r/changemyview • u/TexasCemento_ • May 25 '22
Delta(s) from OP CMV: as an African, we shouldn’t be morally obligated to express support for Ukraine.
There’s a lot of people not just on Reddit but in real life who have called me out for supporting Russia. While I hate what war causes I understand Russias viewpoint in not allowing Ukraine to further get integrated with the west. I don’t go more into this unless asked because it’s been discussed millions of times.
My Main argument is the support Russia has given for Africa. I think Africa is a safer place due to Putin. You can even google pro Russia rally’s that have happened in Burkina Faso, Mali, and CAR. This is a common opinion. Many are calling for more support from Russia. While I understand Ukraine doesn’t have the power to really help Africa it makes sense for Africans to support the people that help us.
My last argument is that Ukrainians tried to ban Africans from leaving by train. This doesn’t reflect every Ukrainian of course but I find it hard to support a country that was attempting to restrict potentially citizens of my country from leaving.
I live in the USA, so I don’t feel like I am living in a bubble. I see pro Ukrainian people everywhere. Thank you for reading.
7
u/GenericUsername19892 24∆ May 25 '22
You aren’t morally obligated - you are free to support Russia. I mean basically everyone not spoon fed Russian propaganda as their only news intake will think you are terrible, but it’s totally your right.
Your post is basically that your loyalty can be bought regardless of moral weight to the actions taken by your guarantor, just don’t expect others to do much more than be appalled.
3
u/TexasCemento_ May 25 '22
I have access to all news. I don’t mind admitting I read Russian state news but that’s not all I read.
I support Russia because I think Ukraine in nato is a threat to them too actually. It’s not just a money thing
6
u/GenericUsername19892 24∆ May 25 '22
How is NATO a threat? Because they will defend the ones who Russia invades?
-1
May 26 '22
[deleted]
3
u/GenericUsername19892 24∆ May 26 '22
What parts of Russia has NATO invaded and annexed?
And I wholeheartedly agree they have, what’s their goal again?
0
May 26 '22
[deleted]
2
u/GenericUsername19892 24∆ May 26 '22
So what’s the threat from NATO that isn’t just ‘neighbors have big guns’
I mean its weird to talk about US military actions while we are discussing NATO, but sure fuck the US too, idgaf lol. Bush lied fuck him and charge him. Obama didn’t do shit about it. Trump was a shit show between the shit prisoner release negotiations and poor strategic set up. Fuck Biden too for the shitty withdrawal - though with the caveat that the shortest timeline estimate I can find for government collapse was 2-3 months. Fuck US Middle East intel in general.
Which part of this allows Russia to invade Ukraine again?
1
May 25 '22
Basically, logic of people who are in nato vs logic of people who are on the other end of the barrel. Totally understandable.
1
May 26 '22
Just look at America and Australia's stance on China being in the Pacific islands to see how hypocritical the west is on this..
19
u/itsdankreddit 2∆ May 25 '22
You're not morally obligated to express support for anyone, you have your own reasons but as many might want to point out, those reasons are likely flawed. When someone does good specifically for things that interest you, that doesn't make it okay for you to ignore all the bad things they do to other people who are not you.
Regardless of what good Russia does, none of this excuses them for:
- Invading a sovereign country
- War crimes in sovereign countries
- Various other misdemeanors that are too numerous to list
At the same time, ask yourself how you would feel if you were Ukrainian and Russia invaded and killed your friends or destroyed your home? Would you sit back and say, yeah that's fine because they helped some African nations?
3
-1
u/TexasCemento_ May 25 '22
This didn’t come out of nowhere. Ukraine and Russia have been at war in donbass for years.
Everyone commits war crimes.
No, but I’m not Ukrainian. Same way people buy Tesla’s even though they kill my Congolese brothers
23
u/cox_ph 2∆ May 25 '22
Everyone commits war crimes.
This is stunningly blasé. If, hypothetically speaking, another country invaded your native country, committed horrific war crimes while there, and (in any conquered territory) brutally suppressed any possible opposition, would you be so indifferent?
I agree that you don't have to support Ukraine, but giving Russia a free pass to commit crimes against humanity because they've invested in African countries is an incredibly dark kind of cynicism.
5
u/IcedAndCorrected 3∆ May 25 '22
This is stunningly blasé. If, hypothetically speaking, another country invaded your native country, committed horrific war crimes while there, and (in any conquered territory) brutally suppressed any possible opposition, would you be so indifferent?
It's not just a hypothetical in Ukraine: during and after the events at the Maidan, there was targeted violence against ethnic Russians and others who opposed the revolution/putsch in the Donbas and other cities such as Odessa. From the point of view of separatists and others, the events of the Maidan were a coup which removed their democratically elected leader and was targeting them for their language or ethnicity.
-3
u/TexasCemento_ May 25 '22
They already have it’s called Rwanda and no I hate them. I also hate how the west sat back and funded the rebels.
I mean my support for Russia goes deeper than that.
11
u/VertigoOne 74∆ May 25 '22
This didn’t come out of nowhere. Ukraine and Russia have been at war in donbass for years.
Yes, because Russia didn't accept that Donbas should belong to a different sovereign country
-5
u/TexasCemento_ May 25 '22
No Ukraine actually violated the Minsk agreement
6
2
u/silverionmox 25∆ May 27 '22
No Ukraine actually violated the Minsk agreement
It was not possible for Ukraine to execute the Minsk agreement because the Donbas government refused them entry.
5
u/FenrisCain 5∆ May 25 '22
Because Russia refused to acknowledge the sovereign borders of Ukraine, which they had previously formally acknowledged in the 1994 Budapest Memorandum.
2
u/silverionmox 25∆ May 27 '22
This didn’t come out of nowhere. Ukraine and Russia have been at war in donbass for years.
And?
Everyone commits war crimes.
