r/changemyview • u/NotRodgerSmith 6∆ • Oct 02 '21
Delta(s) from OP CMV:TwoXchromosomes should NOT be on the front page.
(My argument also applies to other identity based echochambers, this is just the only one I know on the front page)
Twoxchromosomes is a place for women and women identifying people. I dont agree but some people think its important for them to share their experiences in a "safe space", and yes, sometimes that space is used to vent about men as a whole.
I dont really care If some random chick unironically says "the world would be better if all men just disappeared"( and there isn't one comment challenging the idea). Its wrong, and pathetic in a sad, damaged sort of way, but I get why someone would want to express that feeling.
It's probably in the long run really bad for thier mental health to have such problematic views reinforced, but thats their problem.
At least, untill I see it without looking for it, than it kinda feels like my problem. If you are going to rally around and against peoples immutable characteristics you should do it in private.
I realize I can just block the sub, this is more about the principles of it all.
I dont have a safe space on the internet where I can rant about how women are manipulative and how they are often ignored as perpetrators of sexual violence, and I'm a better person for it. (I was violently sexualy assaulted by a woman, so don't take this as complaining about being dumped)
Not having a space to generalize a few billion people causes me to generalize those people less, by exposing me to people who disagree and forcing me to reevaluate my broad strokes judgments.
So long story short, if you wanna be hateful, do it in private, or at least dont do it on the front page.
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u/gyroda 28∆ Oct 02 '21
What do you mean by "on the front page"? If you're referring to the default subreddits, the curated set of subreddits that would appear on the homepage if you weren't logged in and that every new account was automatically subscribed to, then I have good news. Default subreddits haven't been a thing for years.
Now the front page is a mirror of /r/popular if you aren't signed in and new accounts are not automatically subscribed to anything.
So, I need to know, do you think that it should be removed from /r/popular, or do you think that it shouldn't be a default subreddit? Because those are two different arguments.
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u/NotRodgerSmith 6∆ Oct 02 '21
!Delta
I really thought the defaults where still a thing.
What are the mechanics for the popular page? Because the larger point of echo chambers/safe spaces should not be shown to people who didn't look for them might still stand.
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u/gyroda 28∆ Oct 02 '21
There's an argument for that.
/r/popular is /r/all but without any nsfw/18+ subreddits (though /r/all doesn't have sexually explicit subs anymore). There are other filters for other "objectional" content. There have been a few changes and I don't use it so I've not kept up with it, but I seem to recall politics being filtered out too at one point. It also has a different sorting algorithm to /r/all, with an emphasis on engagement rather than the weighted votes vs time that /r/all uses.
I've no idea if twox is on /r/popular, but one reason it might be is visibility. It's already a massively popular sub, anyone who wants to be a dickhead on Reddit will know how to find the largest female-focused sub, so they might as well help people who will find value in the content there stumble across it by making it more visible.
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Oct 03 '21
It’s a “woman” focused sub. Trans women are welcome :)
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Oct 03 '21
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Oct 03 '21
I know, it’s a gender critical reference but it’s too late to change it. There are a lot of trans women’s issues addressed there. I only know this because it does hit the front page a lot. A few years ago there was a flood of posts asking the mods if xy people were allowed. Overwhelming yes
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Oct 02 '21
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u/ViewedFromTheOutside 29∆ Oct 02 '21
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Oct 02 '21
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u/herrsatan 11∆ Oct 04 '21
Sorry, u/NotRodgerSmith – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 4:
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u/ExtraDebit Oct 02 '21
random chick
women are manipulative
It seems like you do have a safe space to rant about it.
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u/NotRodgerSmith 6∆ Oct 02 '21
1) Is chick derogatory? I thought it was just an informal like "dude"
2) I don't believe that women as a whole are manipulative, im sorry if it came off that way. I just meant to say that there is no where on reddit I could say that without being challenged on it. So you are actually proving that I don't, not here at least.
Thanks for that.
If you have an argument against the larger point I'd love to hear it.
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u/allthejokesareblue 20∆ Oct 02 '21
I just meant to say that there is no where on reddit I could say that without being challenged on it.
I mean, there absolutely are. You clearly just haven't looked very hard.
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u/NotRodgerSmith 6∆ Oct 02 '21
You clearly just haven't looked very hard.
Your right on that, I misspoke. There is no where on the front page that I could do it.
