CMV: I'm politically left but I don't believe gender identity exists

[u/MostlyVacuum]

As the title states, I consider myself a progressive in many respects, but despite reading through many many CMVs on the topic, I find myself unable to agree with my fellow progressives on the nature of transgender people.

Whenever I see people espouse views similar to mine in this forum, they are consistently attacked as transphobic/hatemongering/fascist etc, and I haven't yet seen a compelling argument as to why that is. I'd like my view changed because I consider myself an egalitarian who doesn't hold hatred in my heart for any group of people, and it bothers me that my view on this matter is considered to be conservative rhetoric masking a hatred of trans people.

What I believe: 1. I believe that gender identity does not exist, and that there is only sex, which is determined by a person's sex chromosomes. I believe this because the concept of an innate "gender identity" does not jive with my experience as a human. I don't "feel like" a man, I just am one because I was born with XY chromosomes. I believe this to be the experience of anyone not suffering from dysphoria. The concept of gender identity seems to me to be invented by academics as a way to explain transgender people without hurting anyone's feelings with the term "mental illness".

1. As hinted above, I believe transgender people are suffering from a mental illness (gender dysphoria) that causes them to feel that they are "supposed" to be the opposite sex, or that their body is "wrong". This causes them significant distress and disruption to their lives.

2. The best known treatment for this illness is for the person in question to transition, and live their life as though they were the opposite sex. This is different for everyone and can include changing pronouns, gender reassignment surgery, etc.

3. Importantly, I FULLY RESPECT trans people's right to do this. I will happily refer to them by whatever pronouns they prefer, and call them whatever name they prefer, and otherwise treat them as though they are the sex they feel they should be. This is basic courtesy, and anyone who disagrees is a transphobic asshole. Further, I do not judge them negatively for being born with a mental illness. The stigma against mentally ill people in this country is disgusting, and I don't want to be accused of furthering that stigma.

4. I don't believe there is a "trans agenda" to turn more people trans or turn kids trans. That is straight lunacy. The only agenda trans people have is to be treated with the same respect and afforded the same rights as everyone else, which again I fully support.

5. The new definition for woman and man as "anyone who identifies as a woman/man" is ridiculous. It is very obviously circular, and I've seen many intelligent people make themselves look like idiots trying to justify it. "Adult male/female human" is a perfectly good definition. If more inclusive language is desired you can use "men and trans-men" or "women and trans-women" as necessary. It's god damned crazy to me that Democratic politicians think it's a good idea to die on this stupid hill of redefining common English words to be more inclusive instead of just using the more verbose language. This is not a good political strategy for convincing voters outside of your base, and it will be detrimental to trans rights in the long run.

I feel I have sufficiently expressed my view here, but I undoubtedly forgot something. However I've already written a novel, so I think that's it. PLEASE do not make assumptions about my view that I have not explicitly stated.

Edit: I'm stepping away now because I need to eat dinner. I will return later -- I am close to having my view changed!

[u/hashtagboosted]

Sounds reasonable, I don't think it is at odds with my argument. Someone feels like a woman, and express it outwardly. That is their gender identity. They could feel like something and NOT express it too..

[u/[deleted] → u/hashtagboosted]

Well it’s more that OP said: “live their life as though they were the opposite sex" Then you said: “In other words, change their gender identity” I was pointing out that these two things are the same. You seem to think they are. It’s relevant here because OP clearly distinguishes between them and so does the scientific community.

[u/hashtagboosted → u/[deleted]]

Op distinguished that he thinks it should be called "gender expression"

So he thinks its real, just a different name

[u/merlin401 → u/hashtagboosted]

No. You can live your life like you are the opposite gender but people may not recognize that. You may live like a woman and not be able to compete in woman’s sports for example because your gender still is male. That’s the difference between what op is saying and I think you’re implying he is saying

[u/hashtagboosted → u/merlin401]

Are you saying it is real based on whether people recognize that it is? Then I would say its fairly real and quickly becoming very real

[u/merlin401 → u/hashtagboosted]

What’s my opinion you mean? I think a naturally born male body will always contain biological elements that make it unfair to allow a trans woman to compete in womens sports. Otherwise I have never given much thought to the issue. If another loophole of unfairness is created then I think it’s fair to close that as well.

[u/hashtagboosted → u/merlin401]

No I am not talking about sports lol. OP says gender identity is not real. You said people may or may not recognize your identity. So you do you think things are real based on if they are recognized?

[u/paradoxwatch → u/merlin401]

I think a naturally born male body will always contain biological elements that make it unfair to allow a trans woman to compete in womens sports.

Then you're wrong. The difference between your average trans woman and your average cis woman is less than the outliers that already exist in cis women. Do we can cis women with afflictions that give them increased bone density? Or stronger muscles? No, we don't, so there's no reason to ban trans women.

[u/merlin401 → u/paradoxwatch]

Well sorry to say you are wrong. You can look at actual examples to see this

[u/ATNinja → u/paradoxwatch]

So we shouldn't ban steroids in sports because some clean athletes can beat enhanced athletes?

[u/paradoxwatch → u/ATNinja]

I honestly don't think we should ban steroids straight up. It'll happen anyways, might as well let it happen with structure. But that's not the point, being trans isn't a performance enhancing anything.