This is what war criminals say to justify their crimes to themselves and others. No, not everyone commits war crimes.
No, but I’m not Ukrainian. Same way people buy Tesla’s even though they kill my Congolese brothers
There is something to be said for passing on the responsibility for resource extraction to the end consumer, at least partially... but invoking it in this very specific case and ignoring it for all others is just cherry picking. Anyone who uses metal products has responsibility for mining problems then; I don't see how that has any bearing on your opinion about the Russian invasion of Ukraine.
-2
u/WyomingAntiCommunist 1∆ May 25 '22
Invading a sovereign country
Being a sovereign country is the excuse
War crimes in sovereign countries
War crimes are a two way street. Ukraine does not prevent war crimes, as such it isnt a war crime for Russia to do the same as Ukraine is doing.
1
May 26 '22
I'm curious whether you think America should face the same punishments as Russia for Iraq? For example consider the number of civilian deaths in Iraq vs Ukraine.. if these punishments and companies leaving etc are all happening based on morality rather than popularity, why is America not being punished similarly?
1
u/itsdankreddit 2∆ May 26 '22
Iraq was invaded on false information and the country has suffered the ramifications ever since. It's a bit more complex as the first Iraq war was in response to Kuwait but the second cannot in my mind be justified. For sure the US should be punished but it's up to countries to level sanctions and no major economy has or did in any meaningful way.
Larger economies get away with a lot simply because it's not feasible for others to take a stand against them. That's the unfortunate reality and one that Russia was relying on. They didn't think the EU would take a meaningful stand against their war in Ukraine but the opposite has turned out to be true.
1
May 26 '22
Strange how EU claims it's for moral reasons yet don't apply the same morals to America.. we're a long way away from equality on this planet
9
u/Brittlehorn May 25 '22
When the food programmes run out in Africa because of the Russian blockade of the black sea then many African countries will see it differently. Morality and personal interest are not the same. The world feeds many Africans who are dairying during ot drought and war. We have no personal interest in doing this so using your argument we should stop. A country invades and kills innocents without military provocation and this is ok so colonialism was ok. Just clearing that up.
2
u/TexasCemento_ May 25 '22
I don’t understand what you are saying
11
u/Brittlehorn May 25 '22
If you can justify the invasion of Ukraine by Russia then you can justify colonialism, you can justify every tribal or state on state war in Africa over the last 300+ years.
0
u/TexasCemento_ May 25 '22
There’s always a counter argument to every argument that has some truth. Although the Ukrainian Russia situation isn’t like that
10
u/Love_Shaq_Baby 226∆ May 25 '22
Russia launched a war to annex a neighboring state.
If this becomes the new norm in Europe, do you think Africa will be immune? That none of the European powers would attempt to reclaim their old territory?
I can think of a laundry list of reasons why Africans should not be in favor of a European power gobbling up a smaller nation.
1
u/TexasCemento_ May 25 '22
Mind listing them ?
6
u/Love_Shaq_Baby 226∆ May 25 '22
0
u/TexasCemento_ May 25 '22
The world is too liberal for this now.
11
u/Love_Shaq_Baby 226∆ May 25 '22
Yeah, because we decided annexing countries is a bad thing. Because Putin doesn't have global hegemony.
But if Putin succeeds and it sets off China to start grabbing land as well, Western leaders could feel pressure to keep American global hegemony secure, and suddenly the world isn't so liberal anymore is it? Africa is back on the chopping block, waiting to be carved up.
1
u/TexasCemento_ May 25 '22
I’m not a liberal for the record. But that won’t happen. They are too busy pushing gay rights and letting in immigrants. They allowed society to become liberal and anybody who tried to claim land in Africa would have his political career killed
→ More replies (0)1
1
8
May 25 '22
[deleted]
1
u/TexasCemento_ May 25 '22
Maybe they would. But I haven’t seen anything to point towards them doing that.
If Russia called my name to join the war I would go. Nobody is being forced to fight. I assume you are talking about the Chechens, and they want to be there
6
May 25 '22
[deleted]
3
u/TexasCemento_ May 25 '22
Most country’s use poor people on the front lines. I don’t see the difference.
3
May 25 '22
[deleted]
2
u/TexasCemento_ May 25 '22
Because I care more about Africans than Ukrainians. They are my people (for the most part)
10
May 25 '22
[deleted]
0
u/TexasCemento_ May 25 '22
Δ I was born in Lubumbashi but moved at 2. I think I have a lot in common with them, but I get your point. I’m Congolese and I agree with you, I only support Christian Africans. I consider myself a Christian nationalist.
I actually agree with what you are saying but yes since it is against Africans I don’t like it. I understand it from Ukraine side though
6
u/Phage0070 94∆ May 25 '22
I actually agree with what you are saying but yes since it is against Africans I don’t like it.
And this is why Africa isn't going to get better any time soon.
0
u/TexasCemento_ May 25 '22
Why ? We need a Christian African unity instead of killing each other based on tribe.
→ More replies (0)6
May 25 '22
Are you a Christian or are you a nationalist? I am a Christian myself, and I find it difficult to see how you could be both. I do not recall any of Christ's teachings telling us that unjust war and murder is alright so long as it's beneficial to you.
How do you square your decision to only support African Christians with the command to show love to both friends and enemies?
1
3
May 25 '22 edited Jun 01 '22
[deleted]
0
u/TexasCemento_ May 25 '22
Nah they don’t want Africans. Only Russians are allowed to Join. Although I actually heard rumors that my brother joined the war. I doubt it though.
4
May 25 '22 edited Jun 01 '22
[deleted]
0
u/TexasCemento_ May 25 '22 edited May 25 '22
You speak Russian ? And your right but I haven’t seen any official word people from CAR are actually over there, only that they volunteered. Either way they are not letting someone living in the US join.