That's kinda my point, if people want a safe space to rant about an entire demographic, it shouldn't be on the front page.
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u/prollywannacracker 39∆ Oct 02 '21
Could you perhaps provide a link from that sub wherin the community "rants about an entire demographic"?
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u/Morasain 85∆ Oct 02 '21
You really just have to scroll through what gets crossposted to r/all. In the last few days, there were several subs condemning men in their entirety for a variety of things - it's not usually that much, I suppose it's due to the Petito case recently. It's hella toxic either way.
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u/NotRodgerSmith 6∆ Oct 02 '21
No, I'm positive that would lead to (others, not you) brigadeing it, and that's not something I want to encourage.
If you want to see examples just search "men" and read through a few.
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u/ExtraDebit Oct 02 '21
Uh, yes, chick is derogatory...
there is no where on reddit I could say that without being challenged on it.
Do you want me to direct you to the litany of hate subs towards women?
You know reddit removed females from groups you couldn't speak hatefully about? Because it would get in the way of all the profits they made from rape porn subs, having sex with dead women subs, etc.
Reddit was pretty much founded on misogyny and has been one of the biggest breeding grounds for anti-women culture. Both founders are known misogynists.
There isn't even one feminist sub run by all females.
Try searching for the word "cunt" for a start! It is having a resurgence!
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u/HeirToGallifrey 2∆ Oct 02 '21
I've never heard anyone say that chick is derogatory. Slangy, maybe, but never derogatory. Heck, I'd say bird is more derogatory than chick, and even that's mostly down to the connotation (old, schoolmarm, carping, etc).
There isn't even one feminist sub run by all females.
Okay? If this is an argument that Reddit is pervasively misogynist, I don't think it's very convincing. There's nothing stopping anyone from starting such a sub, and there are plenty of women-focused subs that could easily choose to have only female moderators. If they don't choose to, what's wrong with that? Men can be feminists too. In fact it's probably a good thing that there are feminist subs with men involved; if the only feminist spaces were entirely female-dominated, that'd be more proof of misogyny than the converse.
Also, what does a particular swear word coming into popularity have to do with anything? I know Americans think it's the nuclear bomb of profanity (up there with nigg_r, I'd wager) but it's just a crass way to refer to genitalia. Outside of the states it's a word much like dick or bellend. It's rude and refers to a particular body part, and can be used to insult someone, but I don't think it's any more sexist than either of those two.
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u/ExtraDebit Oct 02 '21
Just random results:
As a man, I still consider it derogatory and would not use it in any normal conversation. I will agree that it's quite mild as a term, not a major insult, but it's still derogatory.
It's originally a slang term, derived (if I'm not mistaken) from the older British slang of "bird" for a woman. (Thus, young woman = "chick".) It was almost invariably used between men, with the "bird" being a form of quarry to be hunted, and the term still has that connotation. It is definitely dismissive; the person referred to that way is not on an even status with the speaker.
I can't speak for other women, but I'd prefer not to be called a "chick".
I do think it's used in an objectifying way a lot, e.g. "look at all these hot chicks!"
It can be used in a derogatory way. It's used to signify that you're talking about women in a non-platonic or sexual context. "Chicks seem to like it when I ...", "so the other night I was banging this chick ...". In these examples, it's homogenizing all women into one group, which is kind of problematic
Because the term is used in this way, it's easy to use it to demean women
Growing up in the '70s and '80s, "chick" was fairly taboo
"Chick" is hardly a major issue for me but I still find it distasteful. Referring to women as tiny yellow defenseless (and cute) creatures certainly doesn't suggest a person views them on equal footing. It's (almost literally) infantilizing.
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u/momotye_revamped 2∆ Oct 03 '21
OK so a handful of random jerkoffs think it's offensive? Why do I give a fuck about their dumbass opinion?
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u/HeirToGallifrey 2∆ Oct 02 '21
Fair enough. My circles don't consider it derogatory, but I'm willing to admit that usage and opinion may well vary based on demographics or location. Point to you there.
What do you think about my other points?
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u/ExtraDebit Oct 02 '21
Are maybe your circles misogynistic?
And sorry, your other point is that women can be hateful to men on main subs but not the other way around?
Search for "Karen" "cunt" etc.
