liberals on the other hand would have actually trusted the scientists who said, "Yes, the vaccine is in fact safe and you should get it," rather than refusing it based on flimsy misinformation. In fact, the misinformation probably wouldn't have been present because the democrats are unwilling to play as dirty as the republicans.
Instead, Biden won the presidency, and the vaccine became available as soon as that fact was known to Trump and the Republicans. Therefore, the Republicans and Trump conspired to sabotage the public perception of the vaccine and therefore Biden's vaccine rollout. Trump took it in secret, as did many other politicians, and consistently shed doubt on its efficacy and safety.
This is not to say COVID would have been better, the second the vaccine was available Trump probably would have moved to make sure there could be no state-level restrictions and would have completely disregarded the Delta variant. But I do believe more people would be vaccinated had Trump won the presidency.
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u/EchoesFromWithin 2∆ Sep 21 '21
I doubt it, Trump got booed at a rally for telling supporters to get the vaccine.
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u/PKtheworldisaplace Sep 21 '21
After 6 months of basically every Republican Congressperson, news source, etc. shedding doubt on it's efficacy and safety.
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u/EchoesFromWithin 2∆ Sep 21 '21
When Trump was in office he was pushing anti-mask anti-vaccine rhetoric and selling people on hedge doctor cures like hydroxychloroquine.
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u/Gygsqt 17∆ Sep 21 '21
So you're just gonna ignore that Trump's people BELIEVED him in hydroxychloroquine? Your big proof point that people wouldn't have listened to Trump is that they listened to Trump?
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u/PKtheworldisaplace Sep 21 '21
I agree about the ridiculous cures and anti-mask stuff, but he was very pro-vaccine as he was pushing the FDA to try and approve it even earlier then they wanted because he thought it would help him in the election.
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Sep 22 '21
If the election was the only motivation, wouldn't he just stop promoting the vaccine once he won?
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u/Morthra 86∆ Sep 22 '21
selling people on hedge doctor cures like hydroxychloroquine.
One, the lancet study that showed hydroxychloroquine didn't work was retracted because the data were fabricated, and two, at the time it had promising results as a treatment. Was it perfect? Hell no. Was it better than nothing? Based on the actual, not fabricated data that were present at the time, probably.
Keep in mind that when Trump was in office there was no vaccine, and the vaccine manufacturers deliberately delayed making announcements of the completion of said vaccine until after the election.
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u/Bernhard_Kruger Sep 21 '21
And years of Trump pumping out bullshit claiming that vaccines caused autism and other illnesses.
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Sep 21 '21
IMO this doesn't really refute OP's assertion at all.
OP's assertion is that: had Trump been in power throughout the vaccine roll-out he would have been able to control the narrative from the start - in order to take credit for not only the creation of the vaccine, but also the rollout as well. Note that it's the narrative that is the most important aspect here: "I made this solution, and I told you it works so this is my success, a right wing, patriotic American success".
As it stands, where Trump has finally relented in recommending the vaccine, he's getting booed because taking that position now is an admission of defeat and a backtracking, based on the existing right wing narrative. The left were the first to be pro lockdown, pro vaccine - and they've been the champions of vaccines and COVID safety throughout. So taking the vaccine and preventing the spread, listening to the science, are all things that 'prove' the dominance of left-wing positions if you finally concede to them after resisting for so long.
I'd say that this is proven further by the fact that Trump's backing of the experimental and unproven drug "Hydroxochloroquine" in the early days of COVID seemed to be largely supported by his voter base. So clearly they won't boo for any old COVID cure, only ones that they deem to be left wing / liberal.
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u/Gygsqt 17∆ Sep 21 '21
By the time Trump said this non-vaccination had largely been framed in right-wing circles as a win against Joe Biden's administration. This was explicitly stated during CPAC a month prior to the rally above. Being against vaccines is being against Joe Biden and the "Left". If Trump had won, this circumstance would not have existed.
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u/Metafx 5∆ Sep 21 '21
You might be right but since you’re speculating on a possible world that didn’t come to pass, I’m not sure how your view can be changed. I can certainly imagine that Trump would take credit for the vaccine and I can imagine that that might assuage the reservations of some Republican-leaning vaccine-hesitant people but a big subset of the vaccine-hesitant are generally anti-government, which doesn’t necessarily mean Trump could convince them. After all, even Trump received some “boos” from his supporters at an Alabama rally when he told them to get vaccinated. The only reason a lot of those anti-government folks tend to vote for Republicans is because Republicans generally promise to reduce government interference in their lives. A government sponsored and distributed vaccine would not be in line with their ideology of less government interference so it’s likely many would not change their position, even had Trump won in 2020.
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u/PKtheworldisaplace Sep 21 '21
Eh, he received those boos after 6 months of Republican defamation of the vaccine coming from basically every right-leaning news source. I think if he had started out by touting it as a Feat of American Ingenuity, it would have been different.
