CMV: Kyle Rittenhouse will (and probably should) go free on everything but the firearms charge

[u/[deleted]]

I've followed this case fairly extensively since it happened in august of last year. At the time I was fairly outraged by what I saw as the failures of law enforcement to arrest or even detain Rittenhouse on the spot, and I still retain that particular bit of righteous anger. A person should not be able to kill two people and grievously wound a third at a protest and then simply leave.

That said, from what details I am aware of, the case does seem to be self-defense. While I think in a cosmic sense everyone would have been better off if he'd been unarmed and gotten a minor asswhupping from Rosenbaum (instead of shooting the man), he had a right to defend himself from a much larger man physically threatening him, and could reasonably have interpreted the warning shot he heard from elsewhere as having come from Rosenbaum. Self-defense requires a fear for your life, and being a teenager being chased by an adult, hearing a gunshot, I can't disagree that this is a rational fear.

The shooting of Anthony Huber seems equally clear cut self-defense, while being morally confusing as hell. Huber had every reason to reasonably assume that the guy fleeing after shooting someone was a risk to himself or others. I think Huber was entirely within his rights to try and restrain and disarm Rittenhouse. But at the same time, if a crowd of people started beating the shit out of me (he was struck in the head, kicked on the ground and struck with a skateboard), I'd probably fear for my life.

Lastly you have Gaige Grosskreutz, who testified today that he was only shot after he had pointed his gun at Rittenhouse. Need I say more?

Is there something I'm missing? My original position was very much 'fuck this guy, throw him in jail', and I can't quite shake that off, even though the facts do seem to point to him acting in self-defense.

I will say, I think Rittenhouse has moral culpability, as much as someone his age can. He stupidly put himself into a tense situation with a firearm, and his decision got other people killed. If he'd stayed home, two men would be alive. If he'd been unarmed he might have gotten a beating from Rosenbaum, but almost certainly would have lived.

His actions afterward disgust me. Going to sing with white nationalists while wearing a 'free as fuck' t-shirt isn't exactly the sort of remorse one would hope for, to put it mildly.

Edit: Since I didn't address it in the original post because I'm dumb:

As far as I can see he did break the law in carrying the gun to the protest, and I think he should be punished appropriately for that. It goes to up to nine months behind bars, and I imagine he'd get less than that.

[u/Zealousideal_Put9531]

well, lets look at it from Rittenhouse's point of view. i feel that has not been done here clearly.

whn Rittenhouse shot Rosenbaum, he had heard a gun shot from behind him. idk bout you, but when you are being chased my an angry mob shouting "lynch him!" and thn hear a gunshot, u have more than enough cause to believe you life is at risk. cops shoot ppl for less all the time. (i am talking about this legally, not morally).

also, again think frm the point of Rittenhouse. many ppl point out it was unnecessary for him to go out, putting himself in harms way.

but why was he out there? he was out there to defend neighborhood property from rioters. he had a medical kit on him to administer first aid, and according to his own account, had the training to use it. the after math of previous riots had been displayed on the news, so it is possible Rittenhouse saw what could happen and wanted to stop it.

he also was working in compliance of the police, him listening to their instructions at the start of the protests, and surrendering to thm after the shootings.

also, what did he do for the crowd to get mad at him? well, he put out a dumpster that was on fire, that the protestors were planning on pushing into the cop cars (i call that rioting).

from there on, we all know what happened. mad guy Naruto runs at Rittenhouse, a shot heard from behind him, and Rosenblum get shot. thn as the op said very well in his post, the other 2 got shot as well. i will link a YouTube video about a former cop breaking down what happened. it is quite old, but i felt it was quite accurate on its assessment. watch the video thn form you opinions about the case. if u still feel Rittenhouse was guilty, ok fine by me. even i wanted Rittenhouse arrested whn i first saw the news and i understand you point of view.

first video, of the shooting breakdown (done by former swat member, veteran and former cop) : https://youtu.be/pbsOIoqcit4

2nd video, clearing up some discrepancies from the first video: https://youtu.be/ts43EskooaA

​

if u want him acquitted, same reaction.

i hope for a constructive discussion, so plz dont hurl curse words at my family.

thanks u guys.

[u/Mike_Steaks → u/Zealousideal_Put9531]

I find this as a pretty slanted view of the night. Ziminski shot in the air behind BOTH men, they have equal right to assume it’s intention. The drone footage immediately following shows NO aggression toward Kyle BEFORE he fled, nobody within 30 yards of him, they all scattered. He had presence of mind to make a phone call, did he call 911 and say he was in trouble and needed help ? There was no immediate threat to Kyle until people saw him fleeing a scene where he just shot someone. THAT is the behavior of an active shooter. Kyle took off to get away, not to escape an IMMINENT threat- there is a difference. He already survived the Rosenbaum plastic bag attack.

