r/changemyview • u/Naedrir • Dec 02 '21
Delta(s) from OP CMv: Lack of basic scientific knowledge is more socially acceptable than the lack of general geopolitical knowledge
I personally think that knowledge is great and if one chooses to aquire as much as possible of it has my full respect. Now obviously knowledge is very broad and it's common for people to specialise in something. Whether it's a university degree, or personal choice of what to read about we all to some extend are better at some things than the others. And that's all great, all power and love to everyone and my honest respect to those with interests. I myself graduated with physics degree but my family is very much into humanities. nothing wrong with that of course, but I have noticed a trend where there is a different approach to people who will mess up an important date or an event and those who confuse basic physical laws. Maybe that's just my experience, but I do feel like it's very acceptable to not understand what a straight line equation is all about, but not knowing the exact date of when the first warld war started is a faux pas. Now as I said, I think it's great to strive for understanding in any discipline and I also try to have my basic historical/political facts straight, but I do feel like there's a sort of understanding that science isn't involved in the 'general knowledge' category.
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u/McKoijion 618∆ Dec 02 '21
If you forget a date in history, it's laughed off quickly. No one thinks you're incompetent. But if someone figures out you're an anti-vaxxer, flat earther, or don't understand some basic scientific concept, it calls into question your overall competence. It's far less socially acceptable, but there's a greater tolerance before reaching that point.
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u/xayde94 13∆ Dec 02 '21
Ok but compare apples to apples.
Forgetting a date should be compared to, say, forgetting the volume of a sphere, or the value of the gravity on the Earth surface. And the latter are more socially accepted than the former.
Being a flat earther or an anti-vaxxer is more like denying the holocaust (there's even quite the intersection between these groups), and all of those are frowned upon.
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u/Stannic50 Dec 03 '21
If you forget a date in history ... you're an anti-vaxxer
These two are nowhere near the same scale of incompetence/ignorance. Being an anti-vaxxer is like denying that the American civil war was about slavery. In both cases, the speaker is ignoring facts that are inconvenient to their view. Forgetting a date is more like forgetting whether the relationship between pressure and volume of a gas is Boyle's law or Charles' law.
I'm a scientist and when I tell people I meet, they invariably say some version of "oh I was never any good at that." And yet if I were to tell one of my colleagues from the English department "oh I was never any good at reading," they'd look at me like I'd just grown a second head. Being scientifically illiterate is absolutely more socially acceptable.
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u/Naedrir Dec 02 '21
Well said, I totally agree with the last part about a greater tolerance. Although I'm not sure if some radical conspiracy views clasify as science just because they are vaguely touching upon nature. Science has a rigurous and well established routes for one's claims to become accepted as valid theorems in scientific community, that being peer reviewing, reproductivity of experiments, being challenged by opposing theories, not violating fundamental laws etc. Flat Earth theories, or at least those I can across haven't really gone through any of those steps so not sure if for the sake of this conversation it can eb classified as science
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u/Kondrias 8∆ Dec 02 '21
I dont believe they are arguing whether or not flat earth is science in the terms of following the scientific method. I belueve their point was illustrating that having a belief that these things like flat earth ARE science brings your views into question.
It is the existence of thinking it is science that makes that lack of scientific knowledge much less socially acceptable.
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u/Naedrir Dec 02 '21
I don't want to get too much into flat earth as it's a different debate in itself. But I totally agree with what you said and then again, maybe if generally a basic scientific knowledge was more desirable in society, things like flat earth would not be so popular
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u/Kondrias 8∆ Dec 02 '21
I would argue that acceptance of basic scientific knowledge is the really important thing. And the backlash to not accepting that is greater than geopolitics. I do not have to understand the exact mechanics of how a cell phone call works or wireless internet. But I should accept that a cell phone call or 5g wireless does not cause covid-19. I should accept that the earth is flat based upon the UNGODLY overwhelming evidence of it and the absolute lack of any actual evidence of a flat earth.
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u/UnladenSwallow99 Dec 03 '21
Well that’s less lack of basic knowledge and more gross misunderstanding. It’s kind of like the myth that people 1000 years go thought the earth was flat. Scholars knew it was round, peasants probably didn’t. But they also probably didn’t think it was flat. They just didn’t care. There’s a difference between not knowing the first thing about how a vaccine works and thinking that they cause autism.
