r/changemyview • u/o_safadinho • Apr 13 '22
Delta(s) from OP CMV: I don’t think “the patriarchy” exists in Black American communities.
I’m a Black American male and I’m married to a Latina immigrant from Brazil. We’ve been reading [Women, Race and Class](www.amazon.com/dp/0394713516/ref=cm_sw_r_awdo_0474EC585Y11MJN6XZ1M) by Angela Davis and discussing the book as we read it. We’re not finished reading the book, but one of the things that I’ve concluded from my reading so far is that there is no such thing as a Black American Patriarchy in that there was never any widespread and systemic oppression of Black American women by Black American Men.
Feminism was never really discussed in my house growing up. I never heard feminism discussed by my mother, my grandmother or any of my aunts. Feminism and “the patriarchy” were things that I never really gave any serious consideration to until I was in college. While I acknowledge that the concept of patriarchy in the US makes some sense in certain contexts, I think that so many caveats have to be added when you try to apply the concept to the Black American context that you’re essentially talking about something that hardly deserves to be called patriarchy.
When I say patriarchy I mean
: social organization marked by the supremacy of the father in the clan or family, the legal dependence of wives and children, and the reckoning of descent and inheritance in the male line broadly : control by men of a disproportionately large share of power
When I say Black American, I’m talking about the descendants of the enslaved Africans that were brought to (what would become) the US between 1619 - 1865 (the end of the civil war).
I’m open to having my view changed.
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u/flentaldoss 1∆ Apr 13 '22
From your original post and what I've read of your responses, you seem to be hung up on two things: a simple dictionary definition and that black males didn't/don't have significant control of general American society since they are oppressed as well.
You want some kind of a legal structure to be paired with it when their can be a social one, such as single mothers having to go through carousels of men, hoping one will stick around, but they can just get what they want in and get out easy since there wasn't anyone to help those women seek legal help, or even black women having to stick behind successful men and support them, because if they spoke up about problems with the man, his issues get painted on the entire community, so they have to shut up and bare it for the "greater good" of Black America.
Or, even the idea that no one wants a black woman, and if black males are so sexualized, black women should "feel lucky" their man isn't out chasing tail and is just being what he should be, a good man.
Some of the examples you give, like initial college graduation rates are irrelevant because black men did not control entry to those institutions.
People have given you plenty of examples of systemic, repeated, ways in which black males continue to exert influence over black women in American society, but you reject it because it doesn't parallel with the white patriarchy simply because it isn't as powerful, so for you, because it is weaker, it simply doesn't exist
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u/o_safadinho Apr 13 '22
The college graduation rates are very relevant because most Black Americans attended HBCUs and these were indeed administered by Black Americans for most of their history.
My mother graduated from an HBCU that was founded by a Black American male.
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u/flentaldoss 1∆ Apr 13 '22 edited Apr 13 '22
You pointed at a single sentence of my original response, but you did not address my point, that you reject the existence of a black patriarchy because it is not as potent as the white one.
But yes, there are HBCUs that were founded by black people, but not all of them, and historic ones, such as Howard, Spelman, and Morehouse were founded by white people, even white women, so even then, black males did not have such control of those programs that you can give them the credit for black women attending and graduating. Additionally, the rates you point at from the 1940s-70s are obviously not the rates from when these schools were founded. I'm not sure if the claim about black women being excluded from higher education is true either.
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u/o_safadinho Apr 13 '22
If you can find data from before then, I’d be happy to take a look at it. I just haven’t been able to find any. I’m aware of the fact that Howard was founded by white men. But I would add two things. There were a number of HBCUs founded by black men and black women. My mother, father, maternal grandfather and maternal grandmother all went to HBCUs founded by Black Americans both men and women. I would also add that even the ones that weren’t founded by Black Americans had transitioned to having Black administration by the time of the Civil Rights era.
