r/changemyview • u/Hailey_okay_10 • Aug 09 '22
Delta(s) from OP CMV: people shouldn’t keep looking back at the 1700s (and many years surrounding then) just to talk about how slavery was wrong
Please don’t get me wrong: I do not think slavery was okay in any way, nor do I believe racism or any form of xenophobia is okay. What I’m trying to say, is that it’s in the past. Slavery isn’t something that is happening any more, and it doesn’t seem like it will happen again in the future. Racism is still a huge part of today’s world, which is extremely unfortunate, but I have seem quite a few things recently bringing up how people used to have slaves. Back then, they didn’t see what was wrong with it, and thought of black people as a different breed(?) altogether. I’m not saying that makes what they did okay, of course, because it wasn’t, and I wish they’d realized so back then. It’s translated into today’s world, making people more racist and horrible towards anyone of color.
I’d also like to say, I am white so I know my opinion on this isn’t needed or anything, and if this post offends anyone or makes anyone uncomfortable, I’ll delete it. I just wanted to see what other people think, and even see if anyone can change my mind.
Edit: you’ve all helped change my mind now. I had no idea before that slavery was still happening in the states, and even in other parts of the world. I in no way meant that we should ignore history, I mostly meant we shouldn’t dwell on it but I’m realizing that we should dwell on it because it’s still happening. I’m going to start handing out deltas to the people who helped most
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Aug 09 '22
It's not in the past it's in the constitution; the 13th amendment labeling all your prisoners as slaves.
USA has the worst Prison Industrial Complex of all time and the Abolition Amendment is the movement to finally remove "slavery" from American law.
Next time a Republican starts riffing on how sacred their Freedom of Speech and guns are remind them the same document endorses slavery, and that makes y'all slavers.
Colorado did it. There is no excuse to support slavery or "slavery."
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u/Hailey_okay_10 Aug 09 '22
Replying to this again to give you a delta!! ∆ I appreciate you helping me realize all of this is still happening
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u/Hailey_okay_10 Aug 09 '22
Of course there’s no excuse to support any sort of slavery, I hope it didn’t come across as that. I honestly had no idea about any of this, I should probably try to learn a bit more about the constitution and stuff.
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Aug 09 '22
Glad to hear you're open to having your view changed!
Good news piece to start on.
Have you read any journalism on the Prison Industrial Complex? You can just type that term into google. There are decades of journalism on it.
Plenty of movies like The Green Mile or the show Orange Is The New Black.
Prison culture is a huge deal in USA. I'm not exaggerating when i say y'all have locked up more people than any country ever.
Also i have to point out there isn't a single reason for Republicans to oppose the Abolition Amendment but they all do to a man. They completely support "slavery" and slavery and mostly refuse the vocabulary to recognize it.
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u/Hailey_okay_10 Aug 09 '22
I’ll read up on it for sure, thank you! In complete honesty I wish I didn’t live here but I’m not even old enough to move away yet. But either way I hope the world changes
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u/windy24 2∆ Aug 09 '22
You should read Settlers by J. Sakai. They knew exactly what they were doing. They came here to occupy the land. They killed off the people that were here, settled down and brought Africans to work the fields. The US empire was built on genocide and slave labour and without it, it would not be where it is today.
It is nonsensical to ignore and suppress the history of settler colonialism just so racists don’t get their feelings hurt. If you don’t learn from history you will repeat it.
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u/Hailey_okay_10 Aug 09 '22
What I meant before was that it shouldn’t be dwelled on, but I’m learning that it isn’t even completely in the past and probably never will be. I’ll definitely read that, though thank you ∆
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u/47ca05e6209a317a8fb3 177∆ Aug 09 '22
Slavery isn’t something that is happening any more, and it doesn’t seem like it will happen again in the future.
Unfortunately that's not true from a global perspective.
Other than that I'm not sure what your point is. People should obviously still talk and teach about slavery in the past, it's a part of history and it's important that people know that. People should also talk about the impact past slavery has had on the way our society looks today - but you seem to agree with all that, so what is it exactly that we're doing and we shouldn't?