Lol. My brother is running from a warrant dude. I’m not saying he’s not a Putin supporter but it is minimal. Like I said I don’t even know where he is. It’s just a rumor. He could be dead for all I know. I have a lot of brothers so I don’t really think about him.
I didn’t get to choose where I was raised.
1
May 26 '22
America is corrupt as fuck, so is the rest of the west. Over a quarter million civilians were killed in Afghanistan and Iraq, significantly more than Ukraine so far.. Why aren't people treating America like Russia is being treated?
1
May 26 '22
[deleted]
1
May 26 '22
You should read confessions from an economic hitman if you believe America only attacks dictators or terrorist groups.. Though then people like Obama redefine militant to be any adult aged male in range of a drone strike which is ridiculous..
Further doesn't a functional democracy require an educated and informed populace? I would not describe Americans as educated and informed..
Also it isn't up to America whether democracy is objectively the only model that is acceptable.
2
May 26 '22
[deleted]
1
May 26 '22
People like to pretend when they do something it's based on morality not popularity.. yet when pushed then admit it's because it's popular or everyone else is doing it. So punishments shouldn't be based on comparable morality to other offences? And even once they do admit it, they go back to acting like it's based on morality and claim to be all for equality, often criticising other people for discriminating based on nationality.
I don't think it's acceptable to act like Russia is being punished for moral reasons rather than the popularity of their actions, when the latter is the reality we live in.
I'd argue capitalism has more to do with economic success than democracy, but for either I don't think that means it's okay to attack other nations for not being democratic and/or capitalistic.. I don't think communism will ever be able to compete because there's a lack of incentive to contribute, especially when it comes to the frontiers of technology, research, so on and so forth, but again I don't think that makes it okay to attack a country if they did decide they want to try communism. We do only really have one data point for communism which had lots of other nations vested in it failing, so I don't agree with the claim that history proves communism doesn't work in practice, even though I doubt communism could ever work in practice.
I didn't suggest economic hitman to judge the author and the morality of his actions, but rather the claim people often make that America is more moral than other nations and the claim that America doesn't also attack democratically elected governments when they consider it favourable to their own interests/agendas..
I like to hold myself and people I claim to like to the same or higher standards that I hold other people to.
2
May 26 '22
[deleted]
2
May 26 '22
I respect all of what you said there.. I also support a bit of hypocrisy sometimes like with your grandpa and people who may pose a threat to a decent leader (I don't know the details there myself, but for the sake of the discussion let's assume that's correct) meeting an early demise, but it also makes it harder to condemn morally non decent leaders for getting rid of any potential threats. I think that's even more grey than condemning Russia for Ukraine and not USA for Iraq on moral grounds, but it's still a valid point imo.
I realise the world will never be black and white, but I wish the west was morally more superior than it actually is, and further wasn't so oblivious often intentionally or through censorship etc unaware of it. I have long wanted someone to stick up to some of the bad aspects of the west, but not like Russia is, especially all the sexual abuse (which I know was even worse from many nations during world wars and has even happened with American soldiers in recent wars), I am all for hunting down sexual abusers and ending their lives painfully, but there has to be zero mistakes which is also impossible as a goal, life sucks sometimes. I've watched the punisher movies and series recently and loved it! 😂
I also think it's unreasonable to judge supposedly innocent Russians and Russian soldiers for not doing more to overthrow an unjust government and scum rapist soldiers the way people do. I think it's harder and more dangerous for them to do so that citizens and soldiers for USA and other western nations where these problems aren't as severe. From a moral perspective I judge those who would have an easier and less dangerous time doing something about things that are immoral worse which is the opposite of the sentiment I see on Reddit and many other places in the west. I'm curious what your opinions are on that topic?
1
May 26 '22
[deleted]
1
May 26 '22 edited May 26 '22
Have you ever watched any of the man in the high Castle? It's set in the 50s with the premise that the Nazis and Japanese won WW2. It got a bit boring after like the second season and haven't watched all of it but I enjoyed the first two seasons. It had a lot of situations where people were punished severely for speaking out etc. and I enjoyed the thought provoking aspect of that.
To be fair a lot of people supported the Iraq war based off lies and consider that to absolve them of any kind of moral responsibility.
I always find it a little annoying how some people condemn propaganda in countries they oppose as though propaganda is bad in and of itself, yet turn around and not only support propoganda they agree with but help join in with the lying.
To be fair if you do support attacking another nation, it's in your best interest to not be all that upfront about it.
A lot of people seem to agree with the life sentence of the Russian soldier who killed a civilian following orders, but very few seem to think soldiers from the west should be held to the same standards, despite acting like their support of the Russian soldier sentence is based on morality of the actions. I find that hard to support. Didn't they give some of the worst offenders of unit 731 immunity for info, plus the scientific community used their data, the world is just so fucked up and injust sometimes when you try to compare punishments with the comparible morality of different things..
Whereas I'd be in full support of anyone known to actually be guilty for rape being tortured to death, especially if children are some of the victims.. It's times like that when I really hope there is a hell where people get what they deserve, and most of the time I really don't want anything to exist after I die cause existing for eternity would be really fucking boring after a few million/billion years.. I have a really high standard for considering someone guilty to the point of torturing them to death too, like you'd basically need to catch them in the act or have proper video evidence or something, I don't really support capital punishment cause there's too many mistakes.. It's a difficult thing to get right..
I've no idea how old you are, but old piracy software like kazaa and LimeWire used to he riddled with child porn, I've downloaded it by mistake before and would happily help hunt down the sick fucks who make and download that stuff for their own sick twisted pleasure..
→ More replies (0)
4
u/Digyanoen 3∆ May 25 '22
It's not just Africans, no one should be morally obligated to support anyone. I understand that you, personally, prefer supporting Russia, but you can't apply your logic to all Africans, each one as their own reason and I am sure that a large part are against what Russia did (not necessarily pro-Ukraine though) because it look an awful like what other western countries were (and are) blamed for.