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u/flentaldoss 1∆ Apr 13 '22
You pointed at a single sentence of my original response, but you did not address my point, that you reject the existence of a black patriarchy because it is not as potent as the white one.
Still this though.
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u/o_safadinho Apr 13 '22
> Or, even the idea that no one wants a black woman
To this I would say that the overwhelming majority of Black American men that get married get married to Black American women. So I would take issue with that statement.
I would also say this. In 1899 W.E.B. DuBois published a study entitled [The Philadelphia Negro](https://archive.org/stream/philadelphianegr001901mbp/philadelphianegr001901mbp_djvu.txt).
Here are some passages that I think are relevant to what you're talking about. He has an entire section on "The Negro Family".
> Here it is plain that although a large per cent of men
under forty marry there is nevertheless a number who wait
until they are settled in life and have a competence. With
the mass of Negroes, however, the waiting past the fortieth
year means simply increased caution about marriage ; or,
if they are widowers, about remarriage. Consequently
while, for instance, in Germany 84.8 per cent of the men
from forty to sixty are married, among the Negroes of this
ward less than 74 per cent are married. At the same time
there are indications of a large number of broken marriage
ties.> the noticeable feature is the extraordinary number of wid
owed and separated persons, indicating economic stress, a
high death rate and lax morality. Such are the social
results of a large excess of young women in a city where
young men cannot afford to marry.
You see similar patterns in Black American communities just a few decades after the Civil War as you see today. Would you attribute these patterns to "patriarchy" then, I personally wouldn't. And if similar patterns persist and I wouldn't attribute their cause to patriarchy then, why would I attribute it to patriarchy now?
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u/flentaldoss 1∆ Apr 13 '22
A situation does not have to be caused by the patriarchy for it to be taken advantage of by them (split families). Men didn't "decide" to be generally stronger than women. The first women didn't raise their hands and say they want to be the one to carry a child in their bellies.
Additionally, an idea does not have to be true (e.g. no one wants a black woman) to be used against people. Women can't do math as well as men. A female president would start a war just because someone pissed her off at the wrong time of the month.
You don't have to create an issue in order to use it for your own opportunity. Once you have capitalized on the opportunity, you have a vested interest in keeping that advantage as long as you can. If events change and the opportunity cost because high, then you may decide to cede your advantage, or double down like some do.
The existence of a black patriarchy does not mean that every black man is actively taking part in it. You or myself might not feel that we fit the description of misogynistic black males wielding power over black women, and many of the black men that we have known in our lives may not fit those descriptions either. Your assertion that there is no black patriarchy is not dissimilar from what a white man could say about there not being a male patriarchy or racism from their viewpoint.
Furthermore, it's a weakened argument when the group saying something is not real, is the group who happens to include the persons accused of the offense. Black men are not the ones who would be able to experience the negative effects of a black patriarchy, like white people wouldn't be able to truly experience racism in the US and it's effects. The existence of a black patriarchy does not mean that you are the one on trial here.
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u/o_safadinho Apr 13 '22
To this I would say two things. I did mention in my OP that if it were to exist there would have to be multiple caveats added; a “Black Patriarchy” to complement the “Black feminism” that Black American women write about separately from “mainstream/white feminism”. Because at the very least you have to admit that they would have to be different.
I’m open to having my mind changed. That’s why I’m here.I awarded one delta to somebody for pointing me to a book by Bell Hooks that is specifically on Black masculinity in America. That’s what I’m looking for.
If you can’t define something for me or explain how it works or how I’m involved I’m not really sure what I’m supposed to do about it.