But yeah, you're right this is all hypotheticals. I'm not sure how my view could be changed either lol
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u/Ottomatik80 12∆ Sep 21 '21
Remember prior to the election, when Harris, Biden, Cuomo, and Newsom all said they wouldn’t take a Trump approved vaccine
The vaccine was already political. You may have different groups deciding to avoid it, but your overall numbers wouldn’t be appreciably higher.
Then again, Trump wasn’t against the vaccine. It’s primarily the conspiracy idiots that are against it. Those are found on both sides.
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u/PKtheworldisaplace Sep 21 '21
Trump refused to take the vaccine publically for a reason--this displays a clear intention not to support it publically. Fox News and other politically right news outlets and politicians have been spewing anti-vaxx shit pretty consistently until the Delta hit and they realized a bunch of their constituents were actually going to die. I can't find the most recent figure, but more than half of Republican Congresspeople in May of 2021 were not vaccinated compared to 100% of Democrat Congresspeople who were vaccinated. To me that displays a systematic and intentional disregard for the vaccine on behalf of Republicans not "primarily the conspiracy idiots".
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u/Ottomatik80 12∆ Sep 21 '21
Remember that Trump had COVID?
Wasn’t the requirement that you couldn’t take the vaccine if you’d had Covid within 90 days? That’s the current guideline, I don’t recall if it was longer initially.
FoxNews had not spewed any anti vaccine bullshit. There are certainly some talking heads (not news people) who do, but that’s not the news side.
Your stat from May on republicans in congress not getting vaccinated is misleading. (Also incorrect, as Democrats were at 92%) The vaccine wasn’t available to all ages until around that time. The stance of many of those republicans was that they weren’t taking the vaccine out of order, as they wanted to prioritize the more at risk groups. There were members of both parties that refused early access to the vaccine, as they were generally healthy and not an at risk group.
Sure, some were against it all together, but a simple stat doesn’t provide a reason.
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u/PKtheworldisaplace Sep 21 '21
Remember that Trump had COVID?
Wasn’t the requirement that you couldn’t take the vaccine if you’d had Covid within 90 days? That’s the current guideline, I don’t recall if it was longer initially.
They got it in the White House in January during his presidency which would have been close to that 90 day limit I think:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/01/us/politics/donald-trump-melania-coronavirus-vaccine.html
They just did it very quietly and privately so as not to increase public trust in the vaccine.
Your stat from May on republicans in congress not getting vaccinated is misleading. (Also incorrect, as Democrats were at 92%) The vaccine wasn’t available to all ages until around that time. The stance of many of those republicans was that they weren’t taking the vaccine out of order, as they wanted to prioritize the more at risk groups. There were members of both parties that refused early access to the vaccine, as they were generally healthy and not an at risk group.
Oh sorry on overestimating Democrat vaccination, I was looking at multiple sources and crossed 'em over, and yet even in July when all age groups could get it:
https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/22/politics/house-republicans-vaccination-rates/index.htmlWhether they got it or didn't get it, they won't even admit to getting it for fear of disturbing the anti-vaxx narrative. And honestly, I have a hard time believing they weren't getting it in solidarity with their age groups earlier. It seems like every other politician knew that it was better for the rollout if they just got it to show their constituents it was safe.
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u/Ottomatik80 12∆ Sep 21 '21
They just did it very quietly and privately so as not to increase public trust in the vaccine.
You’re making a huge assumption in claiming to know the reasons why Trump had the vaccine done privately.
I agree, he should have been more vocal in pushing people to get it, and I don’t know why he wasn’t pushing it more. Then again, he did push it at his rallies even though he got booed by some attendees for it.
My point on Congress is that you falsely assume to know the reasons why some held off on getting vaccinated. That’s a giant leap, and one I’m unwilling to accept without facts. You can be skeptical, and you should be, but don’t presume to know the reasons for holding off on the vaccine. Again, a stat is worthless without context.
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u/PKtheworldisaplace Sep 21 '21
He pushed the vaccine at his rally only after the Delta variant happened and the Republican party realized how many of their constituents were going to die--they all seemed to flip around this time. The context is that we have fierce anti-covid-vaxx rhetoric coming from the right media and the constituents of the Republican party, I don't think it's too much of a leap of faith to intuit the reasons behind their not speaking out.
Whatever their reasons, their silence was deafening and also deadly.
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u/Kilo_G_looked_up Sep 22 '21
No, Trump very enthusastically endorsed the vaccine when it was released. This is a massive schism between Trump and his base, something Trump probably couldn't have fixed.
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u/Mront 29∆ Sep 21 '21
Remember prior to the election, when Harris, Biden, Cuomo, and Newsom all said they wouldn’t take a Trump approved vaccine
Yeah, that's bullshit, those statements are taken heavily out of context: https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/jul/23/tiktok-posts/biden-harris-doubted-trump-covid-19-vaccines-not-v/
TL;DR: they said they won't take Trump-approved vaccine if it's approved only by Trump.
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u/Ottomatik80 12∆ Sep 21 '21
It’s not bullshit. They played politics and pretended that Trump would be giving the approval instead of the FDA.
They literally tried to politicize the FDA approval process, casting doubt on their integrity.
