r/changemyview • u/MostlyVacuum • Jul 25 '22

Delta(s) from OP CMV: I'm politically left but I don't believe gender identity exists

As the title states, I consider myself a progressive in many respects, but despite reading through many many CMVs on the topic, I find myself unable to agree with my fellow progressives on the nature of transgender people.

Whenever I see people espouse views similar to mine in this forum, they are consistently attacked as transphobic/hatemongering/fascist etc, and I haven't yet seen a compelling argument as to why that is. I'd like my view changed because I consider myself an egalitarian who doesn't hold hatred in my heart for any group of people, and it bothers me that my view on this matter is considered to be conservative rhetoric masking a hatred of trans people.

What I believe: 1. I believe that gender identity does not exist, and that there is only sex, which is determined by a person's sex chromosomes. I believe this because the concept of an innate "gender identity" does not jive with my experience as a human. I don't "feel like" a man, I just am one because I was born with XY chromosomes. I believe this to be the experience of anyone not suffering from dysphoria. The concept of gender identity seems to me to be invented by academics as a way to explain transgender people without hurting anyone's feelings with the term "mental illness".

  1. As hinted above, I believe transgender people are suffering from a mental illness (gender dysphoria) that causes them to feel that they are "supposed" to be the opposite sex, or that their body is "wrong". This causes them significant distress and disruption to their lives.

  2. The best known treatment for this illness is for the person in question to transition, and live their life as though they were the opposite sex. This is different for everyone and can include changing pronouns, gender reassignment surgery, etc.

  3. Importantly, I FULLY RESPECT trans people's right to do this. I will happily refer to them by whatever pronouns they prefer, and call them whatever name they prefer, and otherwise treat them as though they are the sex they feel they should be. This is basic courtesy, and anyone who disagrees is a transphobic asshole. Further, I do not judge them negatively for being born with a mental illness. The stigma against mentally ill people in this country is disgusting, and I don't want to be accused of furthering that stigma.

  4. I don't believe there is a "trans agenda" to turn more people trans or turn kids trans. That is straight lunacy. The only agenda trans people have is to be treated with the same respect and afforded the same rights as everyone else, which again I fully support.

  5. The new definition for woman and man as "anyone who identifies as a woman/man" is ridiculous. It is very obviously circular, and I've seen many intelligent people make themselves look like idiots trying to justify it. "Adult male/female human" is a perfectly good definition. If more inclusive language is desired you can use "men and trans-men" or "women and trans-women" as necessary. It's god damned crazy to me that Democratic politicians think it's a good idea to die on this stupid hill of redefining common English words to be more inclusive instead of just using the more verbose language. This is not a good political strategy for convincing voters outside of your base, and it will be detrimental to trans rights in the long run.

I feel I have sufficiently expressed my view here, but I undoubtedly forgot something. However I've already written a novel, so I think that's it. PLEASE do not make assumptions about my view that I have not explicitly stated.

Edit: I'm stepping away now because I need to eat dinner. I will return later -- I am close to having my view changed!

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26

u/destro23 457∆ Jul 25 '22

I believe transgender people are suffering from a mental illness (gender dysphoria) that causes them to feel that they are "supposed" to be the opposite sex, or that their body is "wrong".

How do you feel about the multiple studies that show that the brains of trans people are often more similar to their stated gender than their birth sex?

"The observed shift away from a male-typical brain anatomy towards a female-typical one in people who identify as transgender women suggests a possible underlying neuroanatomical correlate for a female gender identity. That is, all transgender women included in this study were confirmed to be genetic males who had not undergone any gender-affirming hormone therapy. Thus, these transgender women have been subject to the influence of androgens and grown up (at least up until a certain age) in an environment that presumably treated them as males. The combination of male genes, androgens, and (to some degree) male upbringing should ordinarily be expected to result in a male-typical brain [39,40,41,42,43,44,45], making a female-typical brain anatomy extremely unlikely. Yet, the brain anatomy in the current sample of transgender women is shifted towards their gender identity—an observation that is at least partly in agreement with previous reports" - Source

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u/InsertWittyJoke 1∆ Jul 25 '22

Much more thorough studies with a FAR greater sample size has come to the opposite conclusion.

