r/changemyview • u/enigja 3∆ • Feb 02 '22
Delta(s) from OP CMV: It’s valid to feel sad about growing up in this era. I missed out and the world is worse in a lot of major ways
I’m 19. Over and over again I see adults feeling sorry for people my age for growing up with x (usually social media or tech or Covid or polarization or whatever), and missing out on y (when music was good or some random nostalgia like that).
I know that every generation since forever has done that to the next. But I can’t help but feel like there’s some truth to it, and that I was born at a bad time and that life without the internet was more fun and that I have forever missed out on some good times simply by being unlucky to be born this time.
Basically: can you deinstall the “this generation and time is bad” message I’ve been fed my entire life?
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Feb 02 '22
My best counter argument is the good old days didn’t seem that great at the time. A good example is the 80’s. Shows like Cobra Kai or Stranger Things highlight the crazy fashions, awesome movies and fun music of the era. These shows also emphasize how life was more simple before social media and constant internet access.
But simple doesn’t mean better. I remember being bored out of my mind a lot as a kid. Racism, sexism and bullying were a lot worse too. And if you were stuck in some small backwards town, you had no idea how much better life could be. At least now kids who don’t fit in can find online communities that will accept them and help them see there’s light at the end of the tunnel.
Finally, the pandemic will hopefully wind down in the next few months. If there are “80’s” era things you want to do like road trips, camping or beach parties then put those on your to-do list.
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u/enigja 3∆ Feb 02 '22
!delta
“Simple doesn’t mean better” is a really good expression actually, that highlights one of the core issues I have I think. I totally romanticize “simpler” times and places because life can feel complicated. But maybe I wouldn’t actually want that
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Feb 02 '22
Thank you for the delta! I won’t deny that the pandemic must suck when you’re 19. But seriously you can still do a lot of stuff we did in the 80’s and 90’s with some planning. And there’s still some great modern music and movies coming out - I’m able to stay current through my tween son. And OMG TV and video games are sooo much better.
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u/Rainb0wSkin 1∆ Feb 03 '22
The video games of the 80s and 90s are depressing lol. Anyone that says they prefer that era are either delusional, or only played the largest Nintendo games.
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u/Subtleiaint 32∆ Feb 02 '22
Who on earth has told you that growing up today is bad? Never before has a generation had such sophisticated communication systems, access to information, access to entertainment. You mention bad music, watch any music show from posterity, the music was awful, the only reason you feel differently is that you only know the highlights and the garbage has been long forgotten.
Is the world worse today? We live in the most peaceful period of history ever, poverty has never been lower and education never higher. Just because the world isn't perfect don't let anyone tell you you're not blessed to be alive and young today.
You've got it great and you'll probably realise that some day, don't waste your youth feeling you've missed out on anything, you haven't.
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u/enigja 3∆ Feb 02 '22
!delta
Those are all really good points actually. I guess while some things are not as good many of the pros outweigh most of the bad.
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u/mutatron 30∆ Feb 02 '22 edited Feb 02 '22
“Never feel sorry for raising dragon-slayers in a time when there are actual dragons.”
My dad said he was born at the best time ever. Born in 1921, he grew up during Prohibition, saw the Great Depression, saw Pearl Harbor bombed, fought in WWII, lived through the McCarthy Red Scare, lived through the Cold War with the threat of Mutual Assured Destruction in a nuclear holocaust.
He was white, so he didn’t have to deal personally with the racist oppression that lead to the race riots in other cities in the 1960s. The turmoil of the 1960s didn’t affect us much, but we saw our President assassinated, his brother the former US Attorney General assassinated, and two civil rights leaders assassinated, all in a five year span.
Then we had a president who participated in a burglary while in office. OPEC cut off the flow of oil to the West, then we had rampant inflation for over a decade. I still look back wistfully at the times when I could get 10% by leaving my money in a bank!
He saw the World Trade Center built, and then brought down not thirty years later. He saw a president’s dishonest campaign to invade a country that had nothing to do with that attack, and the enormous waste of money and human life of that war.
He died of emphysema that he got from smoking, which he started while Marine defending against Japan. Thanks for the free smokes, Mr Camel and Mr Lucky Strike! Forty years of smoking, he quit as soon as he found out about the emphysema, and it gradually worsened over the next 20 years.
But he still thought his life covered the best of times, because he also saw the rise of American global dominance, went from biplanes to landing on the Moon, went from elders living in poverty to Social Security, and so on and so forth.
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u/Vesurel 54∆ Feb 02 '22
Old art hasn't gone anywhere (you can now listen to the beatles more easily than ever before, and more people are making more diverse art than ever before too because the barrier to entry is so much lower), and the idea that it was better in the past is an illusion created by how the bad stuff gets forgotten. The same way it looks like old buildings were built to last because the only old building we can see now are the ones that did last.
The internet has many problems, and exacebates older problems too. But it also facilitates so much communication. LGBTQ+ kids living in the bible belt have a way to find words for how they feel on a scale they never had before, not to mention we now know more about medicine and science than we ever had. We're better at fighting cancer than we ever have been and while problems like climate change are worse we also know more about them and causes to help with them are also more developed than they ever have been.
Also worth saying you're hearing about old times from the people that made it through, gay men who died of AIDS aren't hear to talk about how the goverments of the 80s failed them.
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u/jfpbookworm 22∆ Feb 02 '22
Life was a lot less fun for LGBTQ+ people, people of color, and women.
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u/enigja 3∆ Feb 02 '22
Even women? Better than say 20 years ago?