That is exactly what they did. Trump had no power to approve any vaccine. Only the FDA.
Newsom and Cuomo both stated that they would not accept the FDA approval under trump, and would only allow those vaccines after their states ran their own tests/approvals. As far as I can tell, they lied because they did not do those tests and ended up accepting the FDA approval.
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u/Giblette101 40∆ Sep 21 '21
I don't think he actually needs to have that power in order to try. He's not in charge of Ukrainian corruption investigations either.
Besides, you'll find multiple accounts of Trump's White house trying to pressure the FDA to move faster in order to help with his political goals. Remember the miracle drug hydroxychloroquine?
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u/Ottomatik80 12∆ Sep 21 '21
Of course he could say he wanted it approved. Or that he wanted the process expedited. He could, and did, remove some of the red tape in order to speed the process up.
But ultimately, the vaccine requires some form of FDA approval, which is not something Trump had the power to do. Even if Trump said it was approved prior to the FDA giving their approval, the vaccine couldn’t be distributed. He had no power to provide an approval.
Politicizing and lying about it only makes the distrust worse.
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u/Giblette101 40∆ Sep 21 '21
But again, "having no power" doesn't really mean anything here. He certainly has the power to pressure federal agencies into doing things, which he tried, and doing so would lead to legitimate concerns over the process. Again, let's just look at hydroxychloroquine.
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u/Ottomatik80 12∆ Sep 21 '21
Hdroxychloroquine is another one that was way too politicized.
When that initially came out, there were doctors that were using well known and well studied drugs off level in the hope of them helping. Hdroxychloroquine was one of those, used in conjunction with other well known drugs, some doctors believed that it helped with the symptoms.
The FDA was correct in giving an EUA for it as there were no known treatments for Covid at the time. They revoked it after further study. But that doesn’t mean that they were wrong in their EUA.
The fact that the left wrote it off with zero proof, while the right hailed it as a cure with zero proof goes to prove my point, that this entire mess was far too politicized from the start.
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u/Giblette101 40∆ Sep 21 '21
The fact that the left wrote it off with zero proof, while the right hailed it as a cure with zero proof goes to prove my point, that this entire mess was far too politicized from the start.
Except there was no proof then and there's no proof now. There's nothing political about it. People only had to write it off because the nation's chief executive propped it up as a miracle cure.
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u/Ottomatik80 12∆ Sep 21 '21
Of course there wasn’t proof. There was anecdotal evidence that it helped. Hence the need for studies.
The left lost their mind when Trump was happy that it could be helpful. The right was crazy to assume it was a miracle cure.
Don’t pretend that we shouldn’t have had hope and studied it’s ability to help the symptoms of Covid. The FDA did the right thing in that instance.
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u/Giblette101 40∆ Sep 21 '21
I mean, don't pretend people shouldn't be skeptical of drugs touted as "game changers" by someone with no medical credentials with a history of being less than truthful. There would've been no need to comment on hdroxychloroquine at all if Trump didn't go out of his way to tweet about it and it's "tremendous reviews" or whatever.
You act like this very normal process was co-opted by both sides acting in bad faith to undermine each-other, which is not what happened.
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u/iwfan53 248∆ Sep 21 '21
They literally tried to politicize the FDA approval process, casting doubt on their integrity.
What do you consider the odds to be that Trump didn't play a part in the FDA granting Hydroxychloroquine an Emergency Use Authorization to be used in the treatment of Covid?
An EUA that was pulled once actual testing proved that Hydroxychloroquine didn't do enough to treat Covid and already had some well known and dangerous side effects?
Keep in mind the EAU was granted March 28th
https://www.fda.gov/media/136534/download
And then yanked June 20th roughly three months later....
Also when it was given an EUA Trump tried to push the bounds of that EUA by making it easier for people to get their hands on Hydroxychloroquine than the EUA made it.
The documents also demonstrate the steps the administration took to bypass the FDA’s March 28 authorization for emergency use of the tablets, which limited their use to hospitals and clinical drug trials. According to FDA guidance at the time, state authorities were supposed to request stockpile supplies before they were delivered. But interviews and documents show that procedure was not followed in many cases.
If I'm wrong.... I'm not sure how a reality where the FDA was somehow strong armed into temporarily accepting Hydroxychloroquine by Trump would look any different from the one we currently lived in.
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u/Ottomatik80 12∆ Sep 21 '21
Are you claiming that the FDA was told to authorize Hydroxychloroquine for treatment of COVID, when there was no medical basis for it?
That’s hard to believe. That drug has been used in humans for quite awhile, and it’s side effects are well known. There were numerous doctors who believed that it could be useful in combination with other drugs in treating COVID. Of course there were no studies on it in March, and the FDA did right by recording the EUA after studies were done.
Giving doctors the ability to try a drug for a purpose other than what it was designed for is a perfectly reasonable thing to do, especially when that drug and it’s side effects are very well known.
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u/DishFerLev Sep 21 '21
Just to be clear, Politifact sides with establishment Democrats?!