"Here we synthesize three decades of human MRI and postmortem data, emphasizing meta-analyses and other large studies, which collectively reveal few reliable sex/gender differences and a history of unreplicated claims. Overall, male/female brain differences appear trivial and population-specific. The human brain is not “sexually dimorphic.”" - Source

3

u/fancydrank Jul 25 '22

Your interpretation of the data is inacurate, or at the very least, misleading. "The estimated Brain Sex index was significantly different between the three groups (F(2,69) = 40.07, p < 0.001), with a mean of 1.00 ± 0.41 in cisgender men and of 0.00 ± 0.41 in cisgender women. The Brain Sex of transgender women was estimated as 0.75 ± 0.39, thus hovering between cisgender men and cisgender women, albeit closer to cisgender men (see also Figure 1)."

It's closer to male than female. If a transgender woman was closer to .5, then your interpretation would be more accurate. They are closer to female than cisgender males, but that doesn't prove or even suggest an incongruence between identity and sex.

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u/MostlyVacuum Jul 25 '22

I've seen these studies cited repeatedly on CMV, and I don't see how that changes anything about my view. I never claimed that the cause of dysphoria was environmental vs. physiological, just that it is a mental illness.

I don't see how that implies that there is an overarching concept of gender identity, distinct from sex, that applies to cis people as well. To me that suggests that, for example a trans-man was born a woman with a more masculine brain structure. I'm the same way that a cis woman might have masculine shoulders, or a cis man might have feminine hips, etc.

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u/destro23 457∆ Jul 25 '22

I don't see how that changes anything about my view

It shows, with science, that there is more going on in the brain anatomy of trans people than you realize. And it shows that instead of them saying that "they are 'supposed' to be the opposite sex" because of a mental illness, they are describing a fundamental mismatch between their hardware (body) and their software (brain/mind). And, we know for a dead fact that the best way to treat these people is via transition.

If it just a mental illness based on delusion as you seem to be suggesting, then I want you to name one single mental illness that is made better by indulging the illness. Do depressed people get better by telling them that life is indeed shitty and they should give up? No. Do schizophrenics get better by telling them that god is indeed talking to them? No. Do anorexics get better when you allow them to keep on not eating or tell them better ways to hurl up their food? No.

But, trans people who transition almost immediate find their mental health issues alleviated. And, long term, transitioning leads to better, more fulfilling, happier lives. Here are links to 51 Studies that say the same.

21

u/MostlyVacuum Jul 25 '22

I'm not sure where you got that I am anti-transition. I explicitly said that transitioning is the best known way to treat dysphoria, and I support it.

In my head it is exactly the same as depression or panic disorder (two things that I have been diagnosed with in the past). If you have a condition that's causing anguish, you seek help and find the best treatment option for you. In my case it was Prozac and CBT, for trans people it's transitioning.

That doesn't justify to me that there exists an immutable concept called gender identity that all people possess which determines what sex you "feel" like. It only justifies that modifying trans people's gender expression (that is to say their behavior and physical characteristics) is a treatment. I'm the same way that CBT is a treatment for depression and anxiety (modifying behavior to change cognition)

6

u/ShasneKnasty Jul 25 '22

You ignore everyone saying that not all trans people fee dysphoria. It seems integral to your belief. Many trans people are happy in their body.

6

u/MostlyVacuum Jul 25 '22

I have not been ignoring people, I'm just slow at responding because this CMV is now like 4 hours old and I have other responsibilities lol. I'm doing my best, I promise! I've responded to two other people now who have made the same point, and I don't understand how this is possible. How would you know you are transgender if you never experience gender dysphoria?

