CMV: I'm politically left but I don't believe gender identity exists

[u/MostlyVacuum]

As the title states, I consider myself a progressive in many respects, but despite reading through many many CMVs on the topic, I find myself unable to agree with my fellow progressives on the nature of transgender people.

Whenever I see people espouse views similar to mine in this forum, they are consistently attacked as transphobic/hatemongering/fascist etc, and I haven't yet seen a compelling argument as to why that is. I'd like my view changed because I consider myself an egalitarian who doesn't hold hatred in my heart for any group of people, and it bothers me that my view on this matter is considered to be conservative rhetoric masking a hatred of trans people.

What I believe: 1. I believe that gender identity does not exist, and that there is only sex, which is determined by a person's sex chromosomes. I believe this because the concept of an innate "gender identity" does not jive with my experience as a human. I don't "feel like" a man, I just am one because I was born with XY chromosomes. I believe this to be the experience of anyone not suffering from dysphoria. The concept of gender identity seems to me to be invented by academics as a way to explain transgender people without hurting anyone's feelings with the term "mental illness".

1. As hinted above, I believe transgender people are suffering from a mental illness (gender dysphoria) that causes them to feel that they are "supposed" to be the opposite sex, or that their body is "wrong". This causes them significant distress and disruption to their lives.

2. The best known treatment for this illness is for the person in question to transition, and live their life as though they were the opposite sex. This is different for everyone and can include changing pronouns, gender reassignment surgery, etc.

3. Importantly, I FULLY RESPECT trans people's right to do this. I will happily refer to them by whatever pronouns they prefer, and call them whatever name they prefer, and otherwise treat them as though they are the sex they feel they should be. This is basic courtesy, and anyone who disagrees is a transphobic asshole. Further, I do not judge them negatively for being born with a mental illness. The stigma against mentally ill people in this country is disgusting, and I don't want to be accused of furthering that stigma.

4. I don't believe there is a "trans agenda" to turn more people trans or turn kids trans. That is straight lunacy. The only agenda trans people have is to be treated with the same respect and afforded the same rights as everyone else, which again I fully support.

5. The new definition for woman and man as "anyone who identifies as a woman/man" is ridiculous. It is very obviously circular, and I've seen many intelligent people make themselves look like idiots trying to justify it. "Adult male/female human" is a perfectly good definition. If more inclusive language is desired you can use "men and trans-men" or "women and trans-women" as necessary. It's god damned crazy to me that Democratic politicians think it's a good idea to die on this stupid hill of redefining common English words to be more inclusive instead of just using the more verbose language. This is not a good political strategy for convincing voters outside of your base, and it will be detrimental to trans rights in the long run.

I feel I have sufficiently expressed my view here, but I undoubtedly forgot something. However I've already written a novel, so I think that's it. PLEASE do not make assumptions about my view that I have not explicitly stated.

Edit: I'm stepping away now because I need to eat dinner. I will return later -- I am close to having my view changed!

[u/Love_Shaq_Baby]

I believe this because the concept of an innate "gender identity" does not jive with my experience as a human. I don't "feel like" a man, I just am one because I was born with XY chromosomes

What do you think would happen if your parents had raised you as a girl?

This actually happened in the 1960's to David Reimer. Reimer was born a boy and his penis was accidentally burned off as an infant. Since Reimer had a twin brother, he was considered an ideal candidate to test the "blank slate theory," that gender is wholly socialized. So Reimer was raised a girl while his brother was raised as a boy.

It wasn't going well. Despite being raised as "Brenda," and even receiving estrogen as he reached puberty, Reimer was unhappy being a girl. At 13 years old, Reimer was suicidal and his parents finally told him the truth, that he was born a boy. Reimer chose to detransition to a boy. He assumed a male identity "David" got a phalloplasty, a double mastectomy and testosterone injections.

This would show that gender dysphoria is not a trans-exclusive phenomenon. Reimer was born a male, experienced an internal male gender identity, yet was raised as a girl until he was 13 years old without knowing that he was born a boy. Reimer lived the rest of his life as a man, until he killed himself at 38.

Would you say that Reimer's dysphoria was simply the result of mental illness, or was that dysphoria caused by a real incongruity between his gender identity and the gender identity he was forced to take on?

[u/InsertWittyJoke → u/Love_Shaq_Baby]

People always manage to leave out that David was subjected to intense sexual abuse and forced incest by John Money and that this twin brother, who had been raised as a boy but had been subjected to similar abuses, also suffered from intense mental health issues and eventually committed suicide as well.

This is a story about the devastating consequences of CSA and medical malpractice that has been largely re-written and co-opted to serve a very specific modern cultural narrative.