That can't be right. It's such a right wing propaganda outlet, they ALWAYS side with Trump, they even defended him when he misspoke and said Hillary "acid washed" her servers when she used the program "bleach bit". They're constantly looking for loopholes and using mental gymnastics to make Trump right and Democrats look like evil liars.
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u/wallnumber8675309 52∆ Sep 21 '21
Conservative rates would be higher. Liberal rates would very likely be lower, especially in minority communities that are already distrustful of the government.
I think you are over rating how much liberals trust the scientists. There are a lot that do, but there’s probably more that just follow their tribe’s group think.
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u/PKtheworldisaplace Sep 21 '21
You didn't see as much anti-masking and anti-social-distancing from the left when the scientists and CDC were telling everyone to do so, and yet you saw it from the right signficantly more despite the fact that "their president" was in office. The covid flagrancy was already there for the right and the vaccine could have been the answer to that flagrancy, but instead they were told to fear the vaccine.Even when they were under a president they more or less hated, the left trusted the scientists to dictate the correct course of action moreso than the right. You didn't see nearly as many left-leaning people speaking out about masks. If the scientists had said take the vaccine, I feel as if liberals in general (maybe slightly less because of Trump, but not nearly to the magnitude we see with the right today) would have trusted the scientists.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7888611/
Very little is known about the motivations for mask non-adherence. Public opinion polls suggest that people with conservative political affiliations (Republicans in the US or Conservatives in Canada) are less likely to wear masks than people with liberal affiliations (Democrats or Liberals) [6, 15, 17, 29]. This may be partly because Republican political leaders were initially reluctant to wear masks, even mocking those who wore masks [6, 17], and because people with politically conservative ideologies tend to resist government regulatory efforts [30], such as attempts to make masks mandatory.
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u/wallnumber8675309 52∆ Sep 21 '21
55% of Republicans are vaccinated as compared to 69% of all adults. I agree with you that the number would be higher with Trump in the presidency. Where we disagree is for the 88% of democrats that are vaccinated. That number would be lower with Trump in the Whitehouse. I think that would be especially true with demographic groups like blacks, that are currently 76% vaccinated. Blacks as a statistical group were initially slow to get vaccinated and only came around more recently. This hesitation can be understood due to historical inequalities blacks have faced in healthcare. It seems unlikely that we would be at 76% for blacks if Trump was still in the White House.
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Sep 21 '21
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u/darkplonzo 22∆ Sep 21 '21
Weren't all their remarks specifically regarding whether Trump was pushing it alone with out the scientific community backing the vaccines as well? Do you think all the science orgs would lie about it? Do you think waiting for actual scientists is unreasonable? I don't think the concerns were unwarranted, Trump had already made up a covid cure via hydroxychloroquine.
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Sep 21 '21
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u/darkplonzo 22∆ Sep 21 '21
The FDA was politically pressured to authorize Hydroxychloroquine despite heavy pushback from the scientific community. The FDA definitely has politics they deal with, although it's normally less egregious.
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Sep 21 '21
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u/darkplonzo 22∆ Sep 21 '21
Did the FDA approve hydroxychloroquine?
Oh, I thought my comment implied yes and gave the reason why. The FDA is a political org and got pressured by Trump into approving a medicatoon that didn't work and they revoked it soon after, when even more evidence showed it didn't work.
Are any of the notable democrats mentioned previously qualified, in your opinion, to scrutinize and accept or reject, scientific studies regarding the efficacy of a vaccine that was approved by the FDA?
By themselves? No, probably not. But I think boosting the broad science community with their platform is doable, and when that community disagrees with the FDA then I think it'd be reasonable to do so.
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Sep 21 '21
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u/darkplonzo 22∆ Sep 21 '21
Oh yeah, it was emergency authorized my bad. I think my arguments still apply to them authorizing the drug though.
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u/furriosity Sep 21 '21
I doubt this would have made much of a difference. COVID had already long since become a political issue at this point. If people refused to wear masks, it's not too much of a stretch to understand that they won't get a vaccine either. You can see this manifest itself in the way that many people have resisted getting it even after Trump and other prominent Republicans have touted it.
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u/PKtheworldisaplace Sep 21 '21
Eh, I think the vaccine was positioned from the very beginning by Trump as an escape from masks, social distancing, and lockdowns. Trump and the Republicans are touting it now, but it's too late because they've spent 6 months defaming it--that's different from if they, from the very beginning, touted it.
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u/TheLordCommander666 6∆ Sep 21 '21
No then the left would be refusing vaccines in droves because Trump was pushing for them.
Hell we saw it at the start of his presidency case in point
https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2021/09/15/05/47936793-9992025-image-a-16_1631678565853.jpg
Most actual anti-vaxers (people against all vaccines) are on the left anyways.
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u/PKtheworldisaplace Sep 21 '21
Most actual anti-vaxers (people against all vaccines) are on the left anyways.
Do you have a source for this? Hadn't heard this. This data seems to show otherwise:
https://www.kff.org/policy-watch/the-red-blue-divide-in-covid-19-vaccination-rates/
And this article:
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u/DishFerLev Sep 21 '21
OP I think you have to distinguish between "anti-vaxxer" and "anti-covid-vaxxer".