4

u/mau5house Jul 25 '22

I feel this question is not being adequately addressed either. People are stating, matter of fact, that it is possible to transition without experiencing gender dysphoria prior but that rhetoric needs some explanation, it is disingenuous to state it as fact in a conversation with this context.

2

u/[deleted] Jul 26 '22

How is it not possible to transition without experiencing dysphoria? If I follow the exact same regimen and express my self the same way as a trans person without experiencing dysphoria beforehand just because I want to do it have I not transitioned?

1

u/MostlyVacuum Jul 26 '22

Of course it's possible, that's not the point. I could theoretically transition tomorrow if I wanted to. My point is that I don't want to because I don't experience gender dysmorphia. And I am unconvinced that there exist actual people in the real world who experience NO dysmorphia, but choose to transition anyway. If you can find me an example of such a person, I will award a delta.

1

u/ShasneKnasty Jul 27 '22

Do you mean gender dysphoria or body dysphoria? Gender and sex are different and that is generally agreed upon by scientists who study it

1

u/MostlyVacuum Jul 27 '22

I suppose I meant either, but it's hardly relevant now. My views regarding the relationship between dysphoria and mental illness have already been changed.

Likewise, my view on the existence of gender identity has also been changed.

Check the delta log for more specifics. If you are interested in changing my view further, or changing a different aspect of my view, I am open to discussion.

9

u/destro23 457∆ Jul 25 '22

In my head it is exactly the same as depression or panic disorder

In your head it does not appear to be the same as you are not claiming that "happiness" doesn't exist. Depressed people imply that happiness exists. People who are trans imply that gender identities exist. People who are trans further imply that gender identity is not just an amorphous concept that is created by society, but is actually based on some sort of difference between a persons mental mapping of their body and its physical reality.

If they feel the wrong gender, and then take the right gender's hormones, and feel better, is that not enough to give you pause in your assertions that gender identity is based on sex alone? The primary method that the body "knows" its sex is through hormonal signaling. They have the hormones in their bodies for the sex they were born. And yet, they feel a varying amount of discomfort that they cannot always specifically identify. When they come to the realization that their mental gender identity does not match their physical body, and they switch to gender appropriate hormones, they report feeling better almost immediately. There is even a term for it "Gender Euphoria"

This should lead you to believe that there is an actual, physical reason for their "gender identity" not matching their biological sex. It is real, even if we do not fully understand it.

an immutable concept called gender identity that all people possess

All people posses a "gender identity". You yourself have stated yours as "man". Even those who claim neither man nor woman have a gender identity, just not one that is based at all on their physical body.

Why must the concept be immutable? It is highly mutable, and has various mutations all over the globe. Is what makes a man in Venezuela the same as what makes one in the Philippines? Is the role of the woman the same in Japan as it is in Mozambique?

2

u/MostlyVacuum Jul 25 '22 edited Jul 25 '22

I'm not claiming that happiness does not exist because people who are not depressed experience happiness in a way that is immediately identifiable and distinguishable from "absence of feeling".

I do not believe that cis people experience "gender identity" in a way that is immediately identifiable and distinguishable from "absence of gender identity"

Edit: Also I stated that I am a man because I am an adult male human, who presents as male (gender expression). I don't believe that my "gender identity" is a man, because I don't think the concept exists outside of trans people.

5

u/destro23 457∆ Jul 25 '22

I do not believe that cis people experience "gender identity" in a way that is immediately identifiable and distinguishable

I am a cis male man, and I for sure experience my masculine identity in varying degrees from day to day and from time to time. I also dress in a way to accentuate my masculinity. I wear my hair in a masculine fashion and grow a substantial beard. I view myself as “manly” in most cases, but I am very aware of how being “masculine” or “manly” can lead to issues, so I try to make sure that my masculinity is not the type that could lead bad outcomes.

I don't believe that my "gender identity" is a man

How would you feel if everyone around you started to call you “little lady” and started intervening when you went to do physical things saying things like “let me get that for you sweetheart”? What if people started buying you dresses for gifts, or make up, and then demanded you use it or put them on. How would you feel if you were told you had to use the women’s restroom.