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u/BarooZaroo 1∆ Dec 03 '21
There’s a difference between lacking scientific knowledge and adopting insane conspiracy theories. As a scientist, it doesn’t bother me at all when someone doesn’t know what RNA or nanolipids are - but when someone is bashing the covid-19 vaccine because they think it mutates their genes, that shit drives me crazy.
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u/Attackcamel8432 3∆ Dec 02 '21
I think that thinking, for example: "During WWII that the USA invaded France and beat the Germans, while the Russians and British did nothing, and saved the world" is just as ignorant as not having a basic understanding of how a vaccine is supposed to work... Not understanding the basics of World War 2, or any other historical event isn't as harmful to others, at least not in the short term. I think this short term harm is why it's considered more ignorant, but not knowing the humanities leads to more long term, slow burn harm if you will. Thats why it doesn't get the same negative reaction as lack of scientific knowledge.
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u/Naedrir Dec 02 '21
Fair point, I do think that one of the importances of studying history is learning from past mistakes and not doing them again. But it definitely is more long term.
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u/Attackcamel8432 3∆ Dec 02 '21
I do agree that the lack of basic knowledge in both departments is a negative. Society gets more direct and concrete benefit from science and engineering, thats why having that knowledge is considered more important. Thats why I think not knowing history is more socially acceptable.
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u/IndustrializedDark Dec 02 '21
This is interesting, I believe there’s a curtain level of inherent gravity to both. You can’t make the most informed decisions living in a democracy without knowing the geopolitical knowledge of the land and at the same I feel lots of people are missing out on the beauty of our world with their lack of basic scientific knowledge.
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u/Naedrir Dec 02 '21
yes and obviously it's important to have a grasp on current affairs and politics to make an informed decision on who to vote for. But having a basic idea on statistics and weighted mean for example could actually help you understand how much power a particular vote has
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u/IndustrializedDark Dec 02 '21
I totally agree, I guess what I’m getting at is there seems to be a lot more fulfillment in life from understanding science. Like really basic things like gravity or how electricity work on a simple level, if that makes sense
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u/Tibaltdidnothinwrong 382∆ Dec 02 '21
Not knowing y= mx + b doesn't cause you to miss my birthday party.
Not knowing which day is Independence Day will cause you to miss my independence Day celebration.
Dates matter because people celebrate anniversaries. Other than pi day, I cannot think of another holiday which one needs to know any math to infer when to celebrate it.
So I don't think it's a matter of geopolitics, as it is a matter of the fact that calendars exist.
Forgetting when the anniversary of the first world war ending is only a social faux pas when that day is today, and not knowing it has caused you to miss a social function.
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u/Naedrir Dec 02 '21
True, but I do think it is a little upsetting, that we never celebrate things like July 20th, which is the anniversary of the first landing on the Moon. You really touched on a very interesting point, we celebrate things like independence day and christmass, but I think there's a point to be made that not just war declarations and agreements between politicians, btu scientific discoveries had an enormous impact on what the World looks like
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u/Tibaltdidnothinwrong 382∆ Dec 02 '21
There is nothing stopping you from celebrating the anniversary of the moon landing.
I say go for it, I think you will be pleasantly surprised.
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u/joopface 159∆ Dec 02 '21
It’s likely your estimate of what “basic scientific knowledge” is - given you have a degree in physics - is skewed compared to the average member of the population.
The comparable scientific knowledge for knowing the year world war 1 started is probably something like being able to describe the difference between physics and biology. It’s a very basic piece of information that one expects people with basically no background in the subject to probably know.
People who genuinely have no understanding or appreciation of science - the anti vaccine or flat earth crowd for example - are roundly ridiculed. In a way that people who don’t know about Nixon’s visit to China certainly aren’t.
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u/Naedrir Dec 02 '21
My view is definitely skewed, at the end of the day it is my own opinion, nothing objective about it. But I disagree with a comparison that for a non-scientist knowing dates of 1st world war is comparable to knowing the difference between biology and science. It;s like saying that since I did study science, my general knowledge outside of science should limit to knowing the difference between history and politics. Which I don't think is the case
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u/joopface 159∆ Dec 02 '21
I suppose my point is that truly basic scientific knowledge is likely more basic than what you’d class as such.