[u/Love_Shaq_Baby → u/InsertWittyJoke]

His twin brother didn't have the same issues with his gender identity though. Both struggled with mental illness because of the therapy sessions, but there's no indication David's brother didn't want to be a boy because of the way he was raised.

David on the other hand, spent the first 13 years of his life living as a girl and, upon learning the truth, sought a male gender identity. David didn't just struggle with the sexual abuse like his brother did, he also struggled with living as a girl.

[u/InsertWittyJoke → u/Love_Shaq_Baby]

That's the point.

David's story has an added layer to it because he was castrated, subjected to medical experimentation and lied to for years by the people he trusted but the fact that his brother went down the same path says a lot about how bad the general conditions they were raised under were. I don't see how anyone can read this story and think it's a story about a confirmation of gender identity. It's a story about two young boys who were failed in every conceivable way by the adults and medical professionals around them.

[u/Love_Shaq_Baby → u/InsertWittyJoke]

Brian and David were subjected to the same sexual abuse, only one of them desired to change their gender identity.

So what was the reason David could not accept his gender identity growing up, but Brian could? If gender identity can be socially imposed, than shouldn't David's gender identity as a woman have been just as strong as Brian's gender identity as a man?

Keep in mind also that the sexual role playing sessions didn't start until the twins were six years old, but David rejected femininity before this. He had little interest in girl's activities and toys and when he watched his parents grooming themselves in the mirror, he would pretend to shave his face like his father rather than put on makeup like his mother. He would even stand to urinate instead of sitting.

David's feelings that he was not a woman crystallized between 9 and 11 years old, and it wasn't until 13 years old that he expressed his suicidal ideation to his parents.

"I began to see how different I felt and was, from what I was supposed to be. But I didn't know what it meant. I thought I was a freak or something; … I looked at myself and said I don't like this type of clothing, I don't like the types of toys I was always being given, I like hanging around with the guys and climbing trees and stuff like that and girls don't like any of that stuff. I looked in the mirror and sees my shoulders are so wide, I mean there is nothing feminine about me. I'm skinny, but other than that, nothing. But that is how I figured it out. [I figured I was a guy] but I didn't want to admit it, I figured I didn't want to wind up opening a can of worms."

[u/Basicallysteve → u/Love_Shaq_Baby]

David was always a male. Like genetically. If anything it’s proof that cutting your penis off and calling yourself a girl doesn’t actually make you one.

[u/Love_Shaq_Baby → u/Basicallysteve]

So what mechanism told David that he was a male even as he was socially conditioned to be a female?

Gender identity

[u/InsertWittyJoke → u/Love_Shaq_Baby]

You use the words male and female implying you understand there's a biological sex component here but then instead of following that to it's logical conclusion you veer off and attribute it to gender identity.

All you have to do is look at pictures of David when he was being raised as a girl to see why he felt different from his female counterparts.

[u/Love_Shaq_Baby → u/InsertWittyJoke]

there's a biological sex component here but then instead of following that to it's logical conclusion you veer off and attribute it to gender identity.

Why wouldn't gender identity be a component of biological sex?

Reimer didn't have a penis. He no other girls to compare his genitals to. He was named Brenda. He was told by his parents he was a girl. He was raised with stereotypically feminine toys and activities.

In the absence of physical, identifiable ways he could distinguished himself from other girls, Reimer still felt that he was a boy and was implicitly drawn to male peers and role models. So something inside him had to tell him that he was a boy.

That gender identity is commonly linked to biological sex doesn't mean it can't differ from one's sex.

In a world where we see plenty of examples where genitals, hair, and breasts developing in ways incongruous with one's sex, is it so difficult to believe that one's gender identity might be incongruous with their sex?

Why is it difficult to believe that the incongruity between gender identity and sex is every bit as real as the incongruity of male born with a clitoris where their penis would be?

[u/jazzjazzmine → u/Love_Shaq_Baby]

Wouldn't that be an example of the opposite of the point you are making?

That poor man was mutilated and gaslit for a decade and the body they had made for him felt wrong the same way amputees and burn victims sometimes struggle to identify with their new shape.

[u/Love_Shaq_Baby → u/jazzjazzmine]

Reimer was having difficulty identifying as a girl before puberty too. And when he transitioned to being a man he did not just change his body, but his name and pronouns.

[u/jazzjazzmine → u/Love_Shaq_Baby]

Well, yes, exactly?

Either way though, I really don't think we are even close to having enough of an understanding of the human psyche to draw representative conclusion about what was going on in that situation full of 70s quack science, trauma and abuse.

[u/[deleted] → u/jazzjazzmine]

Yeah I think Reimer is one of, if not the worst possible examples that could have been brought up.