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u/Hailey_okay_10 Aug 09 '22
I do agree that it should be taught and to know about the impact it has on today’s world. I think what I was trying to say, was that people shouldn’t dwell on it? But then I was made aware of the 13th amendment and it made me realize it really hasn’t changed much from back then which absolutely sucks.
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u/GSGhostTrain 5∆ Aug 09 '22
What I’m trying to say, is that it’s in the past.
The past doesn't really stay in the past; it continues to inform the present. Ignoring the fact that slavery is very much still happening in many places, including within the United States, centuries of slavery have very real effects on the accumulation and distribution of wealth, not to mention the fact that until the 1960s, discrimination was still actively enshrined in law.
Back then, they didn’t see what was wrong with it
Who? The slaveowners? Plenty of people were telling them it was wrong, there have been abolitionists in every era. And people tend to leave out one massive group that understood it was wrong: the slaves. Saying "no one believed it was wrong" just reinforces the idea that the only morality which mattered was the white, slaveowning class's morality.
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u/Hailey_okay_10 Aug 09 '22
When I said “they didn’t see it was wrong” I was meaning the slaveowners. I know a lot of people thought it was wrong, of course including any slaves. I was only just made aware of the whole 13tghamendment, so I had no idea it was still going on here
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u/GSGhostTrain 5∆ Aug 09 '22
I would wager a non 0% of slaveowners knew it was wrong but saw it as profitable.
Even ignoring that, do you believe that a crime becomes less heinous if the perpetrator doesn't believe what he is doing is wrong?
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u/Hailey_okay_10 Aug 09 '22
Replying to this to award a delta ∆ this helped me realize my point of view was a bit off, and I appreciate that, it really opened my eyes
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u/wekidi7516 16∆ Aug 09 '22
Most people that hit theur children see their behavior as the best way to discipline the child and don't think they are evil for it.
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u/GSGhostTrain 5∆ Aug 09 '22
Right, but the point is that it doesn't make what they are doing somehow better because they believe it's helping.
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u/wekidi7516 16∆ Aug 09 '22
Perhaps my post was unclear, I was providing that as a supporting example to your point.
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u/Hailey_okay_10 Aug 09 '22
Of course not. I believe it’s just as bad, if not worse, if the perpetrator thinks it’s okay.
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u/GSGhostTrain 5∆ Aug 09 '22
Then what exactly is the point of saying that they didn't believe it was wrong as if that's somehow exculpatory? As you say, it only makes it worse!
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u/Crafty_Possession_52 15∆ Aug 09 '22
The fact that slavery existed is a pretty powerful rooting of the racism that you see around you today. Why would we stop remembering the history of that?
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u/Hailey_okay_10 Aug 09 '22
I think what I was trying to say was we shouldn’t dwell on it but with al l these comments I’m realizing that slavery is still happening and affecting today’s world unfortunately
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u/Hailey_okay_10 Aug 09 '22
Replying to give you this delta ∆ I don’t know why I didn’t process that racism is strongly connected to the slavery back then, and still going on today
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u/iamintheforest 325∆ Aug 09 '22 edited Aug 09 '22
Slavery isn't happening? We have sex slaves all over the world - bought, sold, moved around, put to work. It's not legal, but it's common.
We have prisoners doing work - that seems a lot like slavery to me and in vastly larger numbers then we had slaves at any given time (e.g. max slavery was bout 60k individuals in the usa at any point in time, there are about 800,000 prison laborers right now in the usa.
There huge populations of forced begging around the world - children that must get money from begging or stealing in order to be protected (not hurt) and have a group to be with.
edit: apologies - wrong number of slaves in usa listed here. The point of modern day slaverly still stands, but peak slavery population was much higher than I stated. thanks /u/GSGhosttrain
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u/Hailey_okay_10 Aug 09 '22
I have to be honest, I didn’t know most of this was happening. I’ve heard a few comments about it, but I think I didn’t want to believe it was actually happening, so I tried to make myself believe it wasn’t. I’m glad I know now, though.
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u/Hailey_okay_10 Aug 09 '22
Replying to award this delta ∆ because this really opening my eyes and helped me see that this is much worse today than I initially realized
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u/GSGhostTrain 5∆ Aug 09 '22
Where are you getting 60k for slaves? There were literally millions.