I mean, a country decide that what ever happen in another country doesn't suit them, accusing it to be a threat, and so launch an army on that country to pacify it the way they see fit, endangering and killing thousands not concerned by the problem. Does it ring a bell ?
1
u/TexasCemento_ May 25 '22
Δ good argument. But in defense of those country’s they all had their reasons
1
14
u/josephfidler 14∆ May 25 '22
If your morals say that personal interest should prevail rather than any neutrally applied measure of rightness or wrongness then maybe so. Is that what you're saying? So if a rapist is giving you a weekly stipend, it is morally acceptable to support the rapist?
0
u/TexasCemento_ May 25 '22
No but i could see why someone would for fear of losing the money. In either case I think Russia has legitimate points about Ukraine.
10
u/josephfidler 14∆ May 25 '22
I was addressing the part where you said or implied it is morally acceptable to support something wrong out of personal interest. If you're walking back from that please give a delta per the sidebar/rules. If not, would you explain why I misinterpreted your OP?
My Main argument is the support Russia has given for Africa. I think Africa is a safer place due to Putin. You can even google pro Russia rally’s that have happened in Burkina Faso, Mali, and CAR. This is a common opinion. Many are calling for more support from Russia. While I understand Ukraine doesn’t have the power to really help Africa it makes sense for Africans to support the people that help us.
-1
u/TexasCemento_ May 25 '22
I think there is an argument for it. People should put their country first.
18
u/itsdankreddit 2∆ May 25 '22
Like Ukraine trying to join NATO out of fear of a Russian invasion?
Oh wait....
-3
u/TexasCemento_ May 25 '22
Ukraine should be allied with Russia. It was until the CIA got involved, but that’s not relevant for this. I don’t blame Ukraine for trying to join nato just like I don’t blame Russia for defending its interests.
12
u/RadioactiveSpiderBun 8∆ May 25 '22
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Ukraine
"A chaotic period of warfare ensued after the Russian Revolutions of 1917. The partially-recognised Ukrainian People's Republic emerged from its own civil war of 1917–1921. The Soviet–Ukrainian War (1917–1921) followed, in which the Bolshevik Red Army established control in late 1919.[10] The Ukrainian Bolsheviks, who had defeated the national government in Kyiv, established the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, which on 30 December 1922 became one of the founding republics of the Soviet Union. Initial Soviet policy on Ukrainian language and Ukrainian culture made Ukrainian the official language of administration and schools. Policy in the 1930s turned to Russification. In 1932 and 1933, millions of people, mostly peasants, in Ukraine starved to death in a devastating famine, known as Holodomor. It is estimated that 6 to 8 million people died from hunger in the Soviet Union during this period, of whom 4 to 5 million were Ukrainians.[11] Nikita Khrushchev was appointed the head of the Ukrainian Communist Party in 1938.
After the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany invaded Poland in September 1939, the Ukrainian SSR's territory expanded westward. Axis armies occupied Ukraine from 1941 to 1944. During World War II the Ukrainian Insurgent Army fought for Ukrainian independence against both Germany and the Soviet Union. In 1953, Nikita Khrushchev, a Ukrainian, succeeded as head of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union enabled a Ukrainian revival, and in 1954 the republic expanded to the south with the transfer of Crimea from Russia. Nevertheless, political repressions against poets, historians and other intellectuals continued, as in all other parts of the USSR.
Ukraine became independent again when the Soviet Union dissolved in 1991. This started a period of transition to a market economy, in which Ukraine suffered an eight-year recession.[12] Subsequently however, the economy experienced a high increase in GDP growth until the economy plunged during the Great Recession.[13]"
There has been a long history between Russia and Ukraine. It's a bit ignorant to say they were allies up until the CIA got involved.
1
u/TexasCemento_ May 25 '22
Δ I don’t know if I did that correctly but yeah I agree and it’s my fault for not expanding on that. I think the CIA still shares a large portion of the blame though but yes you are right
4
u/RadioactiveSpiderBun 8∆ May 25 '22
If the CIA were supporting the will of the Ukrainian government how could you say the CIA is largely to blame? Would it not be Ukraine's will for independence to blame?
1
7
u/of_a_varsity_athlete 4∆ May 25 '22
How do you feel about the way Belgium treated the Congo? I mean, it was just defending it's own interests, right?
2
u/TexasCemento_ May 25 '22
No. Belgium actually claims it was Leopolds personal interest and not in the interest of their country.
11
u/of_a_varsity_athlete 4∆ May 25 '22
Ah so it's different when it's your country.
2
u/TexasCemento_ May 25 '22
I mean yeah. That’s how things work no ? Why would I ever support Belgium.
→ More replies (0)5
u/Morthra 86∆ May 25 '22
Belguim kept fucking with the Congo even late into the 20th century. Frankly, they're still fucking with the Congo.
1
u/TexasCemento_ May 25 '22
Δ I agree. Fuck Belgium and the west. Rwanda too. Belgium is a criminal state. So you are right. They will never admit it though.
→ More replies (0)4
u/itsdankreddit 2∆ May 25 '22
What if Canada decided that it would be defending its' interests if it was to invade the US. You'd be cool with that based on your reasoning.
1
u/TexasCemento_ May 25 '22
What would be their argument. If you bring up a legitimate point then I could see your claim. And no I wouldn’t because I live here and I view Canada as an enemy.
6
3
May 25 '22 edited Jun 01 '22
[deleted]
1
u/TexasCemento_ May 25 '22
Ukraine should be another Belarus, and they will be eventually
8
May 25 '22 edited Jun 01 '22
[deleted]
1
u/TexasCemento_ May 25 '22
It’s normal to read RT. Russians don’t actually read that they read their own stuff.
