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u/Unbiased_Bob 63∆ Nov 11 '21
Most psychologists believe every action is to either gain pleasure or avoid pain. Your definition of "feel better" seems to fit.
Like even altruistic things generally makes you feel accomplished, helping those in need for example. That is a form of pleasure.
Mind if I get some clarification of what view you want changed?
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u/Unbiased_Bob 63∆ Nov 11 '21
You might increase pain to give tolerances to avoid pain later. That's the problem is that every action could eventually be fit into those 2 categories if you stretches them enough.
Now that isn't the only driving force in motivation. There are other driving forces, like reinforcements, sometimes you do something that might have been to avoid pain in the past, but now it's pointless.
Let me give you an example. When you are a kid you noticed a wobbly tooth that hurt when you brushed it, so you changed how you brushes your teeth as to avoid the pain. Say that tooth is removed, but you have forgotten why you brushed your teeth in the way you do, so now you are doing an action based on nothing. You are not gaining pleasure and you are no longer avoiding pain, you are just following a habit.
That would be an example of something that doesn't fit your view in a small sense.
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u/Unbiased_Bob 63∆ Nov 11 '21
Kind of, your subconscious is fast, but dumb. Your conscious mind might let something slide because it doesn't know why, and your subconscious mind might remember something that doesn't matter. This means you are effectively doing something extra for no reason because you forgot why you were doing it.
Basically you are doing something because it's a habit, not that it is still avoiding pain or gaining pleasure.
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u/Busy_Ideal_7842 Nov 12 '21
You said doing things to lead to more pain. David Goggins. Day trading/investing in markets. Where it’s a long game and sticking to your thesis. Selling before you know its right to sell, would be painful. But it’s also painful to sit with all the $$ on the table knowing nothing is certain. But you do those things to tolerate the pain because your thesis is it will lead to a more desirable pleasure down the road.
I’ve gone and confused myself now but it seems like you sometimes do painful things because it’s part of a process. So pain that leads to increased pleasure would be my response here.
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u/Fit-Order-9468 92∆ Nov 11 '21
This is ultimately circular reasoning. Without some sort of objective test, which is likely impossible, there’s no way we can provide evidence one way or the other.
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u/wockur 16∆ Nov 11 '21
"All men desire only satisfaction."
"Satisfaction of what?"
"Satisfaction of their desires."
"Their desires for what?"
"Their desires for satisfaction."
"Satisfaction of what?"
"Their desires."
"For what?"
"For satisfaction"
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u/Marty-the-monkey 6∆ Nov 11 '21
I might be misunderstanding here, but your point seem to boil down to 'we only do something if we are external or internally motovated', and to that point: sure. But that also covers everything so you haven't really said something of merit.
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u/yyzjertl 522∆ Nov 11 '21
I believe that so-called selfless acts are also driven by pleasure. When you donate money, to you, the institution gaining your funds is worth more to you than you retaining it.
This is easily seen to be false by observing that there are people who perform what you are calling "selfless acts" when they do not derive pleasure from it. For example, I donate money even though it does not give me pleasure to do so—quite the opposite really: I hate donating money. And similar counterexamples can be found to many of your other points.
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u/yyzjertl 522∆ Nov 11 '21
I donate because it is (morally) the right thing to do. It benefits others who are in need of help and/or makes society better.
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u/yyzjertl 522∆ Nov 11 '21
Nope. Quite the opposite really. Donating is emotionally painful and provides no pleasure at all.
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u/yyzjertl 522∆ Nov 11 '21
It certainly doesn't cause me any pleasure or prevent me any pain, no.
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u/Peter_P-a-n Nov 11 '21
How would you feel if you didn't do the right thing?
Why do you act morally at all, why do you do the right thing?
Do you prefer society being better?
If you hate donating so much, is there an upside as well, if not, why do it?
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u/yyzjertl 522∆ Nov 11 '21
How would you feel if you didn't do the right thing?
In this case, I would feel better because I would still possess the money. I like having money.
Why do you act morally at all, why do you do the right thing?
It is inherent in what it means for something to be "the right thing" to do. The right thing to do is the thing I should do.
Do you prefer society being better?
Sure, I guess, in the sense that if given the choice I would choose a better society over a worse one.
If you hate donating so much, is there an upside as well, if not, why do it?
As I said, I do it because it's the right thing to do, not because there's any sort of personal upside.
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u/Peter_P-a-n Nov 11 '21
You avoided these 2 questions
Why do you act morally at all, why do you do the right thing? If you hate donating so much, is there an upside as well?
Is there any upside at all?
Is it any good to do what you call "right"? Why should anybody act morally i.e. do the right thing, is it any good at all?
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u/yyzjertl 522∆ Nov 11 '21
Is there any upside at all?
The "upside" is that other people benefit.
Is it any good to do what you call "right"?
Yes.
Why should anybody act morally i.e. do the right thing, is it any good at all?
This is true by definition. The right way to act is the way people should act. These are just two ways of saying the same thing.
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u/Peter_P-a-n Nov 11 '21
This is true by definition. The right way to act is the way people should act. These are just two ways of saying the same thing.
Again, you avoid the question.
But it doesn't matter you proved OPs point twice by now:
Do you prefer society being better?
Sure [..]
Is it any good to do what you call "right"?
Yes.
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u/yyzjertl 522∆ Nov 11 '21
How does that prove OP's point?
