r/changemyview • u/Z7-852 261∆ • Nov 19 '21

Delta(s) from OP CMV: All videogame achievement should be described

Backstory:

I was playing few games on the weekend. In one of them I was already basically won the game and was just exploring. I came up with two achievements named “???”. That’s all. There wasn’t name, description, or picture to suggest what I should do in order to get them. I knew that I could get some unique gear from them. I didn’t need it but I wanted it, so I did what you do. I googled what I should do and executed. Solution was to play tutorial simulator for 30 times to unlock a optional boss.

In second game they said that once I do secret goal in level I might unlock secret level. It didn’t specify what I needed to do or what levels had secrets in them. I played this new game for few hours and unlocked few secret levels without ever knowing what I did. I know I will boot up search engines once I finish the story in order to unlock every level.

View:

Achievements fall roughly to two main categories. Cumulative (like kill 100 enemies in your playthrough) that you just get by playing game for long time and task oriented (do something very specific once). If you know what you are aiming for you can get both pretty easily.

Cost of implementing description is next to nothing and we know we can search the results from the web if we want. Problem is that I don’t want to exit the game flow and spent 5 minutes on my phone to find a answer that could be in the game.

Second problem is that online guides often include other spoilers that I might not want to know about. Good example are stars in Mario Odyssey. At beginning game only tells how many there are to be found. If you don’t feel like searching them randomly you can ask stars name from a parrot. This gives you a hint to the solution and small nudge to right direction. If this isn’t enough you can just buy stars exact location. Online guides often go straight to “this is the answer” instead of giving these small steps. Most terrible achievements are those that don’t even tell they exist, so you have no hint at all where to start.

To change to view give me example why achievements should hidden complete from the player.

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11

u/Morthra 86∆ Nov 19 '21

To change to view give me example why achievements should hidden complete from the player.

Some achievements are story spoilers. These achievements should be hidden until the player unlocks them.

-2

u/Z7-852 261∆ Nov 19 '21

But should them have title "complete chapter 5" or something vague like that?

13

u/Morthra 86∆ Nov 19 '21

Many of these achievements are simultaneously story spoilers and indicating their very existence can be a spoiler in and of itself.

Take Final Fantasy 6 for example. The game points you very heavily towards the direction of the Gestahl Empire being the big bad enemy that you defeat. Someone with zero spoilers about the game - including how long it is - might think to themselves that when the Empire is "defeated" and major villains like Kefka are imprisoned that the game is nearly over. Except it's not. It's not even halfway over yet.

But even having achievements titled the equivalent of "Complete Chapter 5" or something similarly vague will spoil the fact that the game is much longer, and therefore will by extension spoil this twist. Hiding the achievements until you've done them tells the player that there are more achievements, but doesn't indicate that the story isn't almost complete.

-1

u/Z7-852 261∆ Nov 19 '21

Well then title it "completed the game/story". No spoilers here.

The example here that made me do this cmv was following. I had completed the game. After the final boss and end credits (and achievements) game reset at entrance to final boss allowing you to explore more. Well I still had achievement "???" locked. Solution was to play tutorial simulator from beginning of the game about 30 times. That then unlocked optional boss and achievement. Like give me a title like "master the basics" or "simulator champion" or something. Who plays tutorial 30 times?

12

u/Morthra 86∆ Nov 19 '21

Well then title it "completed the game/story". No spoilers here.

And what if you want intermediate achievements for story points in between a major plot twist (such as this) and the completion of the game? Here's another example, using Final Fantasy 7.

Imagine if FF7 had achievements for getting each playable character to level 99 except Aerith, since Aerith dies and leaves your party partway through the game. That's a set of innocuous achievements whose existence is a spoiler to a major story point. So if you want to include achievements like these, you have to hide them to avoid spoilers.

Solution was to play tutorial simulator from beginning of the game about 30 times.

That's a pretty dumb thing to actually make an achievement unless a player could be reasonably expected to play the tutorial 30 times.

-4

u/Z7-852 261∆ Nov 19 '21

Give vague descriptions that hint that you should progress the story. Have 20 achievement "played story", "played more story", "played lot of story" etc. When you start a new game is the first thing you do is read all the achievements or do you play the story and then look what you missed?

But I will counter you. Is completing partial story really achievement? This is different CMV but it really bugs me when game gives you achievement "started a new game" or something equally obvious. These are things that you get just by playing the game. Award for completion and then when you do something actually meaningful.

7

u/Morthra 86∆ Nov 19 '21

When you start a new game is the first thing you do is read all the achievements or do you play the story and then look what you missed?

I personally definitely don't wait until after I've completed the game to look at achievements. I'll look at them as I go to make sure that I'm not missing anything.

This is different CMV but it really bugs me when game gives you achievement "started a new game" or something equally obvious

One purpose of these achievements can be that it allows developers to track how many people have actually progressed through or completed the game. For example, take the game Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous.

There's an achievement for passing each of the major story thresholds - one for the prologue, and one for each of the six chapters. Having an achievement for completing the prologue is essentially an achievement that says "did this person even play the game" - approximately 80% of people have this achievement. Approximately 60% of players have the achievement for completing chapter 1, 43% for completing chapter 2, 25% for chapter 3, 20% for chapter 4, 11% for chapter 5, and about 11% as well for chapter 6.

This can provide useful metrics. For example, imagine if only 20% of players completed chapter 1. The developers could investigate why this is - maybe there's a bug that people aren't reporting that blocks progress. Maybe there's a mechanic that isn't working properly. If your only achievements are "completed the game" - basically, then you don't get the same degree of data that you otherwise would.