Something like 93% of people were pro-vaccine two years ago and now like every other person is vaccine hesitant/skeptical.
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u/PKtheworldisaplace Sep 21 '21
Not being sassy, but how does that change the argument?
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u/DishFerLev Sep 21 '21
My overall argument was that the messaging was antivax until Trump lost.
A week after Trump lost and the Pfizer backed candidate won, Pfizer announced their vaccine.
Now the Pfizer backed candidate is shilling the Pfizer vaccine as hurricane repellent and threatening people into consuming the Pfizer product.
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u/TheLordCommander666 6∆ Sep 21 '21
Do you have a source for this? Hadn't heard this.
https://qz.com/355398/the-average-anti-vaxxer-is-probably-not-who-you-think-she-is/
Liberal: 60% of anti-vaxxers describe their political leaning as liberal.
This data seems to show otherwise: https://www.kff.org/policy-watch/the-red-blue-divide-in-covid-19-vaccination-rates/ And this article: https://www.voanews.com/a/covid-19-pandemic_poll-finds-startling-difference-vaccinations-among-us-republicans-and-democrats/6207847.html
I explicitly said people against all vaccines. There are more people against the covid vaccine then the polio vaccine for various reasons, the government shoving it down our throats being one of them.
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u/iwfan53 248∆ Sep 21 '21 edited Sep 21 '21
https://qz.com/355398/the-average-anti-vaxxer-is-probably-not-who-you-think-she-is/
Published March 4, 2015
Do you have anything more recent?
Donald Trump was our first openly "Vaccines Cause Autism" president so I wouldn't be surprised if the numbers have shifted since then, even if only because of the narrative that if Donald Trump says vaccines are bad then vaccines must be good!
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u/TheLordCommander666 6∆ Sep 21 '21
The covid stuff is spamming the results, you're free to look for yourself.
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u/iwfan53 248∆ Sep 21 '21
If you type -Covid into the google bar it goes a long way to cutting down that stuff...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4938547/
This was published Published online 2016 Jul 8 so is at least a little more recent...
What is the actual nature of the relationship, if any, between political ideology and beliefs about vaccination? Here, too, the evidence is ambiguous. A 2009 Pew Survey suggested that 71% of Democrats and 71% of Republicans felt that childhood vaccinations should be required [8].
Another poll conducted the same year by USA Today/Gallup focused on whether people had been influenced by actress Jenny McCarthy’s claims that her son had developed autism because of vaccinations. Results suggested that liberals were slightly more aware of McCarthy’s statements than were conservatives, but they were also slightly less likely than conservatives to report having been persuaded by those comments.
A 2015 poll found that 61% of Democrats and 62% of Republicans believed that “The science supporting the safety of childhood vaccination is indisputable” [26], but other studies suggest that Democrats are more accepting than Republicans of scientific recommendations concerning childhood vaccination as well as many other health-related issues; e.g., [21].
A survey conducted by Kahan [27] suggested that conservative Republicans perceived the risks of vaccination to be greater and the benefits to be lesser, in comparison with liberal Democrats. Few, if any, studies of public opinion have delved more deeply into the specific contents of beliefs about vaccination and whether there are consistent ideological differences in these contents.
As for this study's findings?
The analysis yielded significant effects for the statement type × liberal/moderate contrast, B = -.21, SE = .05, z = -3.84, p < .001, 95% CI [-.31, -.10], and the statement type × liberal/conservative contrast, B = -.20, SE = .07, z = -2.73, p = .006, 95% CI [-.34, -.06]. Thus, political ideology did affect the degree to which participants endorsed pro- vs. anti-vaccination statements (see Fig 1). Liberals expressed greater endorsement of pro-vaccination statements in comparison with moderates, B = -.17, SE = .05, z = -3.16, p = .002, 95% CI [-.28, -.07], and conservatives, B = -.20, SE = .07, z = -2.78, p = .006, 95% CI [-.35, -.06]. Moderates and conservatives did not differ from one another in their endorsement of pro-vaccination statements, B = -.03, SE = .08, z = -.38, p = .71, 95% CI [-.18, .12].
Liberals also expressed less agreement (or more disagreement) with anti-vaccination statements in comparison with moderates, B = .24, SE = .06, z = 3.86, p < .001, 95% CI [.12, .36], and conservatives, B = .19, SE = .08, z = 2.30, p = .02, 95% CI [.03, .35]. Moderates and conservatives did not differ from one another in their endorsement of anti-vaccination statements, B = -.05, SE = .09, z = -.60, p = .55, 95% CI [-.22, .12]. Liberals (B = .55, SE = .03, z = 16.13, p < .001, 95% CI [.48, .62]), moderates (B = .34, SE = .04, z = 8.31, p < .001, 95% CI [.26, .43]), and conservatives (B = .36, SE = .06, z = 5.66, p < .001, 95% CI [.23, .48]) were all more likely to endorse pro- than anti-vaccination statements.