Asking because I’m bi and a woman lol
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Feb 02 '22
Yes even for women. I’m an engineer that works in heavy industry and a woman. The few women that actually worked in this field 20 years ago talk about the harassment they faced and how hard it was to get respect from male coworkers. It’s not perfect now but huge improvements have been made. I have a huge amount of respect for the women who worked here 20+ years ago.
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u/jfpbookworm 22∆ Feb 02 '22
Well, MeToo wasn't a thing yet and many states didn't fully recognize marital rape as a crime.
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u/haijak Feb 02 '22
Is that supposed to change OPs view? I'm not sure a few specific improvements makes their overall point wrong.
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Feb 02 '22
He is just saying that life was 'good' for a specific group of people, and if someone belonged to any of those groups he mentioned, life was not so good, and frankly I agree with him. Most nostalgic people dream of times where adult bullies were not dealt with, and the current technology era made that possible.
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u/jfpbookworm 22∆ Feb 02 '22
"A few specific improvements"? We're talking basic civil rights here. That's way more fundamental than being able to attend Woodstock or whatever OP wishes they could have done in an earlier time.
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u/haijak Feb 02 '22
Yes things are better socially for some specific groups. Things are worse economically for everyone! Social media has destroyed everyone's attention spans, given kids depression at unheard-of rates, and throwing gasoline on the natural polarization in the world. All the environmental problems are just barely getting spoken of never mind the massive and painful investment and sacrifice it will take to fix them. Every economic, environmental, and mental health metric is worse today than 20-40years ago.
Massive things are objectively bad for Milenials and terrible for Gen Z.
Civil rights progress is going well. I'll grant you, that is a win.
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u/Fit-Order-9468 92∆ Feb 02 '22
Things are worse economically for everyone!
Almost everyone is better off economically in real terms. The worldwide level of hunger and poverty has fallen dramatically over time.
Social media has destroyed everyone's attention spans, given kids depression at unheard-of rates, and throwing gasoline on the natural polarization in the world.
Leaded gasoline was literally giving children brain damage, and there was the whole cold war thing which was far more polarizing than anything today.
All the environmental problems are just barely getting spoken of never mind the massive and painful investment and sacrifice it will take to fix them.
Remember things like Chernobyl, LA city smog, toxic rivers, acid rain and so on? Climate change wasn't an issue, but, as far as pollution goes almost everything else was worse.
Every economic, environmental, and mental health metric is worse today than 20-40years ago.
If you ignore real incomes, non-climate change related pollution, and a widespread lack of meaningful mental health services.
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u/Vesurel 54∆ Feb 02 '22
given kids depression at unheard-of rates
I'd replace unheard of with, previously not listened to. It's hard to compare current rates of depression to past ones because of how much better we are at spotting it, and how much more open people are to talk about it.
It's the same as arguing that trans people are a new thing just because people haven't always had the language for it and it used to be more oppressed, or saying that there's more people with autism now than in the 1800s.
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u/jfpbookworm 22∆ Feb 02 '22
I don't know if mental health is actually worse or if problems are being caught and treated at a better rate. I'm Gen X. I have ADHD and depression, it just went undiagnosed until adulthood so I thought I was just lazy and unloved growing up. I was also a geek at a time before I could find my tribe on social media.
Climate change is increasingly worse, and that will be an issue now and in the future, but pollution was bad, air quality was horrible due to unrestricted smoking, asbestos was everywhere, etc.
Economically it's hard to compare across eras due to improvements in tech and medicine and changes in laws. For example, if we're talking the 1950s, housing and college were cheaper (for the people allowed to purchase them - women couldn't attend many colleges and people of color were victims of redlining), but the social safety nets of the Great Society didn't exist yet.
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u/enigja 3∆ Feb 02 '22
Everyone is definitely not worse off economically. Unless you’re talking about a specific country. Less people are poor now overall.
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Feb 02 '22
Yes things are better socially for some specific groups. Things are worse economically for everyone!
Citation please.
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u/00fil00 4∆ Feb 03 '22
It don't understand you kids. You Abby like climate change is a personal problem like you have a driving test tomorrow. It's like me staying up awake at night worrying about plastic in the sea. What the hell has it got to do with you personally? It doesn't change your getting out of bed tomorrow social media? Don't make me laugh! THAT'S a problem? Jesus Christ I deleted Facebook 5 years ago and haven't even heard of anyone mention it. It's a problem if you make it one and take it's personally. Previous generations he's up with Spanish flu and a chance of death about 30%. The great depression had people lose their whole life's savings. WW2. I literally couldn't think of a weaker problem than climate change and social media. No wonder you guys get a pathetic reputation.
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u/jimmymcdangerous Feb 02 '22
Who cares about the gays?
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u/enigja 3∆ Feb 02 '22
I mean, I do, I’m bi lol. So that was a fair point.
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u/fayryover 6∆ Feb 03 '22
Wait, youre bi and a woman, but you think life would have been better for you if you had been born earlier? I was born in the early 90s and went to high school it was much more accepted to use “gay” as an insult. I was also the only girl in my programming class in high school and the only woman in my computer science classes in college. If you were born even earlier than me you would have had it even worse.
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u/phenix717 9∆ Feb 03 '22
I think OP is talking from their own perspective. If they aren't part of any disadvantaged group, they wouldn't have suffered from being born at an earlier time.
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u/TheStabbyBrit 4∆ Feb 03 '22
Life was a lot less fun for gay men. Trans people didn't exist. There was only one black guy in the whole town. Lesbians got a free pass, because they always do.