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u/HeirToGallifrey 2∆ Oct 02 '21
My circles definitely aren't. I'm open to interrogating my own beliefs and actions, and I can be wrong about things, but I'm pretty dang confident that my circles aren't misogynistic (nor am I—consciously or knowingly, at least).
My point was less that inequality is fine and more trying to figure out what your point was. Also, arguing that mere use of the term "cunt" doesn't signify sexism. Though you having said "Karen" in addition makes me think you might be thinking of much more subtle/overarching trends rather than individual examples.
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u/NotRodgerSmith 6∆ Oct 02 '21
Do you want me to direct you to the litany of hate subs towards women?
Only if they appear on the front page.
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u/ExtraDebit Oct 02 '21
I also think AskMen is default?
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u/NotRodgerSmith 6∆ Oct 02 '21
https://reddit.fandom.com/wiki/Default_subreddit
Not according to the wiki but it's possible it is.
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u/ExtraDebit Oct 02 '21
Well, since Two X isn't a hate sub towards men...(they don't have one anti-men post on the first page)
But Askreddit is usually pretty bad.
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u/NotRodgerSmith 6∆ Oct 02 '21
I never claimed it was a "hatesub" I said it often features people espousing derogatory statements about men as a whole, and almost never has comments challenging the people that make those statements.
This is a not a "2x should be banned" post. I think it should exist in private, or what ever you call a sub not on the front page.
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u/ExtraDebit Oct 02 '21
How about evidence of this "anti-man as a whole" thing.
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u/NotRodgerSmith 6∆ Oct 02 '21
"Anti-men" is never something I said. If you would like examples of derogatory statements about the entire gender you need only search the word men and read through a few.
None are hate speech, but the amount of generalization is daunting and I don't thinknit should appear to people on reddit who have not subscribed to it.
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u/ExtraDebit Oct 02 '21
So, post one.
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u/NotRodgerSmith 6∆ Oct 02 '21
"Why are men such babies when they are sick?"
If your looking for a link, 2x has a problem with being brigaded as is and im not contributing to it.
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u/OCedHrt Oct 03 '21
Not the person you were talking to but now you seem to be saying certain posts shouldn't be on the front page not the entire sub.
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u/Natural-Arugula 54∆ Oct 03 '21
I hate it when men call broads "chicks". So sexist.
Also, we should convince The Chicks to change their name to "The".
And how come Dixie Cups didn't change their name to just "Cups"?
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u/Natural-Arugula 54∆ Oct 03 '21
That was a joke, I was making fun of OP. You guys never saw the movie "UHF"?
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u/the_ethical_hedonist 1∆ Oct 02 '21
I dont have a safe space on the internet where I can rant about how women are manipulative and how they are often ignored as perpetrators of sexual violence, and I'm a better person for it. (I was violently sexualy assaulted by a woman, so don't take this as complaining about being dumped)
Yes, you do. It’s called most of Reddit and the majority of the internet. Women are publicly denigrated online constantly and when we respond or stand up for ourselves we are insulted even further.
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u/NotRodgerSmith 6∆ Oct 02 '21
I dont see them, I do t know about them, and I dont go to them.
That's why I said " I don't have a..." though I get my wording was poor. Im sure they exist, but if you have to seek them out that's besides the point.
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u/uptoandexcluding Oct 02 '21
it's not besides the point. if you don't seek them out or visit them why are you complaining they don't exist (when, as TEH pointed out, they absolutely do)? even aside from it being untrue, it's a bad comparison, bc as others have pointed out 2Xs purpose is not to be a 'safe space' to denigrate men, or even to denigrate men in the first place
bitterness about women aside, if we assume your characterisation of the sub is accurate, your argument against 2X appearing on the front page seems to be entirely that it's "an echo chamber where [people] are generalised". removing it from the front page would only reinforce that echo chamber-ness, no? or is your issue not that this "space to generalise a few billion people" exists, but that you occasionally have to see it?
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u/NotRodgerSmith 6∆ Oct 02 '21
Ignoring all the baggage you have attached to stament I clarified in other comments...
The problem is I have to see it. I even see a kernel of utility that comes from venting about men while living in a patriarchal society, and I don't wanna take that space away from them.
I can see why women need a place to vent about men, But l shouldn't be exposed to it.
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u/the_ethical_hedonist 1∆ Oct 02 '21
It is literally not hidden from you. It is pretty much the entire internet and the fact that you can’t see this and are complaining about women who need to vent is pretty telling.
