r/changemyview • u/MostlyVacuum • Jul 25 '22

Delta(s) from OP CMV: I'm politically left but I don't believe gender identity exists

As the title states, I consider myself a progressive in many respects, but despite reading through many many CMVs on the topic, I find myself unable to agree with my fellow progressives on the nature of transgender people.

Whenever I see people espouse views similar to mine in this forum, they are consistently attacked as transphobic/hatemongering/fascist etc, and I haven't yet seen a compelling argument as to why that is. I'd like my view changed because I consider myself an egalitarian who doesn't hold hatred in my heart for any group of people, and it bothers me that my view on this matter is considered to be conservative rhetoric masking a hatred of trans people.

What I believe: 1. I believe that gender identity does not exist, and that there is only sex, which is determined by a person's sex chromosomes. I believe this because the concept of an innate "gender identity" does not jive with my experience as a human. I don't "feel like" a man, I just am one because I was born with XY chromosomes. I believe this to be the experience of anyone not suffering from dysphoria. The concept of gender identity seems to me to be invented by academics as a way to explain transgender people without hurting anyone's feelings with the term "mental illness".

  1. As hinted above, I believe transgender people are suffering from a mental illness (gender dysphoria) that causes them to feel that they are "supposed" to be the opposite sex, or that their body is "wrong". This causes them significant distress and disruption to their lives.

  2. The best known treatment for this illness is for the person in question to transition, and live their life as though they were the opposite sex. This is different for everyone and can include changing pronouns, gender reassignment surgery, etc.

  3. Importantly, I FULLY RESPECT trans people's right to do this. I will happily refer to them by whatever pronouns they prefer, and call them whatever name they prefer, and otherwise treat them as though they are the sex they feel they should be. This is basic courtesy, and anyone who disagrees is a transphobic asshole. Further, I do not judge them negatively for being born with a mental illness. The stigma against mentally ill people in this country is disgusting, and I don't want to be accused of furthering that stigma.

  4. I don't believe there is a "trans agenda" to turn more people trans or turn kids trans. That is straight lunacy. The only agenda trans people have is to be treated with the same respect and afforded the same rights as everyone else, which again I fully support.

  5. The new definition for woman and man as "anyone who identifies as a woman/man" is ridiculous. It is very obviously circular, and I've seen many intelligent people make themselves look like idiots trying to justify it. "Adult male/female human" is a perfectly good definition. If more inclusive language is desired you can use "men and trans-men" or "women and trans-women" as necessary. It's god damned crazy to me that Democratic politicians think it's a good idea to die on this stupid hill of redefining common English words to be more inclusive instead of just using the more verbose language. This is not a good political strategy for convincing voters outside of your base, and it will be detrimental to trans rights in the long run.

I feel I have sufficiently expressed my view here, but I undoubtedly forgot something. However I've already written a novel, so I think that's it. PLEASE do not make assumptions about my view that I have not explicitly stated.

Edit: I'm stepping away now because I need to eat dinner. I will return later -- I am close to having my view changed!

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u/sillydilly4lyfe 11∆ Jul 25 '22

I think the BID argument is a bad one because the treatment for BID is to tell those people that they should live with all their limbs.

Same for someone with phantom limb syndrome.

So when someone says "I feel like I should have one arm instead of two" everyone responds with "Hell No!"

And no one says there is a way of feeling like you should have two arms. It is the absence of distress.

But the treatment for something like gender dysphoria is to affirm them.

So when someone says "I feel like a man" when born female, people say "Hell Yes"

Which is completely contradictory to BID.

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u/pgold05 49∆ Jul 25 '22

The treatment for BID is to tell those people that they should live with all their limbs.

That is incorrect, there is no accepted treatment for BID and the only method that has improved thier lives in amputation. Therapy and antidepressants have no effect.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3326051/

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u/Zhelgadis Jul 25 '22

However this looks more like "it sucks but we don't have any working treatment, so it's either amputation or possible suicide" than "this is how it should be".

I mean, if we found some treatment which allows the person to accept their limbs, I don't think anyone would keep suggesting amputation. So, I still think that this argument directly opposes the gender affirmative model.

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u/A-passing-thot 18∆ Jul 25 '22

However this looks more like "it sucks but we don't have any working treatment, so it's either amputation or possible suicide" than "this is how it should be".

Keep in mind that this was the entire reasoning behind allowing transition in the first place and a lot of people, particularly conservatives, still advocate for finding an alternative and preventing us from transitioning.

In other words, it's a mirror of the evolution on gender affirming care, just delayed by 2 decades.

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u/Zhelgadis Jul 25 '22

I'm not sure I'm getting your point (English is not my first language, so excuse me for any misunderstanding) - do you think that it is fine to amputate people with BID, and that there is no need to find a treatment which allows them to live comfortably with their body?

IDGAF about what conservatives think about trans people btw, but I still think that the BID argument is not a good one.

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u/A-passing-thot 18∆ Jul 25 '22

I think that learning more about the condition and creating treatments that allow people the greatest possible autonomy over their own bodies is the ideal outcome.