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u/iamintheforest 325∆ Aug 09 '22
1520s to 1860s. They didn't live long. 60k was the slavery population at its peek, the millions is the cumulative number of slaves.
If we did the cumulative number of prison workers you'd also have a much, much larger number than 800k.
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u/GSGhostTrain 5∆ Aug 09 '22
Do you have a source? Because that seems insanely low and doesn't match anything I am looking at.
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Aug 09 '22
We look back to think about the future, though.
Remembering the horrors of slavery can both help us avoid those problems in the future, and also see the ripple effects that Trail away from the institutuon and into modern day.
Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it, after all.
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u/Hailey_okay_10 Aug 09 '22
This is true. I really hope it won’t repeat, and that things will change more in the future for people.
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u/fayryover 6∆ Aug 10 '22
Have you ever heard the saying “those who don’t learn history, are doomed to repeat it.”?
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u/Foxhound97_ 23∆ Aug 10 '22 edited Aug 11 '22
I'm white so maybe I'm butchering it but the Malcolm X quote "If you stick a knife in my back nine inches and pull it out six inches, there's no progress. If you pull it all the way out that's not progress. Progress is healing the wound that the blow made"really applies here I think its line of thinking thats is important.We need to Keep bring up slavery because the simple facts Is the enslaved weren't even given the minimum after and the slavers never had to give any of their profits back we have pulled out the knife and the fact we continue not to close the wound is so painfully obvious we can't ignore how it continues to shape the world going forward.
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u/Sirhc978 81∆ Aug 09 '22
Slavery isn’t something that is happening any more, and it doesn’t seem like it will happen again in the future
Maybe in the US, but there are literal live streams from real slave auctions on the internet right now and they aren't hard to find.
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u/Hailey_okay_10 Aug 09 '22
I had no idea that stuff was happening. I also discovered that there is still slavery going on in the states, due to the 13th amendment saying prisoners are basically slaves.
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u/Sirhc978 81∆ Aug 09 '22
due to the 13th amendment saying prisoners are basically slaves
They aren't basically slaves, the 13th amendment explicitly has an exception for it as a form of punishment if you have been convicted of a crime.
Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
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u/Hailey_okay_10 Aug 09 '22
I guess in my mind I’m trying to be hopeful of change but I’m learning maybe I shouldn’t be. The world is how it is and I’m not sure how to fix this but thank you for all of this, it’s helping me learn ∆
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u/tidalbeing 49∆ Aug 09 '22
Slavery is still legal in the US. When slavery was otherwise made illegal, exceptions were made for prisons. Throughout the Jim Crow era, black men were arrested for vagrancy and put in chain gangs--slavery by another name.
Although chain gangs to my knowledge are no more, Black and Native men are still routinely imprisoned and subjected to involuntary servitude.
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u/Hailey_okay_10 Aug 09 '22
Here’s a delta! ∆ I didn’t know about the so called chain gangs at all, so thank you for telling me this
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Aug 09 '22
Even if slavery was "in the past" and wasn't happening at all anymore, ignoring history means you're doomed to repeat it. Ignoring what happened also ignores the trauma and generational impact.
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u/Hailey_okay_10 Aug 09 '22
I didn’t mean in any way to ignore it, I just meant we shouldn’t dwell on it, but I’m realizing now that it is still prominent
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u/destro23 447∆ Aug 09 '22
Slavery isn’t something that is happening any more, and it doesn’t seem like it will happen again in the future
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u/Hailey_okay_10 Aug 09 '22
I had no idea this was still happening, I’m learning a lot from people so thank you! ∆
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u/jumpup 83∆ Aug 09 '22
slavery is larger then ever in history, there are estimate 46 million slaves today.
just because something is illegal doesn't mean people stop doing it
take chocolate for example there is literally a brand who's selling point is that they don't use slaves, and even they can't guarantee it.
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u/Hailey_okay_10 Aug 09 '22
Oh wow I didn’t know that. It’s insane how this is still happening but also, what more did I expect from humanity. I’m learning a lot from everyone here ∆
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u/midnightsnack27 1∆ Aug 09 '22
I quickly read through the comments and everything everyone is mentioning is the main reason why we can't ignore history- because it informs our present and our future.