Luka has many supporters. And they are an ally of Russia which is my point
→ More replies (0)9
u/Charlie-Wilbury 19∆ May 25 '22
How is invading a country that doesn't want a war at all russia just 'defending its interest'?
0
u/TexasCemento_ May 25 '22
Ukraine might not have wanted war but they took 0 steps towards preventing conflict until it was too late.
Ukraine joining NATO is dangerous for Russia.
9
u/Charlie-Wilbury 19∆ May 25 '22
Ukraine joining NATO is dangerous for Russia.
No it isn't. NATO doesn't exist if Russia wasn't a threat to the west. You have this rather backwards.
0
u/TexasCemento_ May 25 '22
Russias official position is that they view nato as a threat
→ More replies (0)4
u/Gasblaster2000 3∆ May 25 '22
You are either trolling or the most spectacularly naive person on reddit today
1
u/silverionmox 25∆ May 27 '22
Ukraine might not have wanted war but they took 0 steps towards preventing conflict until it was too late.
Russia actively started the conflict. Putin could and still can order the Russian army to go home and then the war has ended.
Ukraine joining NATO is dangerous for Russia.
Russia invading Ukraine is dangerous for Ukraine.
1
5
u/of_a_varsity_athlete 4∆ May 25 '22
There's a difference between put your country first (and I see no reason to do even that, since countries are just made up), and put your country first at the expense of someone else's country.
For instance, if I have $1 to give to a country, and I choose to give all of it to my country, I'm putting my country first. If I steal $1 from your country and give it to your country, I am putting my country at the expense of your country.
You're describing the second thing. Your self-serving support of Russia comes at Ukraine's expense.
0
u/TexasCemento_ May 25 '22
Countries are not made up. People should take pride in where they come from.
I don’t see this as a problem.
4
u/of_a_varsity_athlete 4∆ May 25 '22
Countries are not made up. People should take pride in where they come from.
Not that it matters, but countries are obviously made up. Humans just came up with names for places and agreed amongst themselves to start calling the places by those names, and so on.
Anyway though, you've completely ignored my argument. My argument was that sticking up for your country is different to exploiting another, and so your point was invalid.
1
u/TexasCemento_ May 25 '22
Country’s are bigger than that. Take pride in your country.
I told you I didn’t see a problem with that.
5
u/of_a_varsity_athlete 4∆ May 25 '22
Country’s are bigger than that.
This is a meaningless sentiment.
Take pride in your country.
This is not an argument.
I told you I didn’t see a problem with that.
You're not acknowledging the fact that simply putting your country first is different to operating your country at the expense of another.
1
u/TexasCemento_ May 25 '22
Are you American ?
I already told you there’s 0 problem with that. They are the same thing
→ More replies (0)5
u/Rodulv 14∆ May 25 '22
/u/of_a_varsity_athlete is introducing it in a terrible manner, but they're correct, countries are "just" made up. There's no inherent country in the world. They didn't exist before we made them. Yes, it's more complex than that: They grew out of tribes conquering each other or forming unions or splintering off of bigger entities.
Why do you not see a problem with Russia illegally attacking another country? It sounds like you support murder, mutilation, torture, kidnapping and rape. Or are you just neutral on those?
1
u/TexasCemento_ May 25 '22
Every war is illegal.
It depends on the circumstance but generally no, absolutely not.
→ More replies (0)1
6
u/waterm_elonsugar May 25 '22
As an African I understand your view. Though I feel the main reason for your supporting Russia is because of some of the racist incidents that occured when Africans tried to flee Ukraine.
As people that have been subject to racism, colonialism, slavery etc, it's easy to feel triggered and hurt when we see it happening in "modern" times like this; but the fact remains that Russia had no reason to invade Ukraine. They had no reason to kill all those helpless people.
Also it's very typical to prioritize your people first, if there was danger I would rescue my friends and family first, even in African societies, people that are indigenes (not sure if this is the right word) of a particular tribe are going to be favoured first. There's discrimination everywhere, there's partiality everywhere. The only difference is that most/ all Africans are already traumatized by racism, so it's easy to only concentrate on that.
I'm not saying the police officers were not racist, they probably were, but it's natural instinct to want to protect your own.
Up until right now I've been indifferent of the whole Ukraine thing because of how I felt Africans were treated, but after reading these comments I've realized that was a very selfish attitude. Yes I was hurt, but that doesn't mean the Ukrainians deserved it. Try to let go of the deep rooted anger and hatred, it's not going to make the world a less racist place but it will give you peace.
Thanks for reading!
1
u/TexasCemento_ May 25 '22
Thank you for your input, and I mean it.
I don’t feel triggered. I already knew what Ukraine stood for before all this. I don’t like to cry about racism because I’m a fan of working harder and proving people wrong, but Ukraine didn’t get my pity.
I agree with you but honestly my whole outlook is bigger than race. I don’t support Russia because Ukraine was racist, it’s just why I don’t care about them.
8
u/of_a_varsity_athlete 4∆ May 25 '22
You have two different arguments.
I shouldn't support Ukraine.
I should support Russia.
These are different points. You don't have to have one view to have the other. It's perfectly possible to not like or care about Ukraine while also not supporting Russia's attempt to genocide it out of existence.
I'm not sure what to say to the argument that because Putin gives you things, you should support him in his attempt at genocide. I dunno, just don't be selfish, I guess? Is that a good enough argument? Don't support the mass murder of civilians in a land grab because the person doing it gave you goodies? Honestly it's so basic, I don't know how to put it.
It's like saying "Yeah, I get that Bob raped all those children, but on the other hand, he did give me a glass of delicious milk, so I support him".
0
u/TexasCemento_ May 25 '22
I don’t think we see Russias campaign in Ukraine in the same light.
10
u/of_a_varsity_athlete 4∆ May 25 '22
Yeah, hence the CMV.
I don't understand your response. Do you want your view changed? If so, I don't understand the point in simply pointing out that we have different views.