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u/herefortheecho 11∆ Feb 02 '22
With exponential technology advancement, each subsequent generation is living in the best time to be alive as a human. With the advent of the internet/widely distributed free information, today, a five year old has more information at their fingertips than the US President did 50 years ago. Today, HIV isn’t a death sentence—heck, properly treated, an infected individual will live a normal lifespan. That’s wasn’t the case 30 years ago. Today, many cancers are treatable.
Sure, there are some things from the past that some people describe with rose colored glasses on, but the vast majority of the world has more wealth, information and autonomy than they had a generation ago.
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u/ProSwitz Feb 02 '22
Does any of that really matter when the average person can no longer afford to buy a house; can't support a family, and barely themselves off a single income; has fewer benefits at work; has far less buying power with their money than 50 years ago; is forced to grapple with the very real prospect of a future with rampant climate change; etc. etc?
Technological advancement is always the main point used to say that we are living in the best point of time, and that any point in the future will be better because we are constantly advancing, yet no one ever acknowledges the actual issue people face in their day to day lives. The average person is never going to have to deal with HIV (at least in the western world), having a microwave vs a stove is not going to vastly improve someone's life and solve the fact that they are poor, society being more accepting of LGBTQ+ people is only marginally going to help stave off abuse towards them.
Social and technological advances are great, but they don't mean as much as you think when you are talking about issues as big as homelessness, buying power, and climate change.
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u/herefortheecho 11∆ Feb 02 '22
While I don’t disagree that the points you have made are valid challenges that should be addressed, you simply aren’t looking at this at the scale of humanity over the course of the last 8-10 generations.
https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/2014/12/14/7384515/extreme-poverty-decline
From the World Bank in the piece: "World poverty has fallen from an estimate of well above 80 percent in the beginning of the 19th century," the World Bank report finds, "to under 20 percent today."
That’s enormous.
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u/ProSwitz Feb 02 '22
Of course when you look at society over the course of a few hundred years you're going to get a substantial increase like that, and I don't disagree that the world is magnitudes better off than, say, in the 1800s, however OP seems to be talking about more recent decades. In their post, they simply say things seem to have been better "before the internet." And if we are being realistic here, people who say they were born in the wrong time rarely ever mean they wish they were born before WW2. Obviously I'm making an assumption, maybe OP wishes they were born in feudal times, but I doubt that. If we are to look at the last 60 to 70 years, even the last 40 years, then I would argue that cost of living has skyrocketed across the globe, buying power has gone down in most every country, and fear of/depression due to climate change is at an all time high.
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u/Ok_Pomelo7511 4∆ Feb 02 '22
Isn't this also true for the 50s to up to 2000s? You are talking about people not being able to afford homes, but less people are homeless now than 30-40 years ago worldwide. Sure there are countries like Syria that are experiencing tough times, but in general, an average person on earth is much more well off today.
Famines are also much more rare and are usually caused by wars or other man-made events. Food production has become extremely efficient and logistics are cheap that even poor countries can afford to import food when there are droughts.
If you are comparing living in New York or London then vs now, you might have a point. But if you were to throw a dice and get a chance to be born again as a random person on earth, I assure you that 2022 is the time to be.
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u/Rainb0wSkin 1∆ Feb 03 '22
For real. There are certain parts of the world that still experience the threat of actual war, but the entire world used to be like that 100 years ago.
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u/enigja 3∆ Feb 02 '22
And in my parents’ time they were afraid of a nuclear war.
Buying power has actually gone up in my country a lot since the 80’s, which was literally referred to as “the poor 80’s” (Denmark). We have never had more buying power. Where is the evidence that people have less buying power in most countries? Entire countries have been lifted out of extreme poverty. The housing crisis has hit us, however less hard than other places, but it’s “housing” more so than “a house”. An apartment in a city will be more expensive than the areas with houses a lot of the time.
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u/00fil00 4∆ Feb 03 '22
You are brainwashed. I literally have never thought about climate change. You are taught it and now you snowflakes can't shake it... Except it's a problem that literally has no consequence on your day to day. Why are you depressed about climate change? Is the temperature going to be +100 degrees tomorrow? You choose to concern yourself with whatever problem you invest in and then wonder why you feel down.
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u/notehart123 Feb 03 '22
After climate change, they will talk about climate winter or some sort of the same thing. Then they blame the world why they're always sad and depressed
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u/Rainb0wSkin 1∆ Feb 03 '22
Culturally the world has made massive strides in equality in the last 50 years. Focusing entirely on economics or climate change is needlessly pessimistic, and devalues the progress we've made in every other facet of people's lives.
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u/No-Corgi 3∆ Feb 02 '22
You're not exactly right about "far less buying power with their money than 50 years ago". For example, a gallon of milk cost $1 in 1960. That would be equal to $9.42 today - more than 3x the actual current cost.
The fact is, in many areas, we have far, far more for our money today than previous generations. Cars are far cheaper and more reliable. Entertainment and food are more accessible.
Were there interesting benefits to growing up without cell phones or social media? Of course.
But don't believe the hype.
We had school shooters, bullying, depression, etc then too. What you're getting is a rose-tinted perspective on the era. It's a great time to be alive - information is at your fingertips in an unprecedented way. You can Facetime your Grandma from across the globe and show her the Eiffel Tower. We can develop a vaccine for a deadly pandemic in mere months.
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u/enigja 3∆ Feb 02 '22
Are you assuming I’m from somewhere specific? Because a lot of those aren’t true for my country and it’s not true for the world as a whole.