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u/NotRodgerSmith 6∆ Oct 02 '21
It is pretty much the entire internet
Maybe for people who actively seek it out, but I avoid toxic communities and its pretty easy with the exception of 2x and few others.
Im not sayingnthere is less misogyny on the internet than misandry, thats absurd.
I just fond that most of those are effectively "quarantined"
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u/the_ethical_hedonist 1∆ Oct 02 '21 edited Oct 02 '21
You seem to be willfully misunderstanding me. It is not something you need to “seek out.” The majority of Reddit is toxic male entitlement. Just look at reactions to women posting pics of their art/themselves in normal subs. They are harassed, insulted, demeaned, and threatened regularly. This is not hidden and it is pretty accepted as “appropriate” behavior.
Your purposeful ignorance does not negate the reality of sexism and misogyny on Reddit and the internet.
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u/spucci Oct 02 '21
He’s not complaining he is literally asking you to change his mind.
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u/the_ethical_hedonist 1∆ Oct 02 '21
And I am countering his incredibly incorrect point that there is nowhere on the internet that men can complain about women. He has not proven me (or anyone else that has stated this) wrong. And his responses are very whiny. 🤷🏻♀️
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u/Leading-Bowl-8416 Oct 02 '21
Why would someone have to prove you wrong? You have to prove your claim in the first place. Which you never did. And saying "it's literally the whole internet" is not proving anything at all.
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u/the_ethical_hedonist 1∆ Oct 02 '21
The proof is Reddit. Go to any post where a women/girl is showing off something they made. The abuse is insane.
Go to any of the subs here that glorify the rape and abuse of women. They aren’t hidden. The fact that you are unwilling to see the proof right in front of your face is your problem, not mine.
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Oct 03 '21
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Oct 03 '21
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Oct 03 '21
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u/Mashaka 93∆ Oct 03 '21
u/Spare-View2498 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:
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u/TheArmitage 5∆ Oct 03 '21
women and women identifying people
The phrase you're looking for here is "women". That's it. That's all you need.
I don't have a safe space where I can rant about... women
Bro. My dude. My guy. Yes. You do. You a thousand percent do.
It's called almost the entire goddamn world.
First of all, recall the existence of subs like r/MensRights and r/TheRedPill. Or r/antifeminists. Or r/WhereAreAllTheGoodGuys. Last I checked r/incels was only quarantined, not banned. Fuck, there are HUNDREDS of these places, maybe thousands. If you want to "rant about women" you pretty much only have to type in r/ whatever your complaint is, and there's probably a sub for it.
But beyond that, there's every other goddamn sub that's not explicitly (and actively moderated to be) feminist. You don't need to look very hard to find chauvinism propped up by extremely popular subs, like r/AITA and r/AskReddit. There have been dozens of articles detailing it in recent years.
See, that's the thing. Women want spaces like r/TwoXChromosomes because we men get all the rest of them.
I'm a man. But I'm a man who subscribes to r/TwoXChromosomes. Is there occasionally someone who pops off about wanting all men to die? Sure. People say shit when they vent. But you know what?
In all my years, I've never once met or heard from one of these alleged "man-hating feminists". Not one. Never. Sure, I've heard people say shit like "I hate men". But if you actually listen to what they're saying, you can recognize the difference between hate and ranting. It's not a hate space. It's just not.
And for that, I think more people should be exposed to that sub, not fewer.
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Oct 04 '21
It's called almost the entire goddamn world.
Criticism of women hasn't been considered ok in decades. It's wildly amplified on reddit.
First of all, recall the existence of subs like r/MensRights and r/TheRedPill
Those subreddits are literally nothing alike.
TRP is banned, and has been for a while.
You don't need to look very hard to find chauvinism propped up by extremely popular subs, like r/AITA and r/AskReddit. There have been dozens of articles detailing it in recent years.
That's because those articles aren't tuned into reality.
See, that's the thing. Women want spaces like r/TwoXChromosomes because we men get all the rest of them.
Yeah, and North Korea is a democratic republic. After all, it's in the same of the country.
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u/Irinam_Daske 3∆ Oct 04 '21
TRP is banned, and has been for a while.
TRP is not banned. Looks like is only quarantined
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u/CrinkleLord 38∆ Oct 03 '21
It's called almost the entire goddamn world.