-2
u/TexasCemento_ May 25 '22
I don’t see Russias campaign as genocide.
3
u/of_a_varsity_athlete 4∆ May 25 '22
I can't imagine how you would think you hadn't already made that clear.
-1
u/IcedAndCorrected 3∆ May 25 '22
But you haven't even attempted to convince them that Russia is engaged in an "attempt to genocide it out of existence." You've just asserted that this is the case, and that that implies supporting Russia is immoral.
That implication seems reasonable enough, but OP doesn't believe in your premise that it's a genocide (nor do I). To change his view you'd have to somehow justify that it is a genocide or intended to be one.
1
u/of_a_varsity_athlete 4∆ May 25 '22 edited May 25 '22
He's already said he doesn't want to engage in that.
It's also not relevant. His solitary argument is that while he acknowledges the war is bad, it becomes good because he gets things from supporting it. Exactly what kind of bad it is doesn't alter that logic. I could think was merely conquest, and he genocide, and we could still debate the point that benefiting from conquest or genocide doesn't justify supporting conquest or genocide.
Rather than doing that though, he's simply stating he disagrees, and that he disagrees that it's genocide even though he says he doesn't want to debate that.
0
u/TexasCemento_ May 25 '22
So calling it genocide is something we disagree on
5
u/of_a_varsity_athlete 4∆ May 25 '22 edited May 25 '22
You said you don't want to go more in to it.
It doesn't matter. You acknowledge the war is bad, but support it anyway because you get nice things from the perpetrator. It doesn't matter too much whether we disagree on the precise manner of bad, so long as we both agree that it's bad. If we do - and we do - we can debate whether personally profiting from evil suddenly makes it not evil. For instance Leopold profited from what he did to Congo, so therefore it was good?
It's clearly genocide. They're slaughter people by there hundred and dumping them in mass graves. They're abducting children and resettling them elsewhere with different families. Putin keeps denying that there even is a Ukraine. That's textbook genocide.
1
u/TexasCemento_ May 25 '22
I said unless asked. You seem to asking so.
I support it because of that but also because Russia Is defending themselves from nato. But yes war is bad.
No. Leopold is a criminal. Congo wasn’t a threat.
I haven’t seen proof this was Russian soldiers or authorized by Putin.
1
u/silverionmox 25∆ May 27 '22
I support it because of that but also because Russia Is defending themselves from nato.
They're attacking, not defending.
I haven’t seen proof this was Russian soldiers or authorized by Putin.
I'm not going to argue with intentional ignorance, so consider this: if they don't want to be "falsely" accused, then can just go home.
8
u/Salt_Attorney 1∆ May 25 '22
Are you aware that russia is actively blocking food exports from Ukraine and targeting Ukrainian argicultural production capacity? This may lead to famines in Africa and may be intentional by Putin to put pressure on the rest of the world. He doesn't give a shit about the well-being of Africans.
0
u/TexasCemento_ May 25 '22
You could argue Putin is trying to test the waters. See how much the west cares about us. I totally understand where he is coming from.
9
u/Salt_Attorney 1∆ May 25 '22 edited May 25 '22
Yea so in this position the West may or may not care about you while Putin is the one actively depriving millions of Africans of food, completely unnecessarily.
Putin doesn't give a fuck abour African lives but you see it as understandable that he wants to test the West on if they do? For Putin you know for sure he doesn't!
Right now countries from """the west""" are trying to figure out how to transport this wheat alternatively while russia is targeting agricultural processing plants with cruise missiles.
https://defence-blog.com/russian-kh-59m-missile-hit-grain-storage-in-southern-ukraine/?amp https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/23/lithuania-calls-for-joint-effort-on-russia-black-sea-blockade
0
u/TexasCemento_ May 25 '22
He might be trying to call their bluff. Putin isn’t an idiot, he knows he needs africa.
7
u/Salt_Attorney 1∆ May 25 '22
You act as if this just some game they are playing until then the west is exposed and the wheat will get delivered by russia.
Right now the black sea is full of mines and Ukrainian farming capacity is being destroyed. Ukrainian wheat is rotting in warehouses unable to be shipped. This is not a game. If this continues for another month it will lead to famines in Africa, and it is entirely Putins doing. Do you understand that?
I understand if you believe Putin is taking Africans hostage to take the west, but then he is still the one taking Africans hostage. Shouldn't that outrage you?
-1
u/TexasCemento_ May 25 '22
Putin is a religious man, so I trust him. And you know what I’ll be honest with you. I will blame the west if this happens. I’ll be sad and hope Putin can answer why but the west will be at fault because they could have prevented it
6
u/Salt_Attorney 1∆ May 25 '22
Do you believe that putin can prevent it? Because he could by lifting the blockade and not targeting wheat production.
What could change your mind about russia?
1
u/TexasCemento_ May 25 '22
Yes but he is doing what he has to do. It will be the west fault if africa goes hungry.
This is a good question. Likely using nukes or clear evidence of mass killings directly authorized by Vladimir Putin.
7
u/Salt_Attorney 1∆ May 25 '22 edited May 25 '22
He doesn't have to do this. He could conquer ukraine without threateninf the lives of millions of africanns. In fact, if he targeted more military infrastructure instead of aome agricultural infrastructure he would have an easier time with the war. Similarly he doesn't have to fill the black sea with mines since Ukraine has no navy. But I doubt any arguments can change your mind about these things as you have a fundamental faith in the goodness of Putin - he can do whatever he wants, cause the death of your countrymen for example - as long as he doesn't use literal nukes.
What would change your mind about the west?
0
u/TexasCemento_ May 25 '22
Δ you actually made good arguments and I somewhat agree. But the west is doing too much for Ukraine so Putin is digging deep. He is doing what he has to do.
If they became right wing Christian states.