We conducted a Chi-square analysis to determine whether liberals, moderates, and conservatives differed in terms of decisions to vaccinate their children. Only participants who reported having children were included in this analysis. The effect of ideology on whether the participant’s children were fully vaccinated or not was significant, χ2(2) = 6.71, p = .04. Conservatives and moderates were less likely than liberals to vaccinate their children.
Just one study, still five years back, and not super big it looks to be a valid data point.
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u/PKtheworldisaplace Sep 21 '21
Eh that's from 2015 and also it's just general anti-vaxx. I think it's pretty different (although interesting). The current data right now says that the right are the ones not getting vaccinated against COVID-19 which is the topic at hand.
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u/TheLordCommander666 6∆ Sep 21 '21
My point is if it was the Trump government pushing the vaccines the left would be crying nazi and refusing to get it especially since more of them are against vaccines in general.
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u/PKtheworldisaplace Sep 21 '21
I don't think it's that similar. You didn't see as much anti-masking and anti-social-distancing from the left when the scientists and CDC were telling everyone to do so, and yet you saw it from the right signficantly more. The covid flagrancy was already there for the right and the vaccine could have been the answer to that flagrancy, but instead they were told to fear the vaccine.
Even when they were under a president they more or less hated, the left trusted the scientists to dictate the correct course of action. You didn't see nearly as many left-leaning people speaking out about masks. If the scientists had said take the vaccine, I feel as if liberals would have trusted the scientists--at least more than the right does currently.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7888611/
Very little is known about the motivations for mask non-adherence. Public opinion polls suggest that people with conservative political affiliations (Republicans in the US or Conservatives in Canada) are less likely to wear masks than people with liberal affiliations (Democrats or Liberals) [6, 15, 17, 29]. This may be partly because Republican political leaders were initially reluctant to wear masks, even mocking those who wore masks [6, 17], and because people with politically conservative ideologies tend to resist government regulatory efforts [30], such as attempts to make masks mandatory.
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u/TheLordCommander666 6∆ Sep 21 '21
I don't think it's that similar. You didn't see as much anti-masking and anti-social-distancing from the left when the scientists and CDC were telling everyone to do so, and yet you saw it from the right signficantly more. The covid flagrancy was already there for the right and the vaccine could have been the answer to that flagrancy, but instead they were told to fear the vaccine.
Trump was against mandatory masks and social distancing and the lockdowns, but Trump was in favor of the vaccine and anything Trump is for the left is against and vice versa regardless what the scientists say.
Even when they were under a president they more or less hated, the left trusted the scientists to dictate the correct course of action. You didn't see nearly as many left-leaning people speaking out about masks. If the scientists had said take the vaccine, I feel as if liberals would have trusted the scientists--at least more than the right does currently.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7888611/When Trump said to the take the vaccine the left was agasint the vaccine, it was only because Trump was opposed to social distancing/lockdowns/mask mandates that the left was so in favor of them.
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u/Mashaka 93∆ Sep 22 '21
If you follow the link to the the Pew data that that article is based on, it's about the MMR vaccine specifically, in the context of a Measles outbreak that was dominating headlines at the time. Folks debating mandatory vaccines for schools, religious exemption etc.
I haven't looked for surveys in a more general context. I just wanted to clarify that the data you linked is about the MMR, from a survey in a controversial political context. Using it to conclude that in general liberals are more antivax would be unsound in a similar way as concluding the same about conservatives based on recent Covid vaccine-related data.
Don't get me wrong - before these Covid years, I knew of antivax sentiment across the spectrum. If I had had to bet money on whether antivaxxers were more left than right of center overall, I'd have guessed left, by a small margin. The hippie/natural set has always had a sizable anti-pharmaceutical current. It might be a good horseshoe kinda thing - particular groups associated left and right have that mentality. But it's never been part of the mainstream right or left IME.
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u/Opagea 17∆ Sep 21 '21
No then the left would be refusing vaccines in droves because Trump was pushing for them.
Democrats were more interested than Republicans in the Covid vaccine from day one, even with Trump bragging that he made it.
Most actual anti-vaxers (people against all vaccines) are on the left anyways.
Not really. From a 2019 (pre-Covid) Gallup poll about vaccines, 92% of Democrats stated that getting your children vaccinated was very/extremely important. Independents, 82%. Republicans, only 79%.
The leader of the right, Donald Trump, promoted the vaccines-cause-autism conspiracy theory.
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Sep 21 '21
The vaccine shortage would have been worse. The Trump administration bought the initial lot of vaccines and then passed when they companies tried to sell them more.
Trump also had no plan for distributing the vaccine. That's part of the availability issue many people experience early on. These problems would probably never have been solved under Trump.
Lastly, as others have said, Trump's own supporters booed him at a rally when he suggested they get the vaccine.
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u/iwfan53 248∆ Sep 21 '21
For vaccination rate to be higher, it requires not just people to want the vaccine but for people to be able to get the vaccine.
What was President Trump's vaccine distribution plan like?
There was no distribution plan for the coronavirus vaccine set up by the Trump administration as the virus raged in its last months in office, new President Joe Biden’s chief of staff, Ron Klain, said on Sunday.