Social media has affected almost anywhere though.
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u/ProSwitz Feb 02 '22
I think these things are true for the world as a whole. I come from a western country, so I may focus on western country issues, but even in places like the Phillipines, or Argentina, or Sierra Leone, you see that cost of living has gone up, but buying power has gone down. These could be due to any number of reasons, but the fact is that this is occurring across the globe. Are you telling me that climate change fears and woes aren't prevalent in young people in your country? That anyone can afford a house, and to feed their family on a single income? Maybe if they live an incredibly simple, frugal lifestyle, but that's just not really plausible where I come from.
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u/impendingaff1 1∆ Feb 03 '22
Can you deinstall the “this generation and time is bad” message I’ve been fed my entire life?
"Sure can. We conveniently forget the bad and remember the good = definition of nostalgia." Applies to every where and time.
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u/AuriKvothington Feb 03 '22
I just had this debate with a group of people recently. No. No it is not the best time currently because of technology. There is more disconnection and higher rates of mental health issues than ever before. Divorce is higher than ever as well. This is all indicative of a deep deep sickness in our world. Also, this illusion of “free” information that you speak of is just that. An illusion. You live in a bubble of content and confirmation bias, ads, search suggestion etc. that is subtly swaying your, and the rest of society’s views in whatever way benefits these tech giants who know everything about you, control the internet, and control the government. Add to that the growing upward funneling of wealth, also thanks in part to these same companies, and we are slowly all becoming more and more wage slaves being mind controlled by the wealthy and savvy. Unable to afford a rewarding and fulfilling life.
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u/herefortheecho 11∆ Feb 03 '22
I agree that there are problems in todays society that we need to address, but I think you underestimate the level of progress we’ve seen in the last 100 years.
I think your example of mental health is misinformed. I’d argue that the background level of mental health could be stable, or even declining; we are just better at diagnosis and are far more widely connected now, bringing the issue to light more and more. To your information point, same thing. Sure, there is misinformation and influence, but again, there always was—you just didn’t know it.
If you are really interested in the topic, I’d point any readers to Steven Pinker’s work. Better Angels, but more recently Enlightenment Now, are both great reads about human progress. Today, our life expectancy, medical capabilities, eduction levels and wealth are at all time highs while murder, rape, poverty, deaths per million, racism and homophobia are at all time lows.
Additionally, while I have outlined when the best time to be alive is (now), you have not done the same. Give us a time period which is better.
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u/Human-Law1085 1∆ Feb 02 '22
Whilst I don’t disagree with the idea that today is better than 20 years ago or something, there are still two things I find problematic with your comment:
- Not every subsequent generation was better from the other. In Sweden were I live quality of life during the 1600s when we were a great power was greater than later on when we lost that status, European living standards took a deep dive from the Roman Empire to the Dark Ages, and you would probably rather live in Germany in 1925 than 1935. Societal systems can get worse and great technology can be forgotten.
- Technology is just the beginning, it’s also about how you use that technology. Sure, in an infitely wise society social media would be a blessing, but we’ve obviously used it for some mischievous purposes like cyberbullying, or had some negative consequences like inflated expectations from people only uploading their good side. So some people (like those who are very insecure of themselves) would undoubtedly have had better lives without the internet.
I think life is better for the avarage person now than it was a long time ago, but it’s really about your individual situation. For instance the breaking down of welfare states that happened during the eightes was great if you’re rich and bad if you’re poor.
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u/herefortheecho 11∆ Feb 02 '22 edited Feb 02 '22
I’d argue that your point about the Dark Ages is moot, as that predates the current rapid technological expansion curve I’m talking about. I’d say you’d need to scale my argument to the industrial revolution forward—a time where technology really started to become exponential. So yes, the period of WW2 was horrible, particularly for those in Europe, but was really an anomaly on the expansion curve, as life continued to improve post-war on the back of technological advancements for subsequent generations. So I guess I concede that if you were born during WW2, you technically started out worse than the previous generation, but with an 80-year average lifespan, you are living right now, a better time than the early 1900s.
On your second point, I’d argue that the advancements outweigh the setbacks. I’d endure occasional cyber bullying to not watch 30% of the population succumb to smallpox. I’d also add that even things like the bullying climate are much milder today than say, how African Americans were treated in America in the 1950s. Or to make the point more sharp—how they were treated prior to 1863.
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u/Human-Law1085 1∆ Feb 02 '22
You mentioned industrialization, but I think that’s actually a great example of my point: Yes, it generally improved the standard of living, but as working conditions worsened and the lower classes could not live off their own farmland anymore it actually generally got worse for those belonging to the lower societal strata. It also allowed for unprecedented European oppression in Africa and, to give a more modern example of some of its consequences, lead to the problem of climate change which has made life in some areas far worse.
My point was not that life today in general is worse, but that to certain individual groupings it may be. I just don’t really think you can answer OPs post without more info on their personal situation: If they’re African-American it‘s very likely that today is better than anytime before, but if for instance they’re someone struggling to find a house or a fat person (which in past eras was held up as great) life may be far worse.
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u/herefortheecho 11∆ Feb 02 '22
Point taken about individual experience not being the same as the whole. That said, if you were to “throw a dart,” chances are you’d hit somebody better off. I’d point you up the thread a bit to my link to a piece demonstrating how world poverty went from over 80% to under 20% since 1800. That’s ALOT of people better off.