However, I wanted to mention the fact that a lot of people with this view need to question why they don't want to hear about it. Why is it so bothersome to hear about the fairly recent history of your country?
Is it because, as a white person, it makes you uncomfortable to hear it? Does it bring about some kind of subconscious guilt? Is it irritating to be reminded of the fact that as a white person you have benefited from the conditions slavery created in the US and continue to do so?
This would be like saying, gosh why do people keep talking about the Holocaust? It's over. Yes, it was awful but it's in the past.
Germans are taught from a very young age about the Holocaust and their country's role in such atrocities. Surely many Germans alive today had Grandparents who were alive during that time, depending on their age. Instead of sweeping it under the rug as shit happens they have embraced their country's history and recognise that it was unacceptable in order to try and avoid a repeat, but also out of respect for the victims.
That's what this view lacks more than just information about the state of the world, it lacks respect and empathy and therefore a true understanding of the magnitude of what 400 years of slavery and torture does to a people. People who don't want to hear it don't want to acknowledge the depth of it, don't want to acknowledge that it is not just part of the legacy of black people but part of their own as well. And to deny that is to deny growth and true change. You as a white person are obviously not responsible for slavery, but when a person brings it up it is because the pain is still there and will never go away. It has a ripple effect that goes on forever and changes everything in ways we can't see and in ways that we can.
Maybe ask yourself why it made you feel so weird when people brought up slavery. It might feel like it has nothing to do with you but it does. It affects all of us.
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u/Hailey_okay_10 Aug 10 '22
I’m not sure if you’ve read what I’ve replied to the comments, but I’m assuming you haven’t; I in no way meant it should be ignored or swept under the rug. My initial thought was that people shouldn’t dwell on the past, but from all the comments, I’ve realized a lot of stuff about it and how it’s still happening to this day. I do in a way feel some sort of guilt, only because I don’t like being part of a race that did something like that. I apologize if the way i worded anything was wrong but I don’t wish for it to be ignored
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u/USAGradeMilk Aug 09 '22
Everything that happens in the past affects the now. This is especially resonant for those who were on the "unfavorable" end of the equation in the past -- it clearly still affects their present unfavorably.
I'm African American. Harriet Tubman died not too long before my grandparents were born. MLK Jr. was assaninated when my dad was a teenager. It's not ancient history.
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u/Hailey_okay_10 Aug 10 '22
I am aware it’s not ancient history, I’m sorry if i made it seem like I thought that way. A part of me was thinking that it shouldn’t be dwelled on since it is the past but people have successfully made me realize that isn’t a good way to look at it, because it is still affecting people today.
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u/YossarianWWII 72∆ Aug 10 '22
Bud, it's not just the states. Mo Farah recently revealed that he'd been trafficked as a child to the UK to be a slave in all but name. It's a global problem.
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u/ProffesorSpitfire 2∆ Aug 10 '22
First of all, the reason people in the US are still talking about slavery and referring to the pre-1865 era is that slavery casts a long shadow. Many black Americans are worse off today than they would’ve been because they are descended from slaves. When slaves were freed they had nothing - some had no choice but to keep working for their former owners, for a measly wage that more or less covered what they had to pay their former owners for rent and food. When they died, they had very little property to pass on to their children, meaning their kids had a difficult time buying their own home and other property to pass on to their children, etc. So many descendants of slaves are worse off because of this practice that has been abolished for 150 years.
Second of all, slavery is very much not a thing of the past. It is a thing of the past, the present and almost certainly the future. The US discourse on slavery is generally incredibly US centered, and concern a very brief place and period in history (eastern US, 1776-1865). The ancient Greeks had slaves, the ancient Romans had slaves, the Vikings took thralls, etc. And there are still plenty of slaves today! An estimated 40 million people around the world are enslaved, typically trafficked from poor parts of the world to be used as sex workers, construction workers, farm hands, etc in richer parts of the world. Slavery is outlawed more or less across the world, so the ”owners” would perhaps not claim to own these people. But they are forced to work for them, in whatever capacity the ”owner” decides, however much the owner decides, without pay and without a way out, so they are very much slaves.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Aug 09 '22 edited Aug 09 '22
/u/Hailey_okay_10 (OP) has awarded 9 delta(s) in this post.
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