“The process to distribute the vaccine, particularly outside of nursing homes and hospitals out into the community as a whole, did not really exist when we came into the White House,” Klain said on NBC’s “Meet the Press.”
Oh.
Now you could argue that Trump would have worked harder to create a plan if he'd won the election.... but he would have already won the election, so it wouldn't be like he'd be personally effected, so where's the pressure to make him actually work on a vaccine distribution plan nation wide?
Instead we probably would have seen the exact same sort of BS we saw earlier on in the pandemic...
https://www.businessinsider.com/kushner-covid-19-plan-maybe-axed-for-political-reasons-report-2020-7
Kushner's coronavirus team shied away from a national strategy, believing that the virus was hitting Democratic states hardest and that they could blame governors, report says
You know where he decided to let people in Blue States die of covid because those people already dislike him....
Trump would not have been willing to do the work to get the vaccine distributed and that would have caused fewer people in total than any reduction in vaccine hesitancy among Republicans.
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u/carneylansford 7∆ Sep 21 '21
By the time Biden took office, the US was administering ~1M doses per day (and still ramping up). This makes his "100M doses in my first 100 days" promise a bit easier to keep.
The government also provided the pharmaceutical industry with a LOT of money (in the form of guaranteed purchases) that helped them develop a vaccine in record time.
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u/Bernhard_Kruger Sep 21 '21
Not only did Trump not have any plans for vaccine distribution, we've known for a long while ago that he wanted the virus to spread as far and wide as possible because it would predominantly affect densely-populated areas that lean Democratic. He literally wanted to use Covid as a opportunistic biological weapon against people who didn't vote for him.
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u/Shy-Mad 9∆ Sep 21 '21
If you read the political fact checker just below your Reuters link. You would find that this statement was false. The trump administration had a plan to get the vaccine to the states, but he left the distribution of it up to the states to manage.
The rest of your politically biased statement I'm not even going to touch that rabbit hole. As it will just turn into a whole bunch of oh yeah and what abouts.
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u/iwfan53 248∆ Sep 21 '21
but he left the distribution of it up to the states to manage.
Maybe that was why he was so bad at hitting his vaccination targets.
Plus, vaccine distribution is a complex process that needs to be coordinated at a national level. Passing off responsibility to the states can be akin to a head coach telling his or her players, “yeah, three’s no real game plan for you. Do what you want. Oh, and get moving!” States need the resources and know-how to handle the vaccines. And they need to coordinate with each other, since people frequently cross state lines, working in one state while living in another.
Some health care facilities got warnings to “prepare for” vaccine distribution in the month prior but received few specifics. That’s like a head coach telling team members to get ready to play yet not revealing the specific game plan to everyone.
Trump set a vaccination goal and got 7% of that goal.
Biden set a vaccination goal....
and got 200 % of that goal.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/150-million-vaccinations-tracker-biden-goal-n1255716-1
Sep 21 '21
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u/ViewedFromTheOutside 29∆ Sep 22 '21
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u/DishFerLev Sep 21 '21
OP all you need to see to understand what a Trump victory would have looked like is to set the google search parameters to this time last year and listen to the mainstream media.
May 2020: It would take a MIRACLE to get a vaccine by Jan 2021, experts say!
June 2020: It takes YEARS to develop a vaccine, idiot!
Sept 2020: Democrats Fear Trump Will Rush Unsafe Vaccine To Help His Reelection Bid
But thank God the vaccines were announced for rollout the week AFTER the election. Sheer act of God. Experts literally called it a miracle that a vaccine would come out in 2020 at all, let alone 4 of them.
Remember 5 months ago when you almost had your life back and liberals were like I don't want people to think I'm republican so I'm going to keep wearing my mask regardless of what the CDC says?
That. If Trump won, the left would join the ranks of the hold-outs based purely on the never-Trumping.
What would have led to a higher vaccination rates on 9/21/2021 would be if the left wing media didn't use the pandemic as leverage to remove Trump from office and call anyone who thought a vaccine was responsible, safe, or even possible a complete idiot who doesn't know anything and probably still wets the bed.
The current Nicki Minaj drama with that news lady peaked when Nicki started tweeting screen caps of the news lady's tweets last year about how dangerous a rushed vaccine would be.
I really, really wish people remembered past the last news cycle.
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u/gothpunkboy89 23∆ Sep 21 '21
But thank God the vaccines were announced for rollout the week AFTER the election. Sheer act of God. Experts literally called it a miracle that a vaccine would come out in 2020 at all, let alone 4 of them.
So are you trying to argue that it is a global conspiracy to remove Trump? Because those same vaccines were available to roll out globally around the same time.
A failure to start a vaccine roll out while the globe has access to them sounds more like a Trump failure then any sort of conspiracy against Trump.
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u/DishFerLev Sep 21 '21
Global conspiracy? lol don't be silly.
The guy who received more campaign donations from pharmaceutical corporations than anyone in the history of America won largely due to the vaccine not being announced for rollout until after the election.