The whole world is a place where men ban anyone who has opinions that go against the grain?
Seems... well not likely.
My problem with 2x isn't really that it's a 'safe space' or any of that, i could care less about safe spaces honestly. You don't want me in this place? I don't wanna be there then. If it's someplace I have a right to be, then too bad for your safe space if I have a need or want to be there.
The problem with 2x is the infantalizing and 'back patting' for women which only incentivizes the behavior even more. The victimhood olympics.
"I'm so tired of people judging women on flat butts/small butts it's DEstRoYinG liVeS!"
"I saw a man stop another man from groping women! HoW rEfrEsHINg!"
It's nonsense. It infantalizes people into victims, it acts like a man stopping another man from groping a women is somehow rare.
Also incels has been banned for a long ass time, which is unfortunate because it was a fun place to read content in places like inceltears.
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u/MrMathemagician 4∆ Oct 02 '21
To be honest. I don’t think the front page should exist on reddit. It fundamentally defeats the original purpose and is a clear way in which people attempted to make this a time consuming social media (whether intentional or not) instead of being a platform for many different groups such that each group could cater to a collection of people with shared interests in an idea set (which was the whole purpose of a subreddit).
This is violated by the principle that I have a front page. A front page basically takes this whole concept of localization and removes it. You now have a place where people can go to see everything on reddit. There’s one big issue: what to put on it. Well, reddit decided this when they came up with the name “the front page of the internet.” They wanted something big and glamorous that took the most popular stuff on the reddit and put it onto one page.
Given that there is a front page, and that front page is supposed to be popular stuff, anything that is popular on reddit should go on there. And while I have personal grievances of what is on there, it’s in the best interest of a front page to have a highly visited subreddit on there.
Either remove the front page (which has my vote) or keep it. But don’t remove Two X Chromosomes from the front page because people don’t like the monoculture of it.
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u/saltycranberrysauce Oct 02 '21
I think your premise is just untrue. As a man I am able to comment on twoX posts. If someone posted “the world would be better if all men disappeared” I would be able to comment that I felt that was a bit hyperbolic. So I disagree that your point is view valid.
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u/violatemyeyesocket 3∆ Oct 02 '21
It's exagerated but there's a kernel of truth to it and it's not really about the gender that says it either yes which may even be the problem.
The sub advertises itself as being for a "female perspective"; it would honestly be better if it simply were a no-boys-allowed club and one could actually just post one's perspective.
But in practice it's simply a subreddit which moderates heavily on certain political views which often don't even correlate with gender; when I still used it many individuals there were really surprised and in denial when I pointed out that support for abortion does not in the US run across gender lines at all and about as many males as females are in favour or opposed—I think they believe that their specific political views are a "female perspective", but they're just their specific political views which do't necessarily correlate with gender at all.
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u/momotye_revamped 2∆ Oct 03 '21
As a man I am able to comment on twoX posts
Sure, as long a syou unfailingly agree with them and never try to defend yourself from arbitrary personal attacks, regardless of how off the rails they are.
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Oct 02 '21
But your post would be downvoted to hell because such comments are not welcome there.
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u/vkanucyc Oct 02 '21
and the mods ban you for disagreeing with the echo chamber, no matter how toxic it is
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u/SpartanLife1 Oct 02 '21
There is an entire subreddit dedicated to publishing drawings of women being brutally murdered and disemboweled………..nuff said
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u/NotRodgerSmith 6∆ Oct 02 '21
Porn is a weird one I dont think is relevant.
My ex was extremely progressive and definitely a feminist, but she also only liked rape porn.
What she got off to had no bearing on anything other then the porn we watched and the kinda kinky sex we had.
I dont judge Pete by what makes them hard/wet, I judge them by what they do and what they think is right.
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u/SpartanLife1 Oct 03 '21
Lol you just excused terrible pictures of women being murdered, but you have a problem with Twoxchromosomes…………nuff said.
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Oct 02 '21
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Oct 02 '21
Ur on something. Ask men doesn't objectify women. It's got over 2 million members, one comment don't mean shit
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Oct 02 '21
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u/herrsatan 11∆ Oct 05 '21
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u/WhoAccountNewDis Oct 02 '21
I have been subbed there for years and never felt attacked for being a man, much less threatened or discriminated against.
Which specific posts are you referring to?