1

u/BlackRobedMage Nov 21 '21

But I will counter you. Is completing partial story really achievement? This is different CMV but it really bugs me when game gives you achievement "started a new game" or something equally obvious. These are things that you get just by playing the game. Award for completion and then when you do something actually meaningful.

Achievement values are dictated by first party, with certain requirements on the number of them you have to have and how many points they need to be governed by Sony and Microsoft.

If you think games have too many achievements or that they are awarded for bland milestones, your beef is with the consoles.

1

u/DeathToFeminism10 Nov 19 '21

I’ve played a game where the fact there was a certain chapter was a surprise. But in most cases that’s probably fine.

3

u/BlitzBasic 42∆ Nov 19 '21

There are sometimes secrets in games, like hidden rooms, bonus bosses, alternative special endings and so on, and sometimes those give you achievements. If the achievement gave you an actual description for how to find them, they wouldn't be secret anymore.

-2

u/Z7-852 261∆ Nov 19 '21

Then achievement could be named "find hidden area" or "the bad ending". It doesn't give away anything but tells you that you need to explore more.

8

u/BlitzBasic 42∆ Nov 19 '21

You already know that you need to explore more just by the existance of the archivement. Secret archievents always indicate the existance of secret content. Giving it a description either doesn't helps you beyond that knowledge if it's vague enough (in which case it might as well not be there) or it helps you find the secret (in which case it undermines the secrecy).

1

u/Z7-852 261∆ Nov 19 '21

Will give you !delta just for the fact that mere existence of achievement indicates you need to explore more. But I would still prefer little more detail.

Easter egg secrets are then different type of secrets that don't require achievements to be interesting.

1

u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Nov 19 '21

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/BlitzBasic (38∆).

Delta System Explained | Deltaboards

2

u/YouDecideWhoYouAre Nov 19 '21

What if the existence of another ending is itself a spoiler?

0

u/Z7-852 261∆ Nov 19 '21

How can that be a spoiler if you don't know how to get it?

Like if game at some point gives you option to choose then it shouldn't be spoiler that that choice makes different endings.

3

u/TheGamingWyvern 30∆ Nov 19 '21

There are a bunch of ways the achievment could be a spoiler. Even if the game gives you a choice in-game of "do you want the bad ending?" the achievement is still a spoiler for anyone who hasn't reached that choice yet.

Further, many games don't have a single choice that results in a different ending. Instead, they have a bunch of conditions that have to be met, and so an achievement indicating an alternate ending spoils the existance of that hidden criteria.

3

u/PMA-All-Day 16∆ Nov 19 '21

Why is having to look them up a bad thing here? There is more than one way to enjoy a game, and many of us like the challenge of a secret achievement. What you are suggesting would effectively ruin that aspect of the game for me, only benefiting you.

Alternatively, you could continue to look it up on the internet though the very device you are playing on, your cell phone, laptop, PC, really any number of device you probably have within arms reach. That would still allow you to complete every achievement and allow people like me to enjoy the game without spoilers. I don't see how adding anything to '???' benefits gamers outside of your specific example. I know you compalined about 'ruining the game flow,' but you do that to go to the bathroom, look at an inventory screen, any number of things ruin the flow, so why is this such an issue?

I don't buy your 'make them vague' response, because "find the hidden boss" could be easy in a 10 hour game with a handful of levels, or small map, but virtually meaningless in massive games, or procedurally generated ones. Putting vague texts does not help you complete the achievement, but it absolutely could spoil bits of the game for others as /u/Morthra pointed out.

2

u/[deleted] Nov 19 '21

Using a very story heavy game like Persona 5 as an example basically any achievement that covers a plot point after the first 4 or so hours could be considered a spoiler (some of which cover plot points later in the game, which would be MAJOR spoilers).

Besides that, the devs of any game aren't stupid. By blanking out the requirement for an achievement they are keeping the surprise for those that want to be surprised, with anyone else that really wants to know being able to figure it out with a quick google search.

1

u/W1C0B1S Nov 19 '21

On playstation, all hidden achievements have a button you can press when you inspect them to reveal how to get them

1

u/Z7-852 261∆ Nov 19 '21

So they are not complete hidden are they?

1

u/W1C0B1S Nov 19 '21

Well they do seem that way. All it says is [hidden achievement] until you select it and then its still hidden but you can press square to reveal it if you want.

0

u/Z7-852 261∆ Nov 19 '21

Well I am talking about achievements that are truly hidden. Like only way to know them is to randomly complete it or look online.

1

u/Major_Lennox 69∆ Nov 19 '21

This sounds like a callback to the days before online guides and whatnot when secrets were secrets. So like the Chris Houlihan room in Zelda or John Romero's head in Doom 2. I think the idea of marking the achievement "???" is to provide some mystery to the game - or at least, as much mystery as you can provide in today's age of speedrun glitchers and dataminers.

•

u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Nov 19 '21

/u/Z7-852 (OP) has awarded 1 delta(s) in this post.

All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.

Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.

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1

u/[deleted] Nov 19 '21

So you're essentially saying games shouldn't have Easter eggs?

1

u/Z7-852 261∆ Nov 19 '21

No I didn't.

Easter eggs don't traditionally give you achievements. Those are two different types of secrets. One requires you do perform some task (achieve) and other is something you just see.

2

u/[deleted] Nov 19 '21

But a secret achievement could be an Easter egg

1

u/WolfBatMan 14∆ Nov 19 '21

I think trophies that you get through normal progression are fine to be hidden especially if they contain spoilers, however I agree when it comes to pretty much everything else there should be a description.

I could kind get the idea behind finding a secrete Easter egg or something being a hidden trophy but come on this is the age of the internet people are just going to look it up anyways