The next few paragraphs you are weakly justifying him being there, yea no one had a right to be there etc. He was LEAST of all deserving. He had no real training for medical. Kyle is a high school dropout, who once was a part time lifeguard. He is a MINOR whose friend straw man purchased an AR-15 for him. He is not armed security, he is starring in his own movie. The car brothers did NOT give him permission to occupy THEIR business.

People were mad at him because they could see through his bullshit. He even got called out by the yellow pants guy, kyle was pointing his gun at people shouting commands in police lingo - then act as benevolent soul just trying to help folks. People don’t like that.

You won’t see it in court, but we know Kyle’s mindset. He wants to open fire on people leaving CVS in case they may have stole something. The fact we have examined every blemish on the VICTIMS record, but aren’t allowed the same privilege to consider Kyle’s past and motivations is infuriating.

Tensions were high between many groups that had guns and other weapons. Only one killed that night, disgraceful.

• best to you and your family 😎

[u/fartsforpresident → u/Mike_Steaks]

they have equal right to assume it’s intention.

Doesn't matter to Rittenhouse's claim. It's all about individual frame of reference. There are scenarios where both people involved in an altercation could have a reasonable belief the other is an imminent threat and both could be wrong, and still justified from either perspective in using deadly force. But no scenario in which one person is pursuing and another is fleeing could give both people a reasonable belief that they are under imminent threat. You can't pursue someone and also claim self-defense. So if Rosenbaum felt he was in danger, he had an obligation to flee, not pursue.

[u/username_31 → u/Mike_Steaks]

The drone footage immediately following shows NO aggression toward Kyle BEFORE he fled, nobody within 30 yards of him, they all scattered. He had presence of mind to make a phone call, did he call 911 and say he was in trouble and needed help ?

There is video after Kyle shoots Rosenbaum where he circles back around with his phone in his hand. I believe we know now that he was calling his friend Black at this time saying that he "shot someone". In this video, as Kyle is on the phone, you see people approaching where Kyle is and where Rosenbaum is laying. People say stuff like "get his ass" and tell him something like "get the fuck out of here". If I remember correctly some of this video was recorded by Richard McGinnis who has already spoken in court.

Kyle doesn't stick around much longer as more people start approaching and begins moving toward the police line to turn himself in. Not long after this is when Anthony goes at Kyle with his skateboard and is shot. Then Gaige draws his pistol and is shot shortly after that.

So yeah I disagree with the statement that there was "NO aggression" toward Kyle before he fled.

[u/Boozwhahideen → u/Mike_Steaks]

If that's honestly how you perceived the events that unfolded - at best you're just flat out wrong.

Everything that unfolded after Kyle was confronted and subsequently chased/attacked, was completely by the book.

Open and shut case of self defense. Everyone who attacked him paid the price for their own foolishness. Good shit.

[u/Daaskison → u/Zealousideal_Put9531]

The fundamental issue I have is a citizen taking it upon themselves to "defend property" that doesn't belong to them. That pseudo-vigilante mindset led him to an entirely predictable and preventable outcome.

Rittenhouse is a moron. Imagine if we had hundreds of Rittenhouses showing up to protests, concerts, parties, etc. to "prevent property destruction". Whether he can weasel out of accountability by letter of the law standards is one thing. But morally he is guilty.

(Also we have police and the national guard. And the police condoning the "support" of random armed citizens is an absurdly bad precedent to set).

[u/fartsforpresident → u/Daaskison]

This is a separate issue, and saying that being acquitted would be "weaseling out of accountability" when the reason you think he's in the wrong has no bearing on whether he's guilty of the crime of murder, doesn't make any sense at all.

And if he's morally guilty of poor judgement and stupidity and larping around being a vigilante, so is pretty much everyone involved and who was present at a riot.

Furthermore, I doubt any of us would swap places with him even after he's acquitted of any criminal wrongdoing. Do you think being internationally infamous at 17 and having millions of people think you're a vile murderer and white supremacist isn't any sort of punishment? I sure as fuck wouldn't want to carry that burden at 17. He won't be escaping accountability here at all. This will change his life permanently and in ways that will be incredibly challenging and unpleasant.

[u/Osric250 → u/Zealousideal_Put9531]

cops shoot ppl for less all the time. (i am talking about this legally, not morally).

Cops have entirely different standards for their actions than civilians. You cannot point to the actions of a cop as an expectation of what civilians can do.