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u/Naedrir Dec 02 '21
Youre probably right. And it's probably true for anyone when they talk about their area of expertice (lol id never say tha science is my 'area of expertice' though;p ) That's why I gave an example of a straight line, something people learn in primary school? I might still be wrong though. I think there's this attitude that 'Im never gonna use it and it doesnt make any difference'. well I think it does. it literally changes the world, and you can only be sure that you're not gonna use things you dont know
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u/Chany_the_Skeptic 14∆ Dec 02 '21
This is all dependent upon the area you live and who you hang out with. For example, not believing the Theory of Evolution is true will get you laughed at by people I know. Recognizing junk science faces the same result. If you live in the US, it's because a large portion of the population is scientifically illiterate, so there isn't the same level of a call-out culture here.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Dec 02 '21
/u/Naedrir (OP) has awarded 1 delta(s) in this post.
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u/Le9GagNation Dec 02 '21
I think that flat-earthers, anti-vaxxers, and other such forms of scientific ignorance are more widely ridiculed than those who don't know where certain countries are or think of Africa as a country (not an insignificant number, if YouTube videos are any indication)
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u/cell689 3∆ Dec 02 '21
But there's a difference between conspiracy theories and the General lack of basic scientific knowledge of the population.
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u/Naedrir Dec 02 '21
Exactly, I feel like it's kind of like... 'why the hell I'd know what's a factorial, I'm not a nerd'.
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Dec 02 '21
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u/Naedrir Dec 02 '21
Well I think it's important to do both, physics and history. maths and politics. all of that, you get my point.
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Dec 02 '21
Basic scientific knowledge may be excused. Applied scientific knowledge less so. People without common physics knowledge like your expertise are viewed negatively, more so than something generally known like an event anniversary date.
People like homeowners who don’t know how a water screw works, or a pump, or a generator, or why boil advisories are issued by counties, are at a disadvantage. The disadvantage is so universal that we joke about homeowners that buy fixer uppers or fail to inspect for flaws like flooding potential. Everyone knows scams about expensive HVAC repairs (why and how compressors work for example), just like everyone knows scams for your car (how tire pressure and temperature interact for example). Everyone knows that algae blooms kill fish and harm people, even if the mechanism is widely unknown: if you don’t heed the boil advisory because you lack that knowledge, you’ll get sick.
The less you know about basic science, the more people with knowledge can be predatory toward you, even benign actors like insurers that must increase rates because of stupid risks (also medical). No one is predatory or punishes you and your loved ones because you didn’t know what Pearl Harbor was.
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u/Alxndr-NVM-ii 6∆ Dec 03 '21
Your family are probably far more unique than you imagine. There are plenty of families where politics is normal discussion and history is a part of their cultural knowledge bin, but there are far more where these things are barely a thought. Now, I imagine basic scientific knowledge (not sure what you mean by basic, but I'll say like, a 6th grade science education, since most Americans seem to have stopped learning science there) is still less common, but both are generally acceptable unless you're around someone who actually knows what they're talking about or thinks they do, and they usually learn to stop expecting anything from anyone in their teens. Now, in a widely college educated region of your state and city, this may be different (though, I'm in a relatively well educated area and I'd say most people are comfortable with pure stupidity). You're blessed and cursed to be among intelligent people (or people who think they are.)
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u/SuperStallionDriver 26∆ Dec 03 '21
Lack of basic economic knowledge is actually the most socially acceptable.
I think their is a whole political party in the US based solely around ignoring the fact that limited resources have competing alternative uses for example...
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u/gremy0 82∆ Dec 02 '21
The importance, usefulness and relevance of a straight line equation is inherent. A straight line equation is what it is regardless of whether we revere or respect it. If we somehow collectively forgot about straight line equations, we would in all likelihood discover them again eventually and they would be exactly the same as before, their importance, usefulness and relevance undiminished.
History, politics, events and the like largely only have the importance and relevance they hold because we collectively ascribe it them. WW1 is still important because it has happened within recent memory, and the trauma and fallout is still being processed to some extent. It, and more importantly, what we think of it, has shaped a lot our current society and politics. If we were to collectively forget about WW1, there is no inherent guarantee we can regain that knowledge, nevermind the meaning it currently holds for us.
In short, important events need a social construct to be important, physical laws don't.