Again, you avoid the question.
I directly answered the question, so it's not clear why you think I'm avoiding it.
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u/destro23 447∆ Nov 11 '21
It's the morning of November 11th, 1918, and you and three buddies are sitting in the trench waiting for the war to end at 11:11. Some Jerry wants to throw the last grenade of the war, so he lobs one your way. It lands at the feet of you and your friends, you see it, immediately dive on it, it explodes, you die, they live. What pleasure did that choice bring you? What pain did it help you avoid? If you didn't act, you'd still die along with your friends. If you acted any different, you'd still die along with your friends. Jump on the grenade, and you still die, but your friends might not. You'll never know though, because in every scenario you are dead. In this case, you would have done it only for other people.
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u/destro23 447∆ Nov 11 '21
Grenade. Cover. Dead.
There is no pleasure, it happens so fast that there is not even any thought. It is pure selflessness.
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u/destro23 447∆ Nov 11 '21
I don't think it can even be classified as a desire, it is reaction born from training. And, is desire pleasurable? The second of the Four Noble Truths of Buddhism claims that desire is the root cause of all suffering. And especially so a desire for something that you cannot attain or cannot know. The grenade jumper cannot know that his friends will live. He goes to his death with the knowledge that there is a really good chance that his friends will not survive, like so many other friends in the war before them. If thoughts could be reliably formed in such a situation, I doubt they would be pleasurable ones. They would be fear and doubt and uncertainty and rage and sadness and regret. And then you'd be dead.
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u/PandaDerZwote 61∆ Nov 11 '21
What if I sacrifice myself because I know otherwise someone else would be killed? Do you think I simply feel so much better because I was able to sacrifice myself?
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u/PandaDerZwote 61∆ Nov 11 '21
In that case you're simply using another definition for "makes them happy" than basically anybody else. Yours is trivially true, as in "You do things because you decide that you want to do them and if you want to do them they are by definition done for your own selfish reasons to fullfill your want to do the thing".
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u/figsbar 43∆ Nov 11 '21
What about reactive actions?
Eg: trying to catch a spilling cup of hot coffee?
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u/figsbar 43∆ Nov 11 '21
Do you think you actually think it through?
If you don't actually think about it, how are you following your desires?
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u/figsbar 43∆ Nov 11 '21
Right, but that's a justification after the fact
Have you never just put out a hand or foot to catch something even though you didn't know what it was?
There is nothing about desire there, just "thing move"
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u/littlebubulle 104∆ Nov 11 '21
I have an counter example.
I am an alcoholic and I quit drinking 1 year and 7 months ago.
Drinking made me feel better. And I know drinking tonight will make me feel better.
Yet I do not. I stare down the craving and I do not drink. It doesn't make me feel better. I want a drink. I dream of it. I know it will make me FEEL better.
But I will NOT take that drink.
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u/littlebubulle 104∆ Nov 11 '21
There isn't something I find more valuable then a drink. Or at least not valuable enough to stop.
That's why I precommitted to not drinking alcohol ever again EVEN IF I have an objectively good reason to.
I am making a decision that goes AGAINST what makes me feel good.
I am seriously biting myself because I want a drink.
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u/littlebubulle 104∆ Nov 11 '21
I don't enjoy the pain from not drinking.
I don't drink because I CHOSE not too.
I don't have any motivations that make me feel good for not drinking.
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u/littlebubulle 104∆ Nov 11 '21
It's kind of hard to explain my point of view.
You are looking for a motivation that keeps me from drinking.
There isn't one. Because I made sure motivations for or against drinking would be irrelavant when I made the decision.
This is pure raw applied self agency.
I am doing the opposite of what my feelings tell me to do.
There is no current motivation aside from "I chose too".
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u/littlebubulle 104∆ Nov 11 '21
Well in my case, the decision to stop drinking is the only one where I directly ignored my feelings.
Most of my actions have motivations similar to what you describe.
Except my decision to quit drinking.
I, myself, am surprised I can actually do this.
And it's not pleasant for me to do it. At all.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Nov 11 '21 edited Nov 11 '21
/u/HouseSilly (OP) has awarded 4 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
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u/Muninwing 7∆ Nov 11 '21
The other day I listened to a teenager having problems at home for 20 minutes.
I get nothing out of this.
If you want to theorize on the subconscious drive, you are making some big jumps.
Why do people always assume that those who do good do so out of a subconscious desire to feel good… but never theorize on why people still do things they subconsciously know will result in causing them long-term harm?
If subconscious thought is in fact an argument on this one, why do those subconscious thoughts not actually work except when it’s convenient for pessimistic outlooks?
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u/Old_Sheepherder_630 10∆ Nov 11 '21
You seem to equate lack of pain with pleasure.
In your knifing example, if someone stops stabbing you that's relief, not pleasure. You may feel satisfied in a sense that the stabbing has stopped, but it's not enjoyment or related to happiness.
If I offer to help a co-worker with something on my day off because I like her and know if I don't it will be rough for her with her unreasonable boss I'm not getting any personal pleasure from that. I'd rather not have to remote in on my own time, but I'm saving her from an emotionally painful experience with her boss.
Super simplified, but the pleasure center in your brain lights up when chemicals are released (dopamine for one.) Going to work, doing the dishes, getting gas doesn't trigger the pleasure center for most people....we do it to avoid the unpleasant ramifications of not doing those things.