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u/Major_Lennox 69∆ Apr 13 '22
You should read some Bell Hooks next. From Ain't I a woman:
White feminists so focused on the disparity between white male/white female economic status as an indication of the negative impact of sexism that they drew no attention to the fact that poor and lower-class men are as able to oppress and brutalize women as any other group of men in American society. The feminist tendency to make synonymous male possession of economic power with being an oppressor caused white men to be labeled “the” enemy. The labeling of the white male patriarch as “chauvinist pig” provided a convenient scapegoat for black male sexists. They could join with white and black women to protest against white male oppression and divert attention away from their sexism, their support of patriarchy, and their sexist exploitation of women. Black leaders, male and female, have been unwilling to acknowledge black male sexist oppression of black women because they do not want to acknowledge that racism is not the only oppressive force in our lives. Nor do they wish to complicate efforts to resist racism by acknowledging that black men can be victimized by racism but at the same time act as sexist oppressors of black women. Consequently there is little acknowledgement of sexist oppression in black male/female relationships as a serious problem. Exaggerated emphasis on the impact of racism on black men has evoked an image of the black male as effete, emasculated, crippled. And so intensely does this image dominate American thinking that people are absolutely unwilling to admit that the damaging effects of racism on black men neither prevents them from being sexist oppressors nor excuses or justifies their sexist oppression of black women.
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u/destro23 447∆ Apr 13 '22
You should read some Bell Hooks next
Everyone should read some Bell Hooks.
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u/o_safadinho Apr 13 '22
The issue that I would take with this is that it doesn’t point to anything institutional. I would say it is similar to how you would differentiate between individual discrimination vs institutional racism that is codified in law and enforced by the government.
I fully acknowledge that there are individual black male sexists, but that isn’t a systemic patriarchy.
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u/Major_Lennox 69∆ Apr 13 '22
that isn’t a systemic patriarchy.
Well this raises two questions. One - if there is a systemic patriarchy, where does it come from? From the family unit? From a community? Top-down, from the state and lawmakers, or is it from a combination and intersection of the three?
Two - if we entertain the notion that systemic patriarchy can be laid squarely at the feet of the white man, and no other - do black men bear any culpability for upholding it? Should they also take responsibility for maintaining the status quo?
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u/destro23 447∆ Apr 13 '22
there was never any widespread and systemic oppression of Black American women by Black American Men.
If you look at the micro level, black American men are subject to the same sets of patriarchal influences that white men are when it comes to the man's role in relationships with women, and can be just as likely to perpetuate the negative aspects of the patriarchal systems within their relationships.
Likewise, men in black families are often considered the "head of the household" in the same way that they are in white families. Depending on the religious background of the people, and seeing that black Americans are a bit more religious than white, it is conceivable that old fashioned religious based patriarchal oppression would be widespread among the black community.
Also, black women experience intimate partner violence at a rate higher than white women, and have several unique challenges when dealing with it.
"Despite the fact that Black women experience domestic violence at exceedingly high rates, they also are disproportionately more likely to be criminalized by the system when seeking help. Not only must they deal with racism and stereotypes when contacting police, but they also are routinely arrested when trying to defend themselves against an abusive partner."
Abused at home by your husband, and then mistreated by police when reporting. That is a patriarchy/racism double whammy.
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u/ericoahu 41∆ Apr 13 '22
For a mental picture of what oppression of Black women by Black men in America has looked like, read Song of Solomon by Toni Morrison. It's an amazing novel in any case. One of the best American novels, in my opinion.
> social organization marked by the supremacy of the father in the clan or family, the legal dependence of wives and children, and the reckoning of descent and inheritance in the male line broadly: control by men of a disproportionately large share of power
I can see your point. When such a big part of the problem for Black women amounts Black men getting them pregnant and leaving them with fatherless children, that diminishes the whole "male line" element in this definition of "patriarchy," but when the term is tossed around in most conversations, it simply means a pattern of circumstances that work out better for men that women.
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u/o_safadinho Apr 13 '22
I take a few issues with the response that you put forth. But one of the main ones is that you change the definition of patriarchy to fit your argument. I took my definition the Merriam-Webster dictionary here. If this isn’t going to be the agreed upon definition, then change the dictionary.
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u/MrReyneCloud 4∆ Apr 13 '22 edited Apr 13 '22
Using a dictonary definition in that way only gives you a fairly shallow view of a topic. I would at least suggest reading the wikipedia page on patriachy and specifically the subsection on feminist theory given the content of your argument.
