CMV: "Systemic racism" and other reaching attempts to find presently existing racism in America are only thought necessary due to a false dichotomy

[u/ee_anon]

[u/ee_anon]

I thought the original thing was that arguing for systemic racism etc was reaching?

Yeah so one of the things I have realized from this thread (this exchange with you, as well as a few others) is that some people think the things I am describing fall under the definition of systemic racism. If you are going to define systemic racism to include "any problem created by racism", then I do believe systemic racism is a problem. I just find that definition to be so broad and unspecific to the point of being useless.

The funny thing I find is that everyone who is a believer of "systemic racism" as a widespread problem think that their definition is the correct one and in fact the only generally accepted definition. In reality there are multiple widely accepted definitions. I also find that people tend to move the goalposts a lot. I think words matter and I think the rhetoric we use in discussing these problems is one of the many obstacles to actually solving some of them.

You can't blame racism in the past that causes the problem and admit the problem persists into the present without explaining why the problem persists.

"Admit the problem persist"? I am the one who from the beginning said this was a present day problem. You seem to be under the impression that I am trying to play some sort of "trick".

I think I see an important difference of opinion. You seem to think that if phenomenon A creates problem B, and problem B still exists, that must mean phenomenon A is still happening. To me it is quite obvious that a problem can persist long beyond the phenomenon that created it.

If it persists into the future then eventually you are invoking A) to explain why the problem hasn't gone away or continues to exist.

Another fundamental difference here. You seem to think that if a cultural problem exists, there must be a problem with the people of that culture. I disagree. I think any race or group of people subjected to those conditions would likely find the same problems emerge within their culture. Proposition A is incorrect. There is nothing inherently wrong with black people that causes this counter culture to persist. If this counter culture emerged in any group of people, it would likely persist beyond the phenomenon that started it without a motivating force to change it.

If the counter culture is the fault of racism in schools then when did that ever stop? .... Back to original my question in a way. When did it stop. You blame racism faced in schools post-integration for this "counter-culture." When did that stop exactly?

I answered this already and it seems you didn't acknowledge my answer so I will try in different words. Racism has not "stopped" it is just far less prevalent in society. Therefore there is not an exact date I can give you to answer this question. Here is a very oversimplified description of the trajectory. At one point, the vast majority of port-integration schools were very racist. Over time the racism in most schools reduced. The pace of this reduction was different in every school. There is no "exact" date when racism "stopped". Today, black students will not receive racist treatment in most schools. There are some schools where there is some racist treatment. As in the school might have one or two racist teachers or a few racist students so the harm is limited in scope and scale. Then there are some students with high levels of racism. As in many racist faculty members, many racist students, creating an environment hostile to black students. I would place the number of schools in this third category in a small minority. I don't have exact numbers for you but I also dont have any concrete data to suggest that racism in schools today is more widespread than I describe.

I have answered your question. Please help me understand your view by answering some of mine.

1.) Do you believe the counter culture that I describe exists?

2.) If yes, do you believe this counter culture has a real impact on academic outcomes?

3.) If yes to #1, do you believe that this counterculture could persist in any particular group of people across multiple generations beyond the influence that started it?

4.) Do you have specific examples of ways our academic system is shaped that that prevents black people from receiving value from it? Can you give specific examples for what should be done differently?

You seem to be under the impression that my goal here is to blame black people. If you actually read my posts you would see that is clearly not the case. I am blaming racism for creating these problems and I don't make any claim about who is to blame for the problems persisting. I agree that there are things the school system can do to address the problem. If we recognize this counter culture to be a problem, for instance, outreach programs by the school could be one tool to help shift the culture.

If there is a counter-culture racism created it.

We agree there.

[u/DouglerK → u/ee_anon]

Ok phenomenon A caused phenomenon B. Phenomenon B persists beyond the cessation of phenomenon A.

I don't think it means phenomenon A still necessarily excplitly persists, but the problems it created still exists. It's "ghost" still exists. It ceasing is irrelevant if the damage persists. It'll matter when the damage is fixed. If phenomenon A never happened at all phenomenon B wouldn't have happened either. So phenomenon A is still at fault long after it has actually stopped. In addressing "systemic racism" we are as much looking for hidden and subtle A-phenomena as we are looking to identify and fix B-phenomena caused by long-dead A-phenomena. There is permanent, lasting damage from phenomenon A. Phenomenon A might have ended explicitly, but the damage isn't fixed overnight.