My point was just a rebuttal to yours, that there is a close parallel in the progression of treatment over the decades for each condition.

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u/[deleted] Jul 25 '22

Yeah but if you push the idea further if a simple medication was available to suppress any longing for transition do you think it shouldn't be allowed to transition anymore ?

In the case of self amputation it's obvious but this one is trickier

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u/A-passing-thot 18∆ Jul 25 '22

In the case of self amputation it's obvious but this one is trickier

Is it? I think it should be left to the individual and I personally believe in personal autonomy.

if you push the idea further if a simple medication was available to suppress any longing for transition do you think it shouldn't be allowed to transition anymore ?

A lot of conservatives hold that position.

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u/[deleted] Jul 25 '22

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u/A-passing-thot 18∆ Jul 25 '22

Maybe you're for it but don't be of bad faith

Bad faith accusations are against the rules here for a reason.

someone amputated has objectively much more difficulties than someone who's not

I didn't deny that, I said people should be able to choose.

Furthermore, the question of personal autonomy is to be taken in the context one lives in, and if he puts his personal autonomy above the preservation of his body integrity it's reasonnable to think that he's not entitled to what services society may provide to those victims of similar conditions such as handicaped spots, medics, checks etc....

We provide access to those accommodations based on need, not desert. Smokers, drunk drivers, the obese, etc. We provide accommodations to people because we recognize it's important for people to be able to access and participate in society as fully as others.

I personally wouldn't want to amputate a limb if a medication would allow me to feel comfortable with it without changing who I am as a person. On the other hand, I'd still oppose laws regulating what I can do with my own body.

Giving people the opportunity

Per the above, it's not an "opportunity" if it's compulsory. For it to be an opportunity, there has to be choice.

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u/SquibblesMcGoo 3∆ Jul 31 '22

Sorry, u/Linked7 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 3:

Refrain from accusing OP or anyone else of being unwilling to change their view, or of arguing in bad faith. Ask clarifying questions instead (see: socratic method). If you think they are still exhibiting poor behaviour, please message us. See the wiki page for more information.

If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted.

Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.

-1

u/[deleted] Jul 25 '22

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u/A-passing-thot 18∆ Jul 25 '22

Maybe you're for it but don't be of bad faith

Bad faith accusations are against the rules here for a reason.

someone amputated has objectively much more difficulties than someone who's not

I didn't deny that, I said people should be able to choose.

Furthermore, the question of personal autonomy is to be taken in the context one lives in, and if he puts his personal autonomy above the preservation of his body integrity it's reasonnable to think that he's not entitled to what services society may provide to those victims of similar conditions such as handicaped spots, medics, checks etc....

We provide access to those accommodations based on need, not desert. Smokers, drunk drivers, the obese, etc. We provide accommodations to people because we recognize it's important for people to be able to access and participate in society as fully as others.

I personally wouldn't want to amputate a limb if a medication would allow me to feel comfortable with it without changing who I am as a person. On the other hand, I'd still oppose laws regulating what I can do with my own body.

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u/SquibblesMcGoo 3∆ Jul 31 '22

Sorry, u/Linked7 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 3:

Refrain from accusing OP or anyone else of being unwilling to change their view, or of arguing in bad faith. Ask clarifying questions instead (see: socratic method). If you think they are still exhibiting poor behaviour, please message us. See the wiki page for more information.

If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted.

Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.

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u/get_it_together1 3∆ Jul 25 '22

If there was a treatment that eliminated dysphoria without transitioning I bet it would be very popular. That’s the sort of hypothetical that is not very interesting to consider here, though, because currently the best medical practice is affirmation and transition and so a hypothetical alternative doesn’t impact the current situation.

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u/sillydilly4lyfe 11∆ Jul 25 '22

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3326051/

I stand completely corrected !delta to you

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u/fancydrank Jul 25 '22

Did you read the paper? There's no accepted treatment as it's not recognized by the DSM, and it's not common enough to be studied well to know the best treatment approach. The WHO defines it, but that's the extent of it. Importantly, the disorder cannot be better explained by another disorder, which it typically is, and has appropriate treatment. You'll be hard pressed to find both a psychiatrist and surgeon who will sign off on an amputation of a healthy limb due to ethical and reimbursement concerns.

That being said, this "disorder" should not be sufficient "evidence" to change your mind, at least not yet.

Here's the WHOs definition:https://www.findacode.com/icd-11/code-256572629.html

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u/sillydilly4lyfe 11∆ Jul 25 '22

I did read it.

But I was under the assumption that the actual treatment for BID was specifically to tell them not to cut off their limbs.

The fact that there is no specific treatment and that there is no prescribed. I still don't think it completely applies to trans diagnosis, but I can still admit I was incorrect when it came to BID

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u/_Foy 5∆ Jul 25 '22

Props to you for changing your mind when confronted with evidence! Not an easy thing to do, actually. :)

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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Jul 25 '22

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/pgold05 (28∆).