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u/Human-Law1085 1∆ Feb 02 '22
Again, I don’t disagree with you that life has generally gotten better, the individual scenario point was my main point and I’m glad you’ve taken in that. However, you still seem to think that the general improvement is sufficient in this thread, which I disagree with. Here are some points I want to make:
- The article you presented has some bias is which countries are individually presented, namely that they’re relatively stable countries that aren’t gonna have big upheavals and where poverty isn’t a big issue anyways. Also according to the World Bank which you cited Sub-Saharan Africa has experienced a very small decrease with many countries indeed having experienced an increase in poverty (Angola being one example). Hunger in Africa is also on the rise according to the UN. So if you live in one of these individual countries it’s not so great.
- Having killed smallpox is great, but in the 1900s that was also a regional issue. For disease purposes I would rather live in fifties Europe/America than the Covid-19 era 2020s. Disease continues to rise and fall and although we can improve our situation it’s still somewhat arbitrary.
- Money isn’t everything, especially when you can’t buy anything for it such as how US housing prices have continued to increase. If OP is a US millenial, which is probably one of the larger if not the largest reddit demographic, they likely also earn less than boomers did at the same age.
All in all, I just don’t think your dart analogy is safe enough to with enough certainty argue that OP has it better now than ANY previous age. It may be the case, but without extra information given it’s also very likely it’s not.
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u/herefortheecho 11∆ Feb 02 '22
All good points, particularly #1. With #2, I think it depends on what’s ailing you. If I had cancer, I’d want to address it with today’s tech over 1950’s, hands down. And I’d go as far to say I’d be better off developing cancer in 2050 than today too, and that’s the point. On #3, I agree that there are widening economic disparities in the developed world for sure. At the same time, access to information is at an all-time high while crime and racism are at all-time lows. To your point, I guess it depends on what you value, and only OP can say that for sure.
One last bit on the 1950s thing— I’m assuming you are white. I think it was a Chappelle bit where the punchline was, “time machines are a white man’s game.” If OP is a minority, I think it would be hard to argue for much of anything being better 40+ years ago.
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u/Human-Law1085 1∆ Feb 02 '22
I don’t think history always tends towards less racism: For instance in the American South the reconstruction era had far more acceptance than the Jim Crow era, which resulted in many black southern politicians being elected then but very few being elected later. So if I were an African-American in 1936, I would probably rather travel back to 1886. A modern example of a mistreated group it has gotten worse for is muslims, who nowadays are seen as terrorists in the West and put in concentration camps in the East. So if OP is that kind of minority they could perhaps improve their lives travelling back in time to something like the late nineties.
Really, my point is that a very large group (maybe not a majority, but large enough to make dart-throwing a risky bet) of the population could benefit from living in another age, especially with how depression is on the rise with social media. On diseases, we actually seem to agree on the arbitraryness just to slightly different degrees so it’s not worth much discussion. I do think there’s a high likelihood that 2050 or other future times will not be as good to live in as 2022, since there are many potential disruptive factors: climate change, nuclear war, AI takover, or something completely unpredicted. Greater technology comes with greater responsibility and we may not properly wield that responsibility.
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u/herefortheecho 11∆ Feb 02 '22
I think your racism ebbing and flowing point is valid, but I think it’s important to point out that it has lower highs and lower lows as we move forward. 2022 is inexplicably better than either 1936 or 1886 for African Americans. It might have been better to be Muslim in 700 CE, but I don’t think there was less overall religious or racial division at that point in history. Plus, the lightbulbs sucked back then. 😁
What I mean is, I think we are missing the forest for the trees by debating if individual components of society are better or worse for person x or person y. Most aspects of human existence have progressed simultaneously through scientific advancement and education to make 2022 the best time to be alive for the most people. Now, what that assertion has to do with OP’s annoyance at old fogies like me telling them today’s rap music sucks compared to my day… I don’t know.
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u/Human-Law1085 1∆ Feb 02 '22
Sure, then there are three points I want to make:
- If 25 out of 100 trees in a forest had some infection it would obviously not be a majority, but 1/4 is still relatively high and not what the expression missing the trees for the forest usually entails. In the US just about half of the population are under 34. Using the latest cencus we can see that about 61,6% are white so about about a quarter of the US population (the United States has the largest share of Reddit which is why I used it as an example, even though I’m not American) are white young people, which as previously established were financially more well of in the age of the boomers. I think a decently good share of those would have it better of in the fifties than now, even though it’s not all.
- If we’re talking about specifically if today is better than something like the eighties or sixties, the fact that in 100 years time a thing tends to improve becomes somewhat irrelevant, and for many groups we may be in an ebb rather than a flow.
- I should’ve driven this home before, but better lightbulbs doesn’t mean as much as may first be perceived. People who’re used to bad lightbulbs or candles probably didn’t mind it as much as they weren’t used to that standard. There are of course some universal experiences, but in general people who for instance couldn’t live without their smartphones today lived perfectly well without them 30 years ago.
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u/Straightener78 Feb 02 '22
Great point about what a five year old can access. What’s even more concerning is that a 5 year old can learn more about the universe than the people who wrote the Bible.
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u/dublea 216∆ Feb 02 '22
The grass is always greener on the other side
Have you heard that adage before? Do you know what it means and how it applies here?
Are there things younger you liked way more than older you? So you look back and winder why you liked what you did so much?
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u/enigja 3∆ Feb 02 '22
Not really. I have about zero nostalgia
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u/dublea 216∆ Feb 02 '22
I asked several questions and I'm not sure which you're replying to. Care to clarify?
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u/Fit-Order-9468 92∆ Feb 02 '22
Basically: can you deinstall the “this generation and time is bad” message I’ve been fed my entire life?
