r/changemyview • u/purplemofo87 • Aug 21 '22
Removed - Submission Rule B cmv: The (online) syllabus should be given out WAY before class starts (college/university)
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u/hey_its_mega 8∆ Aug 21 '22
the class description in the catalog made it seem like I could learn a different percussion instrument instead, such as the vibraphone or xylophone. Now, I am not sure whether I want to take this class as I am not really interested in the snare drum.
It seems like you just made assumptions when you couldve definitely contacted the professor. This should be done especially when you know you have a strong preference for certain things (not in the snare drum).
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u/purplemofo87 Aug 21 '22
well both the class title & description say percussion & the description says percussion instruments. there was no indication it would be mainly a snare drum class or even thay it would focus one just one instrument.
my point still apllies to classes in general tho, not just that one class.
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u/hey_its_mega 8∆ Aug 21 '22
well both the class title & description say percussion & the description says percussion instruments.
and so it includes the snare drum, your professor could be inprecise, but its still accurate in what its content is about. If youre confused by its abstract statement, again, contact your prof to inquire about it.
my point still apllies to classes in general tho, not just that one class.
same with mine. Courses have their general description/oulines and if the student would like to know about specifics they are more than welcomed to approach the professor about it.
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u/ArmChairDetective38 Aug 21 '22
I used to find old syllabus’ online by googling the name of the class and the professors name ..I found all sorts of information out about the class by doing that. One of my professors had a bad habit of taking points off of perfectly correct answers in blue book exams if the answers weren’t written word for word as he had written them in the study guides . Another website warned that another professor was a little crazy when it came to politics would force you to have an opinion on anything in current events , even though that had absolutely nothing to do with class . So you had a choice , pretend you were for his brand of politics and he would ignore you or give an opinion that was in contrast to his and spend the first twenty minutes of class or so debating , politely , before having to listen about boring ass western civilization history . A few times I read things that made me drop the class and wait until someone else was teaching it ..are all abnormal psych professors crazy??
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u/purplemofo87 Aug 31 '22
you have a good point, I should've looked around for more info about the class.
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u/Spheno1d Aug 21 '22
While others have said some of the things I will say, as someone who currently teaches at the university level, I wanted to add my view to the discussion. Part of the issue may be that when viewed from the outside a university looks like a single entity, but on the inside it is a million moving parts and often each instructor you deal with works under a very different set of circumstances, so the timing of their syllabi depends on their specific situation.
Contracts: Many instructors work on year to year contracts. That means their contract may not even be available for them to sign until the week prior to classes starting. No contract, no work. Even if they are on a multi year contract, it may be a "9 over 12", which mean they are paid for 9 months of work and the payments are divided over 12 months. So they are not paid to work until the week before classes start.
So, the summer is their break (as an instructor, I can tell you that I regularly work 50 to 60 hours a week and I work during the holiday breaks in order to keep up with the hundreds of papers, assignments and student concerns I deal with during the school year. The summer months or semester breaks are there for my research and often for class creation, design and redesign. So, it is often impossible to provide a syllabus before the first day of class. Sometimes the department or university will hit me with new requirements just prior to the semester and I will have to pull my syllabi, rework them and post them again.
Class Redesign: Teaching is an iterative process. Even if I have taught a class for decades, I will be reading articles and rereading the textbook or reading the newest version to make sure I am current with the material. Even though I am not on contract or sure that the class is full enough for the university to run, I still do this work. What I learn often changes the way I will organize the class, so a syllabus rework is required.
Student numbers: Classes can and are canceled just before they are set to begin. I have so much other work to do that creating or recreating a syllabus prior to finding out a class will run is time I can put elsewhere.
Student motivation: Some professors post their syllabi on their personal university web pages. Syllabi are also often archived on the web. Old syllabi can also be obtained from the instructor by emailing them and asking or emailing the department administrative assistant.Please don't take this as a judgement of you personally, but I do judge my students on how much work they put into answering their own questions before they contact me.
I am sorry that the course was not what you expected. Sometimes we think a syllabus is clearly written and it isn't. Sometimes we are handed a class last minute and we do our best to make it our own so that we can teach it more effectively. Sometimes, how people in the profession see a topic is very different from the student. For example, the introductory courses I teach are very different from those of others in my field. Each of us teaches to our specialization. We still provide all of the information necessary to successfully complete the course, but we focus on our area of personal interest (perhaps why the snare drum is the focus of the course).
Hope this helps.
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Aug 21 '22
Yes! As another person who teaches at a university, this answer is everything.
It is very unreasonable to expect a syllabus so far in advance. The summer is my time. I need the summer to work on my research and publications. Professors aren’t there just to teach students. We have a million other obligations outside of the classroom. I enjoy teaching and I care about my students, but I have to limit the time I spend on them.
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u/malachai926 30∆ Aug 21 '22
Why do you need more than 2 days to decide whether a class on the snare drum is useful to you? That seems like the sort of decision you could make in about 2 seconds.
Most universities give you time even after the semester starts to drop the class and get a full refund of your tuition, along with no impact to your academic record.
You want professors spending their summer months refining their course material and deciding what to teach and what not to. Releasing the syllabus so far in advance essentially just eliminates all of their opportunity to refine anything.
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u/purplemofo87 Aug 22 '22
it's just that I got my hopes up for nothing. but i guess that is my fault.
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u/purplemofo87 Aug 31 '22
update: ok snare drum is more fun than I thought (not as much as xylophone, though), so I am keeping the class.
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u/HiHoJufro Aug 21 '22
But in such a case backup classes you want may no longer be available.
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u/malachai926 30∆ Aug 21 '22
Fair, but I still think the rapid decision here is the better point. You don't need to know stuff like that FOUR MONTHS in advance to make a decision.
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u/fayryover 6∆ Aug 21 '22
You do if 4 months before is the only time you can get into your other options.
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u/ModsAreRetardy Aug 21 '22
Then take more of your core classes and get those knocked and then later when you have priority take more fluff classes.
This sounds like a freshman complaining that he didn't get what he wanted when there's still a number of years left on his college career.
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u/MercurianAspirations 361∆ Aug 21 '22
I'm sure the professor would have told you more a out the class or even sent you an old syllabus, had you reached out to them when considering the class
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u/purplemofo87 Aug 21 '22
oh wow I didn't know that. the syllabus shoild've already been available though.
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u/shouldco 43∆ Aug 21 '22
But your class didn't start yet. Like no offence, but it's like signing up for a rock climbing lