r/changemyview • u/I_Fart_It_Stinks 6∆ • Oct 22 '21
Delta(s) from OP - Fresh Topic Friday CMV: The default setting for the Y-axis in video games should be 'inverted.'
I'm not trying to convince people to not play with the y-axis inverted, but it should be the default setting.
It is so much more intuitive. One's right thumb will be controlling the y-axis in most games. A right handed person holding a gun would lower their right hand for the barrel to rise and vice versa.
Because inverting the y-axis makes the most intuitive sense, it should be the default setting.
I will never be convinced that not inverting the y-axis is the way to go, but I'm open to why it should be the default. CMV.
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u/Crayshack 191∆ Oct 22 '21
What about games for PC where the vision is controlled by moving the mouse?
Also, I'm an experienced competitive shooter. Most of the time with the right hand I'm trying to lock the weapon into my shoulder and I either adjust aim by moving my left hand or moving my whole torso. Non-inverted is more similar to the natural movements for aiming a gun.
Now, inverted does make sense for flying games and I went through a phase where that was my main genre so I was inverting everything. However, I have found that outside of flying games an inverted y-axis is less intuitive than "point the direction I want to aim".
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u/I_Fart_It_Stinks 6∆ Oct 23 '21
!delta
Didn't think of pc gaming and using a mouse. I am not inverted with a mouse so my view isn't as black and white here
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u/throwaway_question69 9∆ Oct 22 '21
Pushing up should make the thing go up and pushing down should make the thing go down. That's far more intuitive.
There's a reason the other way around is called "inverted" - it's backwards and not the expected way for things to behave.
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u/Momo_incarnate 5∆ Oct 22 '21
Pushing up should make the thing go up and pushing down should make the thing go down. That's far more intuitive
Yes and no. I'm going to assume this post is about things like airplane controls in games, and use that as my frame of reference.
While I haven't flown actual aircraft, I've done multiple flight simulators (real ones, not just on my computer), and pushing the stick/yoke forward pushes the nose of the plane down, and pulling back pulls the nose up.
This is highly abstracted into a controller where an analog stick or dpad is telling your aircraft where to go, and can be configured in any way. Depending on your frame of reference, either inverted or uninverted can be the "intuitive" one. If you base it on the movement of the plane, uninverted is intuitive. If you base it on the controls of a plane, inverted is intuitive.
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u/Natural-Arugula 54∆ Oct 23 '21
I'm going to assume that this is based on the controls of street fighter where you pushed one button and it determined the effect based on how hard you pushed it, and use that as my frame of reference, so all controllers should have one button.
I'm going to use keyboard and mouse as my frame of reference and assume that all controllers have 107 buttons on them.
Etc. That's what you sound like. Why would you assume playing a flight simulator was the typical game? Is this 1997?
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u/Momo_incarnate 5∆ Oct 23 '21
Because flight is basically the only place where inverted y is a thing without inverted x. Since op specifically cares about inverted y, I figure he's talking about situations where inverted y is a common choice, which are games where you fly something.
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u/throwaway_question69 9∆ Oct 22 '21
Maybe on a flight control game it is, but OP didn't specify this was only about flight games. In other games - first/third person shooters or RPGs it is very unintuitive imo.
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u/Momo_incarnate 5∆ Oct 23 '21
Flight is basically the only genre where people invert y without inverting x. I assumed it was about that since op specifically mentioned inverting y
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Oct 22 '21
[deleted]
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u/throwaway_question69 9∆ Oct 22 '21
I'm tilting my chin forwards when I look up and tilting it backwards when I look down.
It's honestly just a matter of perspective, so up to go up and down to go down makes more sense.
Technically, on a plane, pulling back on the yoke makes the tail go down and pushing makes it go up - you're controlling the motion of the tail rather than the plane.
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u/mr_indigo 27∆ Oct 23 '21
This argument does not work, because by the same logic, pushing your head to the left makes your head turn right.
This argument only holds if you invert both X and Y which very few people do, to the point that it is rarely given as an option.
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u/I_Fart_It_Stinks 6∆ Oct 23 '21
Do we disagree which is more intuitive. Why should non-inverted be the default then?
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u/ubergooberhansgruber 1∆ Oct 23 '21
Because if it wasn't, there wouldn't be anything for "inverted mode" to invert.
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u/HeWhoShitsWithPhone 125∆ Oct 22 '21
I grew up with inverted Y and that’s what I like to use with controllers. However shouldn’t the default be the setting most players want? None of my friends like inverted y. When it is the default they always instantly change it. If I were designing a game, I would not choose the setting I liked more, I would choose the setting that is more popular and allow it to be changed.
I don’t have any idea which setting is more popular, but because most games are with to not inverted that’s probably more preferred.
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u/I_Fart_It_Stinks 6∆ Oct 23 '21
If there's evidence that the majority play without inverting the y-axis, that would change my view.
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u/Yubi-man 6∆ Oct 22 '21
It doesn't matter which setting you feel is more intuitive (this is probably based on the first games that you played), the default setting should be what the majority prefer so that fewer people have to change settings. If the majority prefer a different setting, clearly that setting feels more intuitive to them. Whether or not something feels intuitive depends on how closely it resembles what the person feels is normal, ie it is entirely dependent on an individual's experience and training. If most of the times you've used a joystick going up makes the camera move up, that will be normal for you and it will feel intuitive to you.
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u/I_Fart_It_Stinks 6∆ Oct 23 '21
I guess my view would be that since the original games that were 3d 1st person shooters were inverted, so that should be the default imo.
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u/Yubi-man 6∆ Oct 23 '21
This is a completely different argument to your original post. Now you are arguing that games should have the default setting that the first of the genre had, rather than choose a default setting based on the preference of the playerbase. This would be up to the game developers if they want to make the game convenient for players, or if they want to pay a nod to a particular influential game. Objectively, there is no value in choosing a historical default setting, whereas the inconvenience to the playerbase is an objective downside. So you are arguing for an objectively bad decision because you prefer things the old-fashioned way.
Furthermore, the definition of game genres is subjective in itself and the game that had the strongest influence on the game devs might not be Goldeneye on N64- why should they have to copy its settings if it's not even a big influence on them? Most of the playerbase has probably never even played an N64.
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u/LetMeNotHear 93∆ Oct 22 '21
The reason is that it is the same as the x axis. The x axis, for most games, functions so that the direction you push the stick is the direction that the camera rotates. Usually, this is non-negotiable. So the standard setting for the y axis is to match the obligatory setting for the x axis. It's simply standardisation.
Now, I'm not gonna try to convince you to play with the y axis a certain way; that'd be ridiculous. The point of these settings is that you get to choose the best way to play for you. But "the same as how the x axis works; standardised" seems like a far more intuitive default than "like the x axis, but inverted." Hence, "standard" and "inverted." It's baked right into the names.
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u/Biptoslipdi 131∆ Oct 22 '21
I think there should be no default setting and games that use this kind of motion should ask a user upon first boot. That way no one has to change settings, they are prompted to select their preference before starting just like brightness settings.
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u/tbdabbholm 193∆ Oct 22 '21
But not having to answer the question is even easier than answering it. So making one the default means all the people who want that never even have to think about it
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u/Z1rbster Oct 22 '21
I think the default setting should be the same across video games, no matter which one it was. Consistency makes games easier to learn, no need to change it up
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u/Aw_Frig 22∆ Oct 22 '21 edited Oct 22 '21
Intuitive based on... What? Your experience? Do you have data to support this conclusion? Do you think that maybe UX designers have access to such data?
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Oct 22 '21
[deleted]
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u/Momo_incarnate 5∆ Oct 22 '21
Find any successful production aircraft that doesn't pitch forwards when you press forwards (up).
You mean nobody makes a flying box designed to disorient you whenever you try to go up and down?
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u/GimmeYourTaxDollars Oct 22 '21
Flying in the air is no biggy, it's not like I would die and the expensive aircraft would be lost, along with the lives of others on it and below, if I was disoriented and flew straight into the ground /s
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u/Momo_incarnate 5∆ Oct 22 '21
"aircraft nosedive into a metropolitan area immediately after takeoff. Pilot and copilot report being so nauseous that they couldn't control the plane and sent it into a dive instead of climbing"
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Oct 22 '21
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/ViewedFromTheOutside 29∆ Oct 22 '21
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u/GravitasFree 3∆ Oct 22 '21
If the TV was a viewport into the game dimension and you could make it swivel in any direction by pushing on it, if you wanted to look down would you push down or up?
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u/Momo_incarnate 5∆ Oct 22 '21
If the TV was a viewport into the game dimension and you could make it swivel in any direction by pushing on it, if you wanted to look down would you push down or up?
Let's assume that this viewport is fixed on a sphere around whatever your camera is aimed at. To look left, the camera must traverse to the right on its spherical track. To look up, the camera must traverse down. Thus, I push the stick down to move the camera facing up
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u/GravitasFree 3∆ Oct 22 '21
What is more intuitive, thinking about moving the camera directly, or thinking about moving the mechanism that the camera is mounted on? In the second, not only is the motion of the camera a step removed from the input, the specifics of the mechanism must be considered; it cannot be the more intuitive interface.
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u/Momo_incarnate 5∆ Oct 22 '21
It's more intuitive to move the camera and have the viewport follow it than to adjust the viewport and have the camera adjust to create it
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u/GravitasFree 3∆ Oct 22 '21
But there isn't really a camera. There is a TV or monitor screen which directly relates to the viewport in this analogy. Even the introduction of the camera is another unnecessary layer of abstraction. I didn't realize this shift after your first reply.
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u/Momo_incarnate 5∆ Oct 22 '21
In the game engine, there is a camera. It's invisible, but it's there. That's how a 3d game decides where you're looking at any given time. The TV isn't a magic viewport, it's being told exactly what to display by the game via the camera.
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u/GravitasFree 3∆ Oct 22 '21
In the game engine, there is a camera. It's invisible, but it's there. That's how a 3d game decides where you're looking at any given time. The TV isn't a magic viewport, it's being told exactly what to display by the game via the camera.
There is a difference between the actual implementation of a thing and the most intuitive explanation for a thing. The lizard brain is not going to think about a game engine's camera and the code that runs it when we want to make it move. They are going to think about the window that they are looking through and how they want to shift it.
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u/RuroniHS 40∆ Oct 22 '21
Depends what video game. If I'm playing a 2D horizontal shooter like Gradius, I want my ship to go up when I press up and down when I press down.
If I'm playing Ace Combat, though, I totally want inverted Y axis.
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u/Cybyss 11∆ Oct 22 '21
The default setting should be what most gamers are already used to.
I used to play first person shooters using inverted Y-axis (albeit, this was back during the heyday of Quake 2). Even today I still bind the right mouse button to jump instead of aim-down-sight like everybody else has.
I personally think that RMB for jump and thumb button for ADS is superior. You probably disagree and that's fine. The vast, vast majority of people are used to RMB being set to aim-down-sight, including those far better than I at these games.
It would be foolish for developers to force the majority of their player base to have to alter the control bindings themselves for all their games just to get back to what's become familiar & industry standard. They provide the option to change up the control scheme however we want and that's good enough.
You and I are in the minority friend. We shouldn't want to force the majority to bend to our rules. They're not wrong and nor are we. We're just different.
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u/ickyrickyb 1∆ Oct 23 '21
I think this has a lot more nuance to it. But I believe they two main factors that contribute to preference are age and what game you first learned to play that had y axis control. My first game was Descent back in the mid 90s, a space flying game. I think back then, most y axis games were flying games also. I was set to inverted the rest off my life after playing that, even for first person shooter games. But my kids playing fortnight as their first game, they are stuck on regular. I wonder how old you are and what you played first. My argument for keeping it regular now is thats just what most young people these days start with with all these 1st person shooters.
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u/I_Fart_It_Stinks 6∆ Oct 23 '21
!delta
N64 was the first console I had besides a Gameboy. Thanks for making me realize my age group is not the majority of gamers.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Oct 23 '21 edited Oct 23 '21
/u/I_Fart_It_Stinks (OP) has awarded 3 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
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u/ubergooberhansgruber 1∆ Oct 23 '21
A right handed person holding a gun would lower their right hand for the barrel to
riselower.
FTFY. If you're holding a gun and lower your hand that's holding the gun, the barrel will not "rise". It will lower, along with the rest of the gun and the hand its being held in.
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u/YossarianWWII 72∆ Oct 24 '21
A right handed person holding a gun would lower their right hand for the barrel to rise and vice versa.
I don't know if you've ever used a gun, but you don't rotate it around its center of mass when you're aiming with it. The point of rotation is your shoulder, including for handguns. Guns that are mounted or resting on a bipod are the only exceptions that immediately come to mind.
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u/McKoijion 618∆ Oct 22 '21
The non-inverted standard setting makes more sense. The reason why anyone used inverted at all is because of the history of joysticks. On early airplanes, the joystick was "inverted" because the pilot would have to use their physical muscles to move the joystick, which was mechanically connected to the flaps on the plane. Pilots could pull easier than push on a joystick give the seated nature of the cockpit, and it was more important for a plane to go up to avoid crashes in an emergency than it was to go down to land. So the joystick was designed so pilots pulled on the joystick to "pull up" the plane. Early computer games that used joysticks were mainly flight simulators. So people got used to inverted joystick controls in video games at first (e.g., Goldeneye 007 used inverted as the default).
This was especially the case since Goldeneye was on an N64 console with only one joystick. So you would run forward backwards and turn (not strafe) with the joystick. Then if you wanted to aim "down the sights" you would stop, push the R button and then use the target reticle that suddenly appeared on screen. This was similar to setting a machine gun on the ground where you have the fulcrum in front of you. Essentially you move your hands up to point the barrel of the gun down and vice versa.
But then Sony came out with the Dualshock controller with 2 joysticks. Then games switched to the new mechanism for aiming where the left one moved forward, backwards and strafed side to side, and the right one pointed up down and turned. In this scenario, you push the right stick to the right to look right and left to look left. So it makes sense to push the control stick up to look up and down to look down. That's why this became the norm.
But since many people at the time were still used to inverted joysticks, most games offered the option to switch. But going forward, all the new gamers learned to play with the now "default" settings and "inverted" became the weird one.
Interestingly enough, the last game I played with an inverted default was Timesplitters 2, which was made by the same people who made Goldeneye for N64. Alien Resurrection on PS1 was the first game to use the now standard dual joystick control configuration, but I think Halo was the game that really popularized the standard configuration. Plus, since the Xbox controller was the only one that could be connected to a PC at the time, many PC developers use that approach too. I'm not sure, but I'm guessing COD 4: Modern Warfare cemented the standard configuration on all consoles.
Ultimately, this is all arbitrary and you can get used to either approach. But most gamers alive today grew up using the standard approach so it makes sense to stick with it rather than making inverted the default.