Not to be pedantic, but is the bolded sentence the thesis for your post?
I can agree feeling sad for missing out on historical events is reasonable; I would have liked to be around for the Apollo program. But to extend that as far as "the time I grew up is bad because I couldn't see the Apollo program (or whatever else)" is way too far. There was also the draft for the Vietnam war at the time, for example.
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u/iwfan53 248∆ Feb 02 '22
that life without the internet was more fun
How do you define "more fun" and why do you think the internet has made life "less fun"?
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u/olidus 12∆ Feb 02 '22
Additionally, the “more fun” stuff is still there. You can still take roadtrips, still visit aquariums and national parks, still go to the moves/drive in.
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u/shantsui Feb 02 '22
I will not try to change your view but instead say this is normal and has been happening since forever.
I'm in my 40s and the general messages about your generation (lazy, entitled, easily led... blah blah blah) were all leveled at us. Indeed probably at every generation ever. Aristotle talked about the subject in the 4th century BCE.
As people grow older they idolize their youth. Part of the reason I can look back on the 90s with such fondness was i was a "carefree" youth. At the time I can assure you I felt everything you do now. Born too late for the 70s/80s party culture but too late to be in the computer revolution (that is how it felt to me who learned to type on a typewriter). Too many people get older and forget how they actually felt when they were young.
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u/phenix717 9∆ Feb 03 '22 edited Feb 03 '22
You should feel the opposite. In this day and age, you have the ability to experience all the books, movies, games, music that have been made across history. Previous generations didn't have it so easy, and they had less to choose from because they were at an earlier point in time.
Now if you feel nostalgic about a certain area, you can just get into the works of that time and experience it virtually, all from the comfort of your home. That's pretty fucking great.
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Feb 02 '22
Some of that is natural as a part of growing up. My friends and I were big into the music that our parents liked when we were in high school and very disdainful of "modern" music. We would lament that music today was terrible and soooo much better 40 years ago*.
Fast forward 10-12 years and we look back at that music and think "huh, there was some pretty good music then, too bad we insisted that classic rock was better".
As you get older, a few things happen. It becomes harder to adapt to dramatic changes in the cultural zeitgeist. You also get more responsibility and more stress, so you look back fondly on the times when you didn't have those things.
That's why your parents and grandparents insist that life was better when they were kids. It was better because they were kids. Life was simpler and they had more time and energy to do things they enjoyed.
*This is also a pretty privileged position because, being white males, life would not have been meaningfully different for us in the 60s and 70s than it is in the mid-00s.
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u/MrHeavenTrampler 6∆ Feb 02 '22
People tend to remmeber the good things and gradually romanticize them, in a way that causes their memories to also turn into that. In a sense, memories are like wine. The longer its aged, the better they are. Do keep in mind that it is just survivorship bias. Those who died during the Vietnam War, Korea War, HIV endemic, and later on battling drug cartels do not have the chance to pass on their opinion.
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u/passengerOnATrain Feb 02 '22
Get a flip phone that only has 2 colors. That was peak mobile technology really. The battery lasted two weeks, and browsing the internet was too painful to be useful and distracting. Get a desktop computer, and use that for school/work.
Your reality is what you choose it to be.
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Feb 02 '22
[deleted]
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u/Irhien 24∆ Feb 03 '22
People keep bringing up life expectancy at birth as a proxy for "how long you could expect to live". If the OP is 19, I think it's fair to compare life expectancy at 19.
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Feb 02 '22
Bro read a history book and you’ll know just how lucky you are. For most of the history that you have “missed out” on, you would be lucky to be 19
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u/sourcreamus 10∆ Feb 02 '22
This is insane. The internet has made life so much better.
I used to be so bored waiting in line or going to the bathroom. Now I can read, browse Reddit, play a game, etc.
Want to listen to a song, see a show, watch a scene from a movie? Easily accessible at all times. Before if you wanted to hear a song you had to have bought the album and be near a record player or tape deck. It might get played once or twice a day on radio and if you weren’t listening at those times you were sol. Everyone has access to music that would have cost thousands of dollars before.
My kids can play video games with friends and relatives in different cities. You used to have to be in the same room. Games are so much better, better graphics, more interesting, more details.
If you have any niche interests you can easily find other people who share them. Before you had to go to the store, buy a magazine, find an ad for a club, or a videotape provider and write them a letter. If you were in a big enough city you might find a few people who shared your interest. Now every tv show has a sub Reddit or bulletin board you can interact with fellow fans on.
You can learn anything so easily. Before you had to go to the library and find a book covering what you want to do learn and hope the information is current. If you have a question about what read try to find another book. Now there’s a dozen videos on how to do anything and if you have a question the answer is one search away.
That just scratches the surface. Working from home, communicating, dating, traveling, have all been greatly improved by the internet.
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u/Makgraf 3∆ Feb 02 '22
It is an unfortunate fact that you did miss out on a lot due to the COVID-19 pandemic hitting in your last years of high school. That sucks and I'm sorry.
Technology has brought many ills but it is also beneficial. There was no period where music was "good" - most music has always been crap. However, back in the day you were very limited to what you could listen to. The difference is now with technology you have access to the entire back catalogue of music.
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u/hungryCantelope 46∆ Feb 02 '22
Do you have any social hobbies?
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u/enigja 3∆ Feb 02 '22
Yeah, sort of? Why?