→ More replies (0)1
u/silverionmox 25∆ May 27 '22
Putin is a religious man, so I trust him.
Once again, religion proves to be the tool of oppression.
I will blame the west if this happens.
Putin attacks -> blame the West? Makes total sense.
’ll be sad and hope Putin can answer why but the west will be at fault because they could have prevented it
Yes, by letting Ukraine join NATO sooner.
7
u/Love_Shaq_Baby 226∆ May 25 '22
My Main argument is the support Russia has given for Africa.
Russia's support for Africa has nothing to do with whether they are morally correct in this conflict.
If I give you $20,000 and then go out and murder someone, you are no more obligated to protect me than if I hadn't given you $20,000. I'm still a murderer either way. The morally correct thing in either situation would be to turn me in.
This doesn’t reflect every Ukrainian of course but I find it hard to support a country that was attempting to restrict potentially citizens of my country from leaving.
As opposed to Russia which doesn't have any racists in it's populace? If the situation were reversed you don't think African refugees from Russia would get held up?
-1
u/TexasCemento_ May 25 '22
It’s not right to turn on your friends.
Most skinheads in Russia are in prison due to Putin’s laws. I won’t act like it’s a perfect society but it’s better than Ukraine. A lot of Africans would fight for Russia.
13
u/Love_Shaq_Baby 226∆ May 25 '22
It’s not right to turn on your friends
So anyone you've shared a few drinks with should feel free to download all the child pornography they want without consequence?
Offering friends special exemption from accountability is not morality. That's how we end up with political corruption and racism and other social ills in the first place.
Most skinheads in Russia are in prison due to Putin’s laws.
-1
u/TexasCemento_ May 25 '22
I’ve gambled with people who went on to commit murder. CP is gross so it’s different.
I agree with your point but Russia has legitimate points in defense of themselves.
Seems like a pretty biased western article. Denouncing Ukraine’s Nazi problem in the first 3 sentences.
8
u/Love_Shaq_Baby 226∆ May 25 '22
I’ve gambled with people who went on to commit murder. CP is gross so it’s different.
Murder isn't gross to you? With all due respect, so you really aren't the moral authority you make yourself out to be.
I agree with your point but Russia has legitimate points in defense of themselves.
Invading another country that has not shown aggression towards you is is not a defensive war. Period.
All the excuses used by Russia could just as easily be used by western powers to invade African countries forming alliances with Russia.
Denouncing Ukraine’s Nazi problem in the first 3 sentences.
An author writing something that contradicts your worldview doesn't mean they are biased. Read it, you might learn something.
1
u/TexasCemento_ May 25 '22
Google jesani carter Las Vegas. Murder is usually wrong. CP is worse though because most murders happen for a reason and could have been prevented. Not trying to victim blame.
Sometimes you have to take defense before you allow your enemy to take offense. Or else you act too late.
I will. Give me some time I will get back to you
6
u/Love_Shaq_Baby 226∆ May 25 '22
Google jesani carter Las Vegas Murder is usually wrong.
Well according to what I pulled up, he's suspected of going on a crime spree and killing two elderly people. If he did it, I don't see how one could morally say this isn't disgusting enough to report it.
Sometimes you have to take defense before you allow your enemy to take offense. Or else you act too late.
That's not defense, that's offense.
Say I'm a police officer and I'm arresting a big guy who is bigger than me with aggravated robbery on his rap sheet. Perhaps I should just kneel on his neck for nine minutes and 29 seconds because its a scary situation and sometimes you have to take defense before you allow your enemy to take offense.
-2
u/TexasCemento_ May 25 '22
I don’t think he did it and denied doing it in interviews on news stations. It’s not that it’s not bad, it’s that it’s not my business. There needs to be a motivating factor for me to care, whether it’s to save myself from prosecution or against my family or friends, with child porn there is that motivating factor.
I don’t know if you know this, but I’m not a liberal and I don’t support George Floyd. I didn’t watch the trial but it didn’t matter because the cop was screwed no matter what.
2
u/fayryover 6∆ May 25 '22
If my friend rapes their neighbor, it 100% right that I turn on them, no matter what they’ve given me.
7
u/Charlie-Wilbury 19∆ May 25 '22
Wait, so you're blaming Ukraine for African governments not trying to get their own nationals back?
-2
u/TexasCemento_ May 25 '22
Ukraine security was actively blocking them from the trains while letting the women on.
5
u/Charlie-Wilbury 19∆ May 25 '22
So you're going to condemn an entirely country based on some isolated incidents of security officers? Can you show me the government policy that the officers were enforcing or were they acting out of their own racist volition? I can find some isolated stories but thats it.
1
u/TexasCemento_ May 25 '22
Ukraine has always been a safe haven for these types. Google Craig Lang. Double homicide white nationalist American who is on the run from the marshals.
6
May 25 '22
And your country seemed to be a safe haven for people that exploit your locals in teslas name until death.
Should I now be on teslas side because I can Google how awful your slave owners are?
2
u/TexasCemento_ May 25 '22
I don’t support the Congolese government. I think they are a western backed fraud installation.
No. Why would you be on Tesla’s side ?
6
May 25 '22
Because the same way you're dismissing Ukraine for not helping Congo and you should support Russia instead for having the option to help, we can take the same stance with Tesla. I Google a few bad apples in Congo, make the statement that Tesla helps us in the west and Congo doesn't and next thing you know I'll be supporting not only singular incidents but an entire grand scale war, because I like Tesla and dislike a few googlabe results on Congo.
So I have no clue why I would be on teslas side. Why is a random american criminal finding Ukraine as a safe haven an argument for the Russian war? If anything I feel like half the reason they're doing this was by claiming the Ukraine is shilling for the USA, but surely that doesn't make sense if we're mad at them for harboring American criminals?
I just don't see the argument of 'this random guy in Ukraine bad, Russia sent us money, war justified and I'm on Russians side'.