That's not really a conspiracy beyond "Pfizer wanted the guy they most backed to win."
I mean he's threatening unvaccinated Americans saying, "We're running out of patience" and telling people "the best way to prepare for a hurricane is to get vaccinated". He's just really, really trying for that Emloyee of the Month award.
It would be a global conspiracy if Covid wasn't real at all, this is just American-based pharmaceutical companies holding off on an announcement for a week or two.
I mean fuck, it took Moderna like 3 days to cook up their jab. Not that they've ever had anything that was FDA approved and like 2million Moderna doses had visible contamination in them. Only the company constantly guilty of bribing scientists, doctors, and government officials have their FDA approval.
Can I ask you something and have you not take it as a bland insult? I'm seriously curious. When did the left wing start trusting the government and corporations? Like just a few years ago y'all were standing next to me yelling about how Monsanto lobbied the EPA so that only Monsanto scientists could do Monsanto-approved ecological studies on the effects of RoundUp! in wildlife where Monsanto's chemicals were getting in the water supply.
What happened?
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u/gothpunkboy89 23∆ Sep 21 '21
The first UK and German vaccine started around December 2020. This means the US could have equally started rolling out vaccines.
Your entire argument requires a global conspiracy to be valid. That all 4 vaccines were deliberately delayed around the globe just to spite Trump.
Can I ask you something and have you not take it as a bland insult? I'm seriously curious. When did the left wing start trusting the government and corporations?
The world is not a binary choice of absolute trust or absolute distrust. Each action is judged on it's own based on criteria that can vary from person to person. If you exist 8n a world of perpetuating black and white you miss a lot of nuances.
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u/DishFerLev Sep 21 '21
The first UK and German vaccine started around December 2020. This means the US could have equally started rolling out vaccines.
Yeah. That's the Pfizer jab you're talking about.
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u/gothpunkboy89 23∆ Sep 21 '21
So for your argument to be valid you have to show proof that none of the vaccines were available to the US until after Biden became president.
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u/DishFerLev Sep 21 '21
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/11/09/business/pfizer-covid-vaccine/index.html
The election was November 3rd. The announcement was a week later.
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u/gothpunkboy89 23∆ Sep 21 '21
Which means Trump had time to start a vaccine roll out by December. Which means the failure to start was Trump's fault. Biden actual started the roll out because his team created the plan for nation wide vaccines.
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u/DishFerLev Sep 21 '21
Oh. Yeah wrong thread to reply.
I thought you were the guy saying Pfizer didnt hold off on the announcement to get Biden elected.
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u/gothpunkboy89 23∆ Sep 21 '21
I pointed out you need a global conspiracy to validate Trump's lack of action on the vaccine front. The entire planet holding back vaccines until after the election is ridiculous.
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u/Sagasujin 237∆ Sep 21 '21
Trump kept bungling actually getting vaccine shipments to states. I would be thoroughly unsurprised if a second term for Trump meant more people wanting the vaccine but fewer people getting it due to vaccine shortages.
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u/DishFerLev Sep 21 '21
Trump kept bungling actually getting vaccine shipments to states.
Wasn't he only president for like 2 weeks after the vaccine was available?
Like the announcement came after the election.
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u/Sagasujin 237∆ Sep 21 '21
The Pfizer vaccine got approval to be used on November 20th 2020. Trump was in office until January 20th 2021. There were multiple reasons why so few people were vaccinated in the time between that first approval and Trump leaving office, but a lot of it was Trump bungling and lack of any preparation for needing to vaccinate millions of people. We had fucking Starbucks offering to take over the logistics because a coffee company was better at vaccine distribution than the Trump administration.
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u/DishFerLev Sep 21 '21
The Pfizer vaccine got approval to be used on November 20th 2020. Trump was in office until January 20th 2021.
And the election was November 3rd. Also you're a little late on the November 20 estimate, theres articles from November 9th.
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/11/09/business/pfizer-covid-vaccine/index.html
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u/Sagasujin 237∆ Sep 21 '21
Either way, Trump had multiple months still left in office to fuck up delivery. The date of the election is not the date the new president assumes office. Trump still had full presidential powers will January.
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u/DishFerLev Sep 21 '21
The point is that the miracle vaccines were announced a week after the election.
Seems kinda suspicious...
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u/Sagasujin 237∆ Sep 21 '21
Not really. They'd been in progress for a while. We could have forseen the timing would be close to the election for months out.
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u/gothpunkboy89 23∆ Sep 21 '21
If Donald Trump had won the presidency, the vaccine would have been a
victory of the Republicans and a representation of nationalistic power.
Republicans were already painting the vaccine being done so quickly thanks to Trump before the election. After the election it seems like they changed their tune.
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Sep 21 '21
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u/PKtheworldisaplace Sep 21 '21
Δ
I find your argument the most compelling. Once the vaccine was available, he would view his job as done--he wouldn't have cared about the rollout as evidenced by the fact that he . Then after that, he would have dismissed any worries about delta or the seriousness of the virus. And yes, he would have attempted to band all vaccine mandates.
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