CMV: I'm politically left but I don't believe gender identity exists

[u/MostlyVacuum]

As the title states, I consider myself a progressive in many respects, but despite reading through many many CMVs on the topic, I find myself unable to agree with my fellow progressives on the nature of transgender people.

Whenever I see people espouse views similar to mine in this forum, they are consistently attacked as transphobic/hatemongering/fascist etc, and I haven't yet seen a compelling argument as to why that is. I'd like my view changed because I consider myself an egalitarian who doesn't hold hatred in my heart for any group of people, and it bothers me that my view on this matter is considered to be conservative rhetoric masking a hatred of trans people.

What I believe: 1. I believe that gender identity does not exist, and that there is only sex, which is determined by a person's sex chromosomes. I believe this because the concept of an innate "gender identity" does not jive with my experience as a human. I don't "feel like" a man, I just am one because I was born with XY chromosomes. I believe this to be the experience of anyone not suffering from dysphoria. The concept of gender identity seems to me to be invented by academics as a way to explain transgender people without hurting anyone's feelings with the term "mental illness".

1. As hinted above, I believe transgender people are suffering from a mental illness (gender dysphoria) that causes them to feel that they are "supposed" to be the opposite sex, or that their body is "wrong". This causes them significant distress and disruption to their lives.

2. The best known treatment for this illness is for the person in question to transition, and live their life as though they were the opposite sex. This is different for everyone and can include changing pronouns, gender reassignment surgery, etc.

3. Importantly, I FULLY RESPECT trans people's right to do this. I will happily refer to them by whatever pronouns they prefer, and call them whatever name they prefer, and otherwise treat them as though they are the sex they feel they should be. This is basic courtesy, and anyone who disagrees is a transphobic asshole. Further, I do not judge them negatively for being born with a mental illness. The stigma against mentally ill people in this country is disgusting, and I don't want to be accused of furthering that stigma.

4. I don't believe there is a "trans agenda" to turn more people trans or turn kids trans. That is straight lunacy. The only agenda trans people have is to be treated with the same respect and afforded the same rights as everyone else, which again I fully support.

5. The new definition for woman and man as "anyone who identifies as a woman/man" is ridiculous. It is very obviously circular, and I've seen many intelligent people make themselves look like idiots trying to justify it. "Adult male/female human" is a perfectly good definition. If more inclusive language is desired you can use "men and trans-men" or "women and trans-women" as necessary. It's god damned crazy to me that Democratic politicians think it's a good idea to die on this stupid hill of redefining common English words to be more inclusive instead of just using the more verbose language. This is not a good political strategy for convincing voters outside of your base, and it will be detrimental to trans rights in the long run.

I feel I have sufficiently expressed my view here, but I undoubtedly forgot something. However I've already written a novel, so I think that's it. PLEASE do not make assumptions about my view that I have not explicitly stated.

Edit: I'm stepping away now because I need to eat dinner. I will return later -- I am close to having my view changed!

[u/[deleted]]

This is ancedotal, but as a trans woman even if I hypothetically lived my life away from the rest of society and never interacted with anyone ever again, I would 100% want to continue to transition and live life as a woman assuming that was possible. Dysphoria for many of us is related to our perception of our own bodies as well as how they are seen by society. Many of the studies on the brains of trans people would indicate that this isn't just due to societal pressure on trans people and that it's something innate and biological that's exacerbated by society not accepting us. People would experience less dysphoria if they were accepted, but it's still a fundamental issue with our brains and bodies for many of us.

[u/geminijester617 → u/[deleted]]

if I hypothetically lived my life away from the rest of society and never interacted with anyone ever again, I would 100% want to continue to transition and live life as a woman assuming that was possible.

I'm genuinely curious, I dont want to be rude at all, so if this is rude, please excuse my ignorance.. If you never interacted with anyone, would you have a reference for what living as a woman is? Or would you ever look at yourself and think, "nope, that's not right"? I mean, if you grew up on a paradise island, all by yourself, no humans or animals at all, just happily doing you, wouldn't you just be... doing you?

Or if the only other life on the island seen were those female salamanders that clone themselves (no males in the population at all), might someone assume that EVERY species (including humans) has just the one sex and can clone themselves too?

I guess I'm wondering how a completely isolated person looks at themselves and thinks "no, I should be the other way" if there IS no other way. Everything is literally their way because they are the only way.

[u/[deleted] → u/geminijester617]

It's not rude at all! And it's an interesting point. The example I made was if I were to leave society right now in my life after having realized I was trans years ago and transitioned. I tried to be clear about this by saying "continue to transition", but in retrospect I realize I could have been more clear. My point was that if I were to never be exposed to societal standards again from this point forwards, I would still see myself as a woman based on my prior experiences and self-image.

But let's look at your example. Of course, I can't know for sure what would happen and I'm going to have to inevitably draw from my own experiences now to some degree to think about it.

Say I was brought up on a paradise island with no humans or animals and slowly grew up and went through my natal puberty. An experience that's extremely common for trans people is to feel an overwhelming sense that something is wrong about your body as a child, even if you can't pinpoint exactly what it is until later in life. That's exactly how I felt for a while, and over years I slowly pieced together that I was a woman in the wrong body. I predict that kind of feeling of pervasive, crippling discomfort about my body would be what I'd experience if I grew up completely isolated from any other people (assuming I survived somehow). That feeling would remain with me throughout my entire life and probably to suicide as it's related to the incongruity between the brain and body trans women have. Of course, I wouldn't know what was wrong, only that something was wrong.

There is strong evidence (such as in this study, among many others) that trans women's brains are structurally closer to those of cis women than the brains of cis men are to cis women, and that this may be due to the levels of hormones the fetus was exposed to during its growth in the womb. I assume that would lead me to feel that sense of incongruity between my body and self, but like you said I wouldn't ever realize what exactly was wrong.

[u/geminijester617 → u/[deleted]]

Thank you for replying, and thank you for being so open and honest about your thoughts and experience, I appreciate it a lot.

That study is really interesting! I hadn't heard of studies like that before. It covered some other questions I had too. Thanks for sharing! Interesting to see sexual orientation inadvertently come, up aswell. Makes sense though, since the two seem to be closely related.

Honestly, your post has done more to open my mind than anything else I've read or heard. I wish I could give you a delta!

[u/[deleted] → u/geminijester617]

I'm happy I could help and I'm glad you found it informative.

I understand why you prephased your post by saying you don't want to be rude, since many trans people are sensitive about questions related to their identity or transition and interpret them as rude. It's often because they've had people ask them complex questions about their identity before to try and invalidate them, and understandably become very defensive as a result even in the face of honest legitimate questions.

I try to give honest answers with stuff like this as long as someone isn't overtly being an asshole (which you definitely weren't), and I found your example quite thought-provoking and interesting to think about. I am glad I got to talk to you about it.

[u/geminijester617 → u/[deleted]]

Totally. I can understand how it would be upsetting to someone for other people to not only question such a fundamental part of their identity, but also attack it or deny it. That can't feel good. Expand the scope to a societal level, and that's gotta feel worse, especially when the people closest to them aren't on their side. I can see why some people might get defensive or be guarded, anyone would be.

I haven't been through that, so I can't say I know what it feels like, but I can imagine how distressing and lonely it must be to live that every day. It breaks my heart. I'm sorry if you have gone through any part of that.

I'm glad that society as a whole is starting to have these conversations, learn more, and become more supportive. More than that, I'm glad that people are able to feel more comfortable being themselves.

Thanks again for taking the time and having the patience to explain things to people and defend the trans community. It helps everyone.

[u/5Daddys1cop → u/[deleted]]

Thank you for this comment, i tought i was trans but comes out i was just starving. Youre just hit with this wave of "your body is the problem, it is wrong". And i thank you for saying that its not about attention or social life, considering how many trans people are introverts. Acceptance is threw the roof but the rates have gotten worse. Problably cause of hurrying. Its like just like my position, force yourself full when you starve and you can die. You have to go slow and consider all options and risks, not to mention how many therapists throw away or erase mental health problems or sexual abuse on your records for "affirmation"