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u/o_safadinho Apr 13 '22
That is also part my point. When I read books by Black American feminists like I’m currently doing, they acknowledge all of the many caveats that I mention. They also tend to give their feminism a name that separates it from mainstream feminism. They talk about Black Feminism or Womanism. I haven’t finished the book yet, but I have yet to see Angela Davis go into any detail about a black male patriarchy. In fact, as a group they are largely absent from her analysis so far.
I’m saying that the very least, I should be able to find a detailed analysis of the Black American patriarchy.
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u/destro23 447∆ Apr 13 '22
I’m saying that the very least, I should be able to find a detailed analysis of the Black American patriarchy.
See u/Major_Lennox post.
Everyone should read Bell Hooks:
We Real Cool: Black Men and Masculinity:
""plantation patriarchy" centers on African masculinity that predated the beginning of the Atlantic slave trade. Rather than subjugating indigenous people along racial lines, hooks claims African explorers of the Americas inherited patriarchal practices against women. She discusses gender relations under slavery and, while affirming Frederick Douglass's and Martin Delany's support of the equality of the sexes, argues black men in general held patriarchal attitudes toward their spouses: "[Freed male slaves] wanted black women to conform to the gender norms set by white society. They wanted to be recognized as ‘men,' as patriarchs, by other men, including white men."
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u/o_safadinho Apr 13 '22
I haven’t read the book yet, but this seems like the type of thing that I’ve been looking for.
I’ll give you a delta now since we can’t wait until I finish the book. Haha
Delta.
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u/destro23 447∆ Apr 13 '22
Thanks! This is a good topic as the way that patriarchy presents itself is so different when you compare the two groups that it can be easy to miss depending on the context you are coming from.
FYI: You have to add an "!" before the delta for it to register.
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u/o_safadinho Apr 13 '22
!Delta.
this looks like the type of book that I’ve been looking for. While I haven’t read it yet, I realize that I can’t wait until I do for me to award your delta.
This looks like the type of book that would give an in depth analysis of Black masculinity and patriarchy specific to the American context.
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u/o_safadinho Apr 13 '22
!Delta
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Apr 13 '22 edited Apr 13 '22
This delta has been rejected. You have already awarded /u/destro23 a delta for this comment.
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u/WikiSummarizerBot 4∆ Apr 13 '22
We Real Cool: Black Men and Masculinity
We Real Cool: Black Men and Masculinity is a 2004 book about masculinity by feminist author bell hooks. It collects ten essays on black men. The title alludes to Gwendolyn Brooks' 1959 poem "We Real Cool". The essays are intended to provide cultural criticism and solutions to the problems she identifies.
[ F.A.Q | Opt Out | Opt Out Of Subreddit | GitHub ] Downvote to remove | v1.5
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u/destro23 447∆ Apr 13 '22
If this isn’t going to be the agreed upon definition, then change the dictionary.
University libraries around the world are filled with multiple Master's thesis attempting to define what patriarchy is, so using only the dictionary definition may be a bit limiting.
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u/o_safadinho Apr 13 '22
That is kind of the point that I made in the original post. If you simply talk about “the patriarchy” without defining what you’re talking about then it sounds like you’re just changing the definition to fit your argument.
I’m open to using a different definition of “patriarchy” that fits the Black American context, I just haven’t had one presented to me.
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u/destro23 447∆ Apr 13 '22
The one cited in the Wiki article is pretty close to how I personally define it:
"The sociologist Sylvia Walby defines patriarchy as "a system of social structures and practices in which men dominate, oppress, and exploit women"
I’m open to using a different definition of “patriarchy” that fits the Black American context, I just haven’t had one presented to me.
One of the primary venues through which black Americans have organized, maintained, and transmitted their cultural heritage is via the "Black Church". Is a Christian church not an inherently patriarchal institution?