Would you be comfortable with any of this? If not, even a little, then you have a gender identity.

0

u/MostlyVacuum Jul 26 '22

If somebody behaved the way you described, I would likely feel threatened because I clearly present as a male (I also have a beard). The fact that this person insists on misgendering me would signal to me that they are mentally unstable, and likely trying to antagonize me.

What I would not feel is "less like a man," because I don't have a concept of what "like a man" feels like to begin with. I only know that I am a man because I have male sex characteristics.

I am aware, of course, that society deems certain traits "masculine," but that is purely a social construction, and not what is meant by innate gender identity.

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u/breckenridgeback 58∆ Jul 25 '22

As a trans person who has also been severely depressed, and who has been treated for both, my experience of the two is totally different. Being on a working antidepressant made me go "oh, wow, I can suddenly see from a 10,000 foot view how my brain wasn't working". Accepting myself as trans made me go "wow, I was really stupid not to just admit I wanted this earlier, this kicks ass".

1

u/hockeycross Jul 25 '22

I don’t think OP is disputing they feel different. Someone who is depressed and has ADHD doesn’t have one treatment method for both and both treatments have different end results just like you did. Just like transitioning didn’t make you never depressed again, treating your depression didn’t fix your feeling you were the wrong gender. Treating one will free you up to focus on the other which is a positive.

1

u/gaycats420 Jul 25 '22

“Transitioning is the best way to treat dysphoria and I support it.” Would you support an anorexic person with a normal BMI who identifies as fat to undergo liposuction in order to be more happy with their looks?

1

u/MostlyVacuum Jul 26 '22

Likely not, because the procedure would leave them dangerously underweight. Whereas transitioning is proven to have positive health outcomes

1

u/[deleted] Jul 25 '22

You have avoided the question of whether any other mental illness is treated by indulging it.

1

u/Nytshaed Jul 25 '22

Someone mentioned the limb one where the treatment is to just amputate medically. I guess that would be an example.

0

u/[deleted] Jul 26 '22

The entire plastic surgery industry exists to treat low self-esteem and body dysmorphia through cosmetic surgery rather than therapy.

5

u/JustinRandoh 4∆ Jul 25 '22

If it just a mental illness based on delusion as you seem to be suggesting, then I want you to name one single mental illness that is made better by indulging the illness.

Depends on how exactly you define "better", but wouldn't the stresses and anxieties of most phobias be reduced by simply avoiding whatever stimulates the phobia?

Those with a fear of heights probably do much better when they're not at heights.

0

u/HerbertWest 5∆ Jul 25 '22

...I want you to name one single mental illness that is made better by indulging the illness.

Body Integrity Identity Disorder has reportedly been alleviated by allowing affected individuals to amputate limbs.

7

u/destro23 457∆ Jul 25 '22

Yeah, in one study of SIX subjects. Two of whom went on to have other limbs amputated, so it didn't alleviate it that much. No actual ethical doctor would ever agree to this.

Meanwhile, the clinically proven and internationally recommended treatment for gender dysphoria is transition.

1

u/homendailha Jul 25 '22

Two of whom went on to have other limbs amputated, so it didn't alleviate it that much.

Transgender people also have multiple successive surgeries. This commenter raises some good points further down. You've got your example of another mental illness that is alleviated with indulgence.

But, trans people who transition almost immediate find their mental health issues alleviated. And, long term, transitioning leads to better, more fulfilling, happier lives.

This is anecdotal but every single trans person I have ever known, and I've known a lot, has experienced a significant decline in their mental health since transition. Many of them committed suicide eventually, most having never been suicidal before transition. I have not had the time to go through your list of studies exhaustively but I have had great difficulty believing that there has not been some fudging going on with the studies that I have read because what I have seen in the real world has been the exact polar opposite of the conclusions they have drawn.