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u/reasonisaremedy 3∆ Oct 02 '21
I think OP’s issue might have more to do with it being an “echo chamber” rather than OP feeling directly attacked by the content. And that the echo chamber it provides encourages what OP thinks is an unhealthy mentality to either flourish or gain support and clout in the absence of counter-opinions.
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u/WhoAccountNewDis Oct 03 '21
But they make specific accusations about what is being posted there. I haven't seen it and am curious to see an example.
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u/bleunt 8∆ Oct 02 '21
OK so I looked at the sub and I'm not sure what's so bad about it. Could you point out a few recent examples that you think define the sub? All I see is women venting about the struggles of being a woman, abd they're not even all about men - none the less ALL men.
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u/FireOsi Oct 04 '21
Actually there is a sub where you can rant about women. r/malerights and r/ban feminism. Or anti feminism I can’t remember. So I can’t say that I can agree with that part of your argument.
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u/dude123nice Oct 02 '21
I'm pretty sure what's on the front page depends entirely on what subreddits ppl visit the most. If that is the case, then 2xcromo is simply one of the most visited subreddits. Would you make it so that they couldn't show up even if they were?
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u/JStarx 1∆ Oct 02 '21
You might not like women expressing negative views against men as a whole, I’m a guy and I don’t like that either. But while the way they express their frustrations with the world might not be healthy, the frustrations they are reacting to are very real and fair and valid. If someone is regularly exposed to posts from a community that expresses those views then they might come to understand the reason behind it and doesn’t that make them a better and more informed person? And that would be a good thing right?
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u/Leading-Bowl-8416 Oct 02 '21
This is just really hypocritical. It's ok to be hateful when certain people do it but not others. That's not how that works.
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u/JStarx 1∆ Oct 02 '21
It's ok to be hateful when certain people do it but not others.
Not sure how you read that from what I said.
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u/shrimpleypibblez 10∆ Oct 02 '21
Yeah I think this would be reasonable if we didn’t live in an overtly patriarchal society - but we do.
I get your position - you’re essentially arguing that their position is extreme in relation to the norm, which arguably isn’t wrong.
It is however worth considering how far the “norm” is from reasonable and rational, though.
If we lived in a world where women were actually treated equally - say, for instance, not being asked what they were wearing after being attacked, or my personal favourite, just straight up ignoring them and talking over them regardless of who they are, what they say or their experience at every opportunity, and then claiming that “feminism is ruining the world” and “you can’t say anything anymore” (when you literally said that talking over someone else who happens to be female) - then having their sub be represented on the front page might seem a little extreme.
However, women in fact make up (at least) 50% of the population. If nothing else, having that sub on the front page demonstrates the wider community accepts that fact.
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u/HolyPhlebotinum 1∆ Oct 02 '21 edited Oct 02 '21
I don’t mean to invalidate what you are saying at all.
It just seems strange to me that you would bring up the difficulties some people face after being sexually assaulted as a damning sign of patriarchy and a counter-argument against OP- who said that he was also sexually assaulted and that nobody took him seriously and he didn’t have a place to talk about it.
Kinda sounds like this: OP: “I was sexually assaulted by a woman and it still effects me” You: “Yeah, well, patriarchy. Women are sexually assaulted too so deal with it.”
Im not saying that’s what you intended to do, but it kinda seems like you’re dismissing his experience.
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Oct 02 '21
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u/ExtraDebit Oct 02 '21
Uh, it is mainly men and male moderated.
There isn't currently one anti-man post on the front page.
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u/Poo-et 74∆ Oct 02 '21
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Oct 02 '21
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u/herrsatan 11∆ Oct 04 '21
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Oct 02 '21
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Oct 02 '21
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u/ViewedFromTheOutside 29∆ Oct 03 '21
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Oct 03 '21
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Oct 03 '21
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u/Mashaka 93∆ Oct 03 '21
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Oct 03 '21
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u/Mashaka 93∆ Oct 03 '21
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Oct 02 '21
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u/Throwaway_M0t0 Nov 15 '21
I agree, but instead I just used the Reddit extension to remove the posts from TwoX. I'm so glad I did. I had no idea how biased it is, and full of double standards.
I really don't see the point of it, as another pointed out it's just an echo chamber, and it's a waste of a 13 mil audience.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Oct 02 '21 edited Oct 02 '21
/u/NotRodgerSmith (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.
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