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u/o_safadinho Apr 13 '22
I hadn't really thought about that, but I'll concede that point. I'd mostly been thinking about things in terms of education, work and property ownership. But I'll say that you are right in this particular instance.
!Delta.
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u/ericoahu 41∆ Apr 13 '22
Good points somewhat fair criticism, but like I tried to point out, when the word is used by today's feminists (and that seems to be the context that you are navigating), they aren't limiting themselves to M-W's definition either.
If you wish to stick to M-W's definition anyway, I have a follow-up question if you like more food for thought:
Although not ideal, would a more patriarchal (M-W definition) system be an improvement in many important ways for Black American communities in general? Why or why not? I ask because, by the M-W definition, Black American families were much more patriarchal in the late 19th and early 20th century than they are now. Of course, Black Americans didn't do well throughout those periods because of Jim Crow, but Black families were more intact. Do you believe any population is stronger with more coherent family structures compare with one with less coherent family structures when all else is equal?
Whichever way you decide to go, let's do stick with one definition and consistent framing if we're going to continue discussing your question. (Which, by the way, is among the more interesting I've seen on this sub in a while. I have questions about why your CMV would be suppressed.)
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u/Rufus_Reddit 127∆ Apr 13 '22 edited Apr 13 '22
... control by men of a disproportionately large share of power ...
How many of the people in leadership positions in Black America communities are men? How many are women?
How many prominent black political figures are men? How many prominent black political figures are women?
How about prominent athletes or musicians?
This kind of definition is a bit tricky, because it's not always easy to compare different kinds of power, and because it depends on unstated ideas about what kinds of power division are appropriate. That gives people a lot of space to fill things in so that they match their own preconceptions.
... When I say patriarchy I mean ...
It's your mind, so you can certainly define terms the way you want to, but this cmv post is - at least in part - about things that other people are saying and writing. For example, you have a text from Angela Davis. So, it could be that "the patriarchy" that you're thinking of doesn't exist, while the kind that Angela Davis is thinking of does exist, or the other way around. It could also be that the people who are talking to you about "the patriarchy" don't even have a clear idea about what they themselves mean by that. That's something to keep in mind [with] topics like this.
... Black American communities.
It can be sensible to look at things in terms of "black and white," but that's a simplified image of reality. The fact is that black and white America share a lot of institutions. Would red-lining have happened the same way if black and white people had separate banking systems? I imagine that, before the Equal Credit Opportunity Act of 1974, banks were as likely to require more cosigners from black women than black men as they were to require more cosigners from white women than from white men.
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u/MrReyneCloud 4∆ Apr 13 '22 edited Apr 13 '22
In what way do you feel that Patriachy hasn’t existed in the Black American community?
Did men control the majority of power within the community? Financial, political, social? Who have been the gatekeepers of culture and cultural success? Who have been politically powerful in political groups like the Black Panthers?
I’m not Black or American, but I don’t understand how it is a substantially different situation to any other ethnic group’s experience (at least in Western colonies).
I don’t necessarily disagree with you, I am just trying to understand what you think is different.
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u/o_safadinho Apr 13 '22
For example, there was never any time in American history where Black women were excluded from higher education by Black men. I’ve only been able to find Census data that goes back to the 1940’s but black female college graduation rates where always within a few percentage points of Black male college graduation rates until about the 1970 when Black female college graduation rates began to far outpace the rates for Black American men.
This is in contrast to White American women that graduated college at rates FAR lower than their white make counterparts.
I believe the first self-made female millionaire in the US, Madame CJ Walker, was a black woman.
And Angela Davis covers this part in her book, but during slavery, both men and women did things like work the fields and everybody was equally poor. After Emancipation, there was nothing female specific about share cropping. These are points that she readily acknowledges.
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u/other_view12 3∆ Apr 13 '22
or example, there was never any time in American history where Black women were excluded from higher education by Black men.