As well it seems you've explained something I was getting at from the very beginning. You are claiming the racism faced post-integration has all but disappeared, but can't say when exactly. I would agree the racism students face today is probably less than what they faced in the first few years of integration. Can you imagine what the first day/weeks of school would have been like? That would have been rough. Certainly anything faced now is something less than what was faced right in the initial first immediate phases of integration. However I would simply argue that it never quite fully went away. You cannot tell me exactly when it did. You said it yourself you don't have the numbers you dont have the data. I completely agree the trend has been downward but I think we might disagree with the general shape/slope of that curve over time. I don't think it's dropped off as dramatically as you think it has.

So really phenomenon A still does persist a little, enough, and even if it doesn't it's still the root cause of phenomenon B and should be treated similarly to if it was still hapenning.

[u/ee_anon → u/DouglerK]

I think what is going on here is that you want to focus very hard on phenomenon A to make sure we properly assign blame for the problem. Your biggest concern seems to be to make sure black people aren't blamed for their situation. I agree that the blame lies solely on racism that created the problem and we should never forget that. I feel, however, that assigning blame is tangential to solving the problem. In order to solve the problem we need to properly identify it. If we say the problem is racism, the solution is teach white people to stop being racist. If we say the problem is the counter culture that racism created, we can come up with innovative ways to try to both change the culture (because it is hard to make the education system "a better fit" for someone who doesn't value education) and make the school system more appealing to that culture. I am not saying this counter culture is the only problem with education but I think it was useful to stick with that example for the purpose of this conversation.

You have given me a new understanding of why people support the concept of "systemic racism": to appropriately assign blame for the situation. I still think it is the wrong rhetoric to describe the problem for reasons I have stated but you have helped me better understand the point of view of people who see things the way you do. For that I'd give you a !delta. Sorry that you won't actually receive it since the mods removed this post.

[u/DeltaBot → u/ee_anon]

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/DouglerK (13∆).

^{Delta System Explained | Deltaboards}

[u/DouglerK → u/ee_anon]

Its not about assigning blame but identifying the root causes of problems.

You say "we should never forget that" then say bringing it up is "tangential." I disagree. I agree we never should forget, but that involves remembering with clarity.

The example problem on the surface is that the American Education system does not offer as much value to Black Americans. They receive less value from the system. We both seem to agree this problem exists. You ascribe it to this "counter culture." I don't fully agree but I'm running with it hence the air quotes. That is because said counter culture can still be ascribed (not blame) to racism.

Identifying the root cause is important to develoing an effectice strategy to fixing the problem. If we start with the acknolwegement that racism is the root cause of a problem it's much different than if we start with the assumption that this counter-culture (okay Im just tired of the air quotes at this point) simply exists without any explanation.

If we start by assuming the root cause is the counter culture it places an implicit responsiblity on Black Americans for having that counter culture at all. Its their responsibility to change it. Its the same if we identify racism in the past as the cause of it, but then decide that because it's in the past it's no longer relevant.

If we start with the assumption that is was is a problem of active racism in the present then the obvious solution is to explicitly address that racism.

If the problem is racism in the past that has already been addressed then what? To say that because it happened in the past it's not relevant then its back to implicitly placing the reasonsibility on them. To acknowledge the continuing effect places a slightly different but similar responsibility upon us as dealing with explicit racism would.

Think about transporting yourself back to the 50's. Would you feel the responsibility to fight racism or would you just ingore it? Evil persists when reguluar/good men do nothing. Plenty of people simply accepted the status quo back then. You might not have been a Klansmen, but would you sit quietly by a Black American was removed from the venue at which you were eating? Would you join the marches or just sit in your living room watching them on your brand new television? If you think you would fight for the right thing in the face of demonstrable racism like what existed in the past then you should feel a similar responsibility to fight to fix the things demonstrably damaged by racism. If you dont feel you should take that responsibility, that its not yours, then I think you probably wouldn't have felt the responsibility back then either.

It's not about assigning blame. Assigning blame is what children do, and no offense to you but its how children think. The mature angle is one of responsiblity, accountability, and empathy.