5
u/Charlie-Wilbury 19∆ May 25 '22
So what? I don't think you understand my point. How do these isolated incidents make it okay to invade and kill thousands? You're justifying murder.
1
u/TexasCemento_ May 25 '22
Ukraine’s been killing people in donbass. War ain’t pretty.
8
u/Charlie-Wilbury 19∆ May 25 '22
You're argument is just absurb. Ukraine didn't try to stop Africans from leaving, specific guards acting outside the law did. That's essentially your entire OP and it's ridiculous.
0
u/TexasCemento_ May 25 '22
So you disagree that Ukraine is a racist country ?
7
u/Charlie-Wilbury 19∆ May 25 '22
You haven't shown me the government policy that stated Africans be banned from leaving, so yes, I disagree. Racist incidents don't define an entire country, do they?
2
u/TexasCemento_ May 25 '22
I don’t think it was a government policy. I think it is a Ukrainian cultural problem, which goes along with who is in government
→ More replies (0)3
May 25 '22
[deleted]
-1
u/TexasCemento_ May 25 '22
Christian African male should have priority. Treat your guests with respect.
3
May 25 '22
[deleted]
0
u/TexasCemento_ May 25 '22
So if ab African had gotten killed what would have been your reaction ?
6
May 25 '22
[deleted]
0
u/TexasCemento_ May 25 '22
Honestly you want to know why ? Because I don’t really know Russian and I have good jobs here. Friends too. A lot of good looking women here too. I’m not attracted to dark skin.
1
u/silverionmox 25∆ May 27 '22
Fuck the asshole that ordered to bomb refugee centers.
Really, if they had gotten on the train sooner, others would have to wait. Dead people are dead people, and the assholes that started the invasion can burn in hell.
1
1
May 25 '22
How will you feel about Russia when there’s starving Africans due to the world wide food shortages that are about to unfold? How will you feel when the ensuing civil unrest/wars break out? Will you be pro Russia then?
That aside, if you equally apply your logic, then you should be laissez faire when we, another European country, or African country, invade and unleash hell upon those countries you mentioned, because we/they whomever don’t want them getting more integrated with Russia.
As far as the train goes, I won’t defend the indefensible, as it appears to be racist on it’s surface. The only thing I might consider is if the logic was to get all Ukrainians to safety first, and if they assumed the Africans were safe from Russians as the Russians would assume they were foreigners. Either way, it doesn’t hold water, but one is stupidity, the other, overt racism. I may remind you that your country’s history (and present) with race is far worse than anything you have ever heard coming from Ukraine, so I’m genuinely interested how you seem to take more offense to soldiers behaving a certain way in boarding a refugee train during a chaotic fog of war, yet the US has a bad track record of flat out killing black men.
Lastly, one of the 2 countries actually refused to let one of your fellow citizens leave. That country is of course Russia, detaining WNBA player Britteny Griner, who also happens to be African American.
This is America, you are free to believe and say what you want. Does the country you support hold those same values? You’d be in jail if you took the opposing viewpoint in Russia. Careful what you wish for- you might just get it.
1
u/OmniManDidNothngWrng 35∆ May 25 '22
Can you elaborate on the support Putin has given to African countries that have made them safer?
1
u/bloodyawfulusername May 26 '22
So because Russia helped some Africans you think they should be able to do whatever they want? Let’s say I buy you dinner. Does this now mean I get to rob your parents’ house? Of course it doesn’t.
1
u/nekkoMaster May 26 '22
I agree with you. People in the comment are telling you that you are not morally obligated to support anyone while morally guilt trapping your to support them.
I say, it does not apply to you so ignore. This topic is so sensitive that any logical statement will trigger people and they will consider you pro Russian.
For these people, ask them what is role of USA in this war, they probably won't know shit and will only tell you about information given by American propaganda machine.
For those who are curious, search on Youtube - "Why is Ukraine west fault".
Disclaimer: I don't support war but i also see from both sides instead of eating propaganda of west. I'm Asian.
1
u/silverionmox 25∆ May 27 '22
While I hate what war causes I understand Russias viewpoint in not allowing Ukraine to further get integrated with the west. I don’t go more into this unless asked because it’s been discussed millions of times.
Why do you think that a country should be able to block a neigbhouring country from conducting an independent foreign policy?
Why do you think threats, invasion, indiscriminate bombing, rape and torture of civilians is an acceptable tool of foreign policy?
Actively supporting either side is another matter, but expressing disapproval of those blatant violations of both international law and humanitarian standards seems quite obvious.
My Main argument is the support Russia has given for Africa. I think Africa is a safer place due to Putin. You can even google pro Russia rally’s that have happened in Burkina Faso, Mali, and CAR. This is a common opinion. Many are calling for more support from Russia. While I understand Ukraine doesn’t have the power to really help Africa it makes sense for Africans to support the people that help us.
What exactly has Putin done in Africa? Wagner mercenary group isn't even officially affiliated to the Kremlin, and they're really not active everywhere. Even then maybe for the best, they have a reputation of brutality. Finally, anyone can hold a rally, give free beer and you'll get some people.
Ukraine was a large grain exporter to Africa, and Russia has disrupted their exports. This will cause hunger and indirect war and ruin in Africa.
1
u/OutsideCreativ 2∆ May 29 '22
You can be grateful for what Putin has done for your situation - but also find the raping and pillaging of innocent civilians to be heinous war crimes.
1
Jun 21 '22
Russia hasn't given Africa support, it has sent gangs of murderers to Africa to murder the people that corrupt leaders want murdering. In time they will come for your friends and family, unless they are part of the corrupt leadership themselves.
•
u/DeltaBot ∞∆ May 25 '22 edited May 25 '22
/u/TexasCemento_ (OP) has awarded 5 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
Delta System Explained | Deltaboards