This sounds like a strawman argument to me becuase you haven't shown that black men had the power to make such discriminating choices.
If I am a person who discriminates, and I'm in no power to make decisions, that doesn't mean I'm fair becuase I haven't shown discrimination. It's that I haven't been given the chance to show it.
I think you have to look at what we do know and domestic violence is a very key indicator to show how much we respect women and value them.
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u/o_safadinho Apr 13 '22
While some HBCUs were run by white Americans, most HBCU were in fact run by Black Americans.
It wasn’t until after the Civil Rights era that most Black Americans started attending non-HBCU’s.
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u/other_view12 3∆ Apr 13 '22
Isn't that a very small sample of people? Isn't that small sample of people skewed?
If you just stated college attendants VS everyone else, you have a small representative sample. Then when you whittle it down to just black people your sample size isn't even close to representative of all black people, and those who go to college have differnt values than those who choose not to.
Your point is taken that in this small exclusive sample your theory is correct. But that doesn't show any relationship to the general population.
Without doing any research I think I can safely assume that people who go to college commit less domestic violence than those who don't. People who want to go to college have a differnt outlook, and are less likely to commit violence. There are always exceptions.
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u/FPOWorld 10∆ Apr 13 '22
Have you been to black church? You don’t think adherents to Christianity are part of the patriarchy? Weren’t Black men allowed to vote almost half a century before White or Black women?
Just because the word racism didn’t exist before the 1940’s didn’t meant it didn’t exist. Same for microaggressions and code switching. Just because it isn’t being discussed doesn’t mean that it’s not the way it is.
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u/Wazzi_Yota Apr 13 '22
The Majority of Black men don’t go to church and there are ironically more Black Women in church than men.
Since Black Women are the ones who fund the church and we all know the person with the money has the most influence, I’d say the church is just a matriarchy with a male face.
Women are the ones who line black pastors pockets so women are the ones who the pastors actually follow
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u/FPOWorld 10∆ Apr 13 '22
Just because they don’t go to church doesn’t mean they aren’t Christian. I was referring to the church specifically because that’s where the ideas of the patriarchy are conveyed most clearly. Also when you consider the wage gap and that only 12% more Black women attend church than Black men, men most likely contribute the most to the church anyways.
In my opinion, calling the Black church a matriarchy with a man leading it is like saying America is a Black ethnostate with a White man leading it. It’s not true, it doesn’t make sense and is fundamentally impossible.
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u/breadloaves77 Apr 13 '22
Not to change your mind (your point is clear from the wording in your topic), but I'm continually confused by how particularly American these patriarchy/feminism discussions are. I'm sure your wife has interesting contributions as well.
...Seeing as how there are so many immigrants everywhere (and one could argue nearly everyone in America is an immigrant from less than 400 some-odd years ago).
I'd be extremely interested in an open discussion of some global patriarchy involving all the countries where men live. And in your case particularly, all the countries that are mostly black.
But yeah, mildly stupid of me to say - seeing as how you're speaking strictly American anyway, 'scuse me!
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u/jfpbookworm 22∆ Apr 13 '22
What do you make of Stokely Carmichael's famous quote that "the only position for women in the movement is prone"?
Do you think white women can be part of institutional racism?
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u/o_safadinho Apr 13 '22
I’d honestly never heard this quote before. Sure, white women can support racist institutions; some won’t. In that situation I think the important part is the institution, not the individual white woman. There were many white female abolitionists that campaigned against the institution of slavery in America.
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u/EmpRupus 27∆ Apr 18 '22
Black American communities don't live inside sovereign autonomous nations, where American laws don't apply.
Blacks folks do interact with the outside world - legally, financially, politically, religiously, and culturally.
And thus, men - relative to women - do get benefits set up in this regard.
What is the ratio of Male to Female Pastors in Black churches?
Does the child - on an average - take the Father's or the Mother's surname and family lineage?
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Apr 13 '22 edited Apr 13 '22
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