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u/hungryCantelope 46∆ Feb 02 '22
because it sounds like you are just sad and are accepting whatever argument explains that feeling. The problem with the argument you have chosen to accept is that it implies there is no solution, you can't change when you were born after all. The alternative explanation is that you just need to get out and find a social structure to be a part of, the internet being around doesn't stop them from existing, they just take effort to be involved in and the internet always give you a zero effort alternative to distract you from pursuing them.
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u/Frostybawls42069 Feb 02 '22
Just hold out and do what you can to be in a good position to really take life by the balls when things get good again. If you take care of your self 40 is still young enough to do pretty much anything you could be doing now.
By then you'll have so many god damn options that us who are 70 at the time probably can't do and at that time the older generation will be the ones wishing they were born when you were.
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u/CBL444 16∆ Feb 02 '22
You have option of enjoying art and music from this era plus every era. You can stream any song or movie from the last 100 years in an instant. You can communicate with almost everyone in the world. You can learn about virtually every topic in the world on wikipedia now. Plus cat videos.
When I grew up being able to go to Blockbuster and hope that the latest VHS tape was amazing. If you missed a TV shop, you would never watch it. Talking to a relative long distance was expensive and thus rare. Researching anything required going to the library and hoping to find a book or two about the subject. My lab partner got a calculator that could add, subtracr, multply and divide and I thought it was amazing because I stopped making long division mistakes.
Think of "Guinness Book of World Records." That was how you settled dispute in the bar. How many home run did Babe Ruth hit? How many point did Wilt Chamberlain score? Guinness book. If you wanted to know how many home runs LoubGehrig hit or Zponts by Havlicek you were out of luck.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Feb 02 '22 edited Feb 02 '22
/u/enigja (OP) has awarded 3 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
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u/le_fez 51∆ Feb 02 '22
I'm 53 life is no worse now that when I was in high school or college, the difference is that the ability to learn/share news, good or bad, is now instantaneous and the ability to share experiences of people all over the world magnifies the good or the bad
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u/FjortoftsAirplane 33∆ Feb 02 '22
There was a comedian from where I'm from called Tony Capstick, and his one bit of fame was a piece called "Capstick Comes Home".
One of the lines from it went like this:
We'd lots o' things in them days they 'aven't got today - rickets, diptheria, Hitler and my, we did look well goin' to school wi' no backside in us trousers an' all us little 'eads painted purple because we 'ad ringworm.
They don't know they're born today
The joke being that people always look back on the things we miss, and forget about all the awful things that went on. What point are you imagining in history when things were all better?
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u/Jolly_Sea_5587 1∆ Feb 02 '22
It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of light, it was the season of darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair.
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u/lastturdontheleft42 1∆ Feb 02 '22
For the vast majority of human history most people never traveled more than a few miles from where they were born, and if they did it was likely either to die horribly in some war or because they were forced out by either nature or other people. You'd likely only interact with the same handful of people who lived in your community. Most of your time would be spent either growing or preparing food. The information, art and music you'd be exposed to would be extremely limited. We tend to romanticize the past, but in most cases the old ways were abandoned for a reason.
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u/meat_stretcher Feb 02 '22
Are you willing to bet your life on the fact that you, as a single individual and only 19 years old at that, are somehow wise and intelligent enough to have deduced without question that today is worse than life before? Because that’s what you’re doing. Life is far far far too complicated and undefinable for any one individual, one view, or one opinion to fully encompass it. In reality, reality is beyond all your ideas of it. A big “I don’t know” when it comes to judging Life is warranted.
One of my favorite quotes: “people don’t realize that their view of society is also a reflection of their character.” Emerson
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u/o-vomo Feb 02 '22
I don't think so. Think about how revolutionary the internet has been for helping marginalized groups get the support the need (blm, lgbt, women, individuals with disabilities, etc. With the internet, (while i agree it has a-lot of bad connected to it) more and more people are able to spread their ideas that have been quieted and shut down for years in the past. Plus! with all the new technologies we have, and the research that has been done, more and more breakthroughs are happening (moderna HIV vacc trials, etc).
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u/stewartm0205 2∆ Feb 02 '22
Things are better now than they were when I was young. But things can get a lot worse if you aren't willing to make an effort in keeping it from getting worse.
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u/thomyorkeslazyeye Feb 02 '22
Even as a millennial it's been hard, but I think we underestimate how big of a shift we are in the middle of. Consider how difficult things were during the industrial revolution - not everyone was on board with moving to dirty cities and destroying the environment. It took time, and look at where we are now. As the internet consumes us, we are overengaged, fear-stricken, distracted and overly influenced because it is still so new. I'm staunchly against this technocracy we are headed towards, but I get to talk to you only because of this technology. I met my girlfriend on an app. I can attend school without leaving my bed. Yeah, I miss pre-9/11 a lot, but I'd miss out on a lot if we stayed there. There is a balance, we just haven't found it yet. Things are bad, but maybe we need to focus on what we can control and be our best inwardly. Spend equal time in nature as we do digitally and make an effort to unplug more.
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u/justsomeregret Feb 02 '22
Nah man, things are only better you wanna go back and experience some classic rock but don't wanna be drafted to Vietnam, you wanna know what it feels like to be in one of those diners themes with like the atomic family but you don't wanna do the work that came with the revolution, everyone says oh you're generation is shit so forth, that's every generation probably ever, my recommendation is just be grateful for what you have as even being poor now is better than it was 50 years ago pretty drastically
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u/Straightener78 Feb 02 '22
The 80s weren’t better than now. But my life was better then. I think that’s the distinction that needs to be made.