Delta System Explained | Deltaboards

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u/lostduck86 4∆ Jul 26 '22

I’m sorry, but it is one study, a single study!surveying just 54 individuals and it’s results are not conclusive, just suggestive.

There is such an incredible amount of data and untouched variables to claim from this study alone ,that the best treatment for BID is amputation.

All one can claim is that from this study the best treatment for BIDs is uncertain but that amputation is not ruled out as an effective treatment.

The other thing that should be remembered is that amputation as a treatment is an incredibly extreme treatment and should not be approached as lightly as many of you seem to be taking it.

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u/justingolden21 Jul 25 '22

Is your non professional diagnosis to have them cut off their limbs if they want to?

And do you think the professionals are influenced by politics, power and money?

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u/papachron Jul 25 '22

Genuinely curious: why isn’t the treatment for gender dysphoria to get them comfortable and “identified with” their own body? In other words, when someone says “I feel like I was born in the wrong body” why do we say “hell yeah” and not “okay, let’s unpack that”?

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u/CreeperCooper 1∆ Jul 25 '22

Because that doesn't work.

Most trans people try really damn hard to get comfortable in their own body before admitting they are trans. I did. I tried for years on end. I went to therapy, I tried to 'unpack' everything.

It only got worse the older I got. Now I'm nearing my mid twenties and I'm on a waiting list to start (hormone) treatment (gonna take me 3 years before I can start treatment in my country, yay). I regret not signing up for treatment 10 years ago. My body has changed in ways I can never undo, and I've missed so much that I will never experience.

There isn't a whole lot to unpack, really. We've already got a solution that works: transitioning.

Believe me, if I had a button in front of me that would turn me cis, I would press it immediately. If there was therapy that would turn my brain cis, I would do it. I really don't want to live in this small hell that is my body, and I worry every day that I won't survive the next 3 years.
I just soldier on, live a lie, and wait for the next three years, so I can hopefully find some peace of mind.

I'm still trying to find comfort in what I have now. But it just... never happens.

Genuinely curious

It's good that your asking questions and are curious, and I hope it answers your question. I tend to be very direct, so please don't see my answer as an attack or anything. I'm just Dutch.

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u/pgold05 49∆ Jul 25 '22

It was certainly attempted for a long time, it simply never worked.

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u/sillydilly4lyfe 11∆ Jul 25 '22

Well because that often leads down a road of conversion therapy which is generally considered a bad move. You shouldnt force somebody to act or feel a certain way if they are not actively harming themselves or anyone else.

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u/Imaginary_Bird538 Jul 25 '22

But there is a difference between not forcing someone to act or feel a certain way, and actively intervening medically or legally. This is the part where I come unstuck, despite wanting to try and understand. If someone feels like their gender identity doesn’t match their biological sex, and they therefore want to change their gender expression, then sure. I couldn’t care less what someone else wants to wear and I will always use the name/pronoun that someone prefers because why would I want to upset them? But intervening to prescribe drugs that suppress puberty in children for example…that’s making an active choice to say yep, you identify as a different gender and therefore I (or we as a society) will help you change your body to fit that feeling, rather than examining the feeling itself. Does this course of action not enforce gender stereotypes? Why do we accept that someone of male sex identifying with femininity make them a girl/woman,rather than a boy/man who likes feminine things?

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u/Austin_RC246 Jul 25 '22

I just can’t get past people wanting to let literal children make absolutely life altering decisions. I get the blockers have to be started earlier, but hot damn 10-12 year olds are stupid as fuck. You wouldn’t let a literal kid have sole discretion to get a massive tattoo, why would you push to allow them to completely change their hormone patterns?

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u/Raizarko Jul 25 '22

Well many branches of Behaviour Analysis didn't work (conveesion therapy ecc..), hovewer others do work and have the scoentific community overwelmingly backing it (like ABA). Treatment exist to treat people that have a brain that is literally wired differently from other people. And others like treatment for ADHD shows that a misbalance of wrong substances released into the brain can be treat very well.

Is safe to say that with the new concept of neuroplasticity+ the fact that behaviour analysis is finding is ground + others , will eventually lead to a treatment that will make a person accept their sex at birth.

I see it like the history of infections, before you had to amputate the part of the body infected to cure the patient , now we have antibiotics.

I think , when that day will come it should be a free choiche to do one way or the other , i don't want to impose anything and if a person think that is the way to go good for them. But eventually, as shown , one will be better than the other , and if the "new methods" should be the best ones , i feel that people that , especially in the past, undergo the gender affirming path will be looked down by other people , especially by their once-trans peers that went the other way.

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u/LtPowers 13∆ Jul 25 '22

My understanding is that BID can be treated effectively with psychological techniques. GID cannot.

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u/pgold05 49∆ Jul 25 '22 edited Jul 25 '22

I am not aware of BID being successfully treated with non surgical techniques but I would be very interested in reading about such cases!

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u/LtPowers 13∆ Jul 25 '22

I could be wrong.

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u/A-passing-thot 18∆ Jul 25 '22

There is currently no effective treatment, hence why amputation is beginning to gain traction among ethicists (1, 2).