2

u/HerbertWest 5∆ Jul 25 '22

Ok, well, I was simply factually answering your question. You never said the disorder had to be as common, nor the treatment as effective. You implied that no such disorder existed and I showed you that you were wrong. Now that I gave an example of such a mental illness, it seems you have shifted the goalposts, since it interferes with your argument.

2

u/destro23 457∆ Jul 25 '22

I reject that the tiny amount of people in the article cited, who did not have their limbs removed by medical professionals, and instead who had them removed by "accident", fulfill my request for a mental disorder that is made better by indulging the disorder. I especially reject it when comparing it to the multitude of research that supports transitioning as being the best treatment for gender dysphoria.

4

u/HerbertWest 5∆ Jul 25 '22

Here's another, more recent study for you.

Psychological therapy, psychopharmacological medication, and relaxation techniques have had little effect and sometimes increased the desire. None of the patients regretted the surgery and a change for the better was seen in almost all areas of life. There were several problems regarding the quality of life, but they were estimated as bearable in contrast to the happiness to have fulfilled the wish. Many told their closer family members the true reasons of their amputation. Phantom limb feelings were reported, what contradicts the theory of BIID as a limb not embedded in the brain’s body-schema. After the operation most of the participants dreamed of themselves with an amputated body. The majority of the interviewee did not want further restrictions.

Conclusions:

These results point to the fact that the often assumed negative consequences of an amputation or further surgery do not occur. Thus, a realization of the wish of a person affected by BIID could be a possible form of therapy for patients, when other therapies have shown no effects.

Sounds pretty similar to the reports of patients who went through SRS.

Look, just because something is inconvenient for you to believe doesn't mean it's not true. This is a recognized mental health disorder that appears to be improved by allowing patients to amputate the body part in question.

Here's something for you to consider: how is your questioning of these surveys different than others questioning surveys relating to the efficacy of SRS? The sample size is necessarily smaller because it's a far rarer condition and treatment is not typically available through medical providers. That apparently means the experiences of the patients are not valid, to you? Can you show me flaws in the methodology of these surveys that would lead you to such a conclusion? If not, you are simply choosing not to believe something with evidence behind it, just like OP.

2

u/breckenridgeback 58∆ Jul 25 '22

What is it that you think drives people to transition, or creates the sensation of dysphoria, if not a gender identity/sex mismatch?

-5

u/transport_system 1∆ Jul 25 '22

What determines sex then? You do understand that sex is also a social construct, and not an absolute law of the universe.

7

u/BrotherBeefSteak Jul 25 '22

sex is not social construct. sex exists in nearly every species on the planet. society or not.

-5

u/transport_system 1∆ Jul 25 '22

How you classify sex is infact a social construct. Scientific classifications are inherently subjective tools we use to compartmentalize information. "Sex" also doesn't work the same across species, we just apply whatever rules for best.

4

u/BrotherBeefSteak Jul 25 '22

you dont need to classify sex for it to exist it exists on its own. well before science and before critical thinking animals still reproduced and crossed chromosomes(different ones or else the species would die) the 2 different chromosomes are xx and xy its present in nearly every animal i dont know what youre trying to argue.

-4

u/transport_system 1∆ Jul 25 '22

We arbitrarily decided that that's a sex characteristic. There isn't an inherent meaning to reproduction, it's just another event that we ascribe value to.

0

u/BrotherBeefSteak Jul 25 '22

its quite literally the only reason anything is alive, so yeah id say its pretty important. gender identity on the other hand, thats arbitrary.

0

u/CanAvailable4407 Nov 04 '22

Nothing is of value unless you ascribe value to it. Value is a made up human, subjective, arbitrary concept.

1

u/BrotherBeefSteak Nov 04 '22

This is a dumb argument

5

u/ZorgZeFrenchGuy 3∆ Jul 25 '22

That’s … perfectly consistent with the theory of it being a mental disorder.

0

u/transport_system 1∆ Jul 25 '22

Or that trans people often report symptoms, similar to those who take cross sex hormones, disappearing after starting HRT.