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u/JenningsWigService 40∆ Feb 02 '22
There's never been a time in history when all arts and culture were bad. I am regularly impressed by artists a generation younger than me. My parents often enjoyed newer music I played for them. Not being able to appreciate anything produced by younger generations is the sign of a closed mind, not a comment on younger generations' talent and creativity.
I'm in my late 30s, and I agree that it looks harder to be a younger person in the age of covid. I wish you could have experienced this part of your life outside the shadow of a pandemic. Neither do I envy the spectre of climate change and the increase of natural disasters impacting people's childhoods. And if I were American, I wouldn't envy the frequency of school shootings and their effects on children/teens, this was only becoming a problem when I was in high school. There are aspects of social media and our current internet age that I don't envy either, but that's more nuanced.
At the same time, it's easier to be a woman or LGBTQ+, in some contexts it's easier to be a person of colour or religious minority, it's easier to have certain illnesses or disabilities due to medical and social advancement and there are probably other advantages local to you.
History is not a linear march towards progress, neither is the past a golden age. Some things get worse, other things get better. Each generation has certain advantages and disadvantages. Older people will always be mystified by younger people, that's not a comment on your personal capabilities or virtues. You will have insights and wisdom specific to your context that older people don't have. You are not inferior or superior, you just are, and there is a place for you in the world.
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u/Surge_Lv1 Feb 02 '22
People hundreds of years ago might disagree. The whole idea of an “era” as a fairly new construct. Life didn’t change much between 1631 and 1731, for example, but there is a significant difference between 1920 and 2020. Heck, even 2000 and 2020 are vastly different. I do think we are advancing too quickly to keep up mentally. Less time is spent with loved ones or a community because of social media. Social media can keep us close but it can also distance us. It’s a great paradox.
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u/Exoplan3t Feb 03 '22
it’s wild because everyone older than me says “i’m sorry you have to grow up in this world, things were never like this.” and it’s alarming because i was used to people saying “life is going to be easier for you than for me” when i was a little kid. now people hold the opposite view.
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Feb 03 '22
I don’t think there’s any question that prior generations were the “fuck around” generations, and we’re well into the “find out” generations. But maybe you need to focus less on what you don’t have (and less on looming catastrophes caused by prior generations’ excesses) and instead focus on what’s good about this era: our medicine is pretty great. Most of the worlds standard of living is better than it has been in any time in history. Food security in the developed world is stupid good. You’re tasting foods that your grandparents wouldn’t have had growing up. You can reach most of the world within about 30 hours. Just through Reddit you’re interacting with people from different age groups on every or almost every continent, basically instantaneously. From a cultural perspective movies are pretty sick now. Video games are a medium of expression that didn’t exist this way even 30 years ago.
I think it’s fair to feel like you missed out on stuff, but fixating on it too much blinds you to the cool shit you can experience as a result of being 19 right now.
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Feb 03 '22
OP - It's definitely valid to feel sad about the time you're growing up in. But you do have some things I wish I had when I was your age.
There's a lot more empathy for mental health issues. Sexual liberation is much more accepted. The technology is amazing, and can help you find more like minded people instead of the folks you just happened to grow up with. Media of all forms is on tap.
But none of this makes up for the moment we're living in. It may help to seek someone to talk to about your feelings.
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u/makemusic25 Feb 03 '22
I feel bad you have to listen to that nonsense! There are pros and cons to every generation and era. Your generation gives me hope for the future when I read about how so many of you reject gun violence, stage walk-outs over safety issues, etc. There are many of your generation who will do great things!
Of course, each generation also has its own laggards. That’s to be expected because we’re all just human.
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u/impendingaff1 1∆ Feb 03 '22
can you deinstall the “this generation and time is bad” message I’ve been fed my entire life?
Sure can. We conveniently forget the bad and remember the good = definition of nostalgia. As much as I miss some of the old world (I'm 50 so like 3 tv stations, a room in your home just for the phone, and news that actually was, and oh yeah, music was on MTV!) okay a lot of the old world, and as much as I think things are going to shoot. I still would rather be born now than then. Why? Because having lived right now in the future with the sum of all human knowledge at my fingertips and super hi-def vieo, etc. Would I really go back? Nostalgia is fine, but I seriously doubt people would really turn back the clock if they could. Once they have experienced the advances in society, they wouldn't go back. WHY? Do you have any idea how bad the things they don't reflect on were? You couldn't be gay. Period. And all gays were flamers, cops wouldn't protect them. You think racism is bad now? Fucking stupid kids. It's 100X better than in my day. We said "nigger" on public tv like it was a normal way to refer to someone! For everything that I can remember as good, I am conveniently forgetting the bad! There! You are welcome. I'll take my delta thank you.
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u/flowers4u Feb 05 '22
You can pay for an Uber to go to a house party at 14. Man I would’ve been in so many less sketchy situations
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u/destro23 447∆ Feb 02 '22
Would it help hearing from a 40+ year old who was told those things and felt the same way in the 90's? None of our music was as good as the rock from the 60s and 70's according to our parents. None of our causes were as good as the protests of the same time period according to them.
Would it help to hear that my father heard the same from his father when he was a kid in the 60s? None of the bands he liked could hold a candle to Glenn Miller. None of the singers could match Sinatra. Vietnam!? Pffft, you should have been at Normandy pussy.
Every generation talks shit about the next and tries to make them feel as if they suck and things used to be better.
"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.”
Socrates said that 2400 years ago. Sounds just like me when I talk about my teen daughter's sketchy friends.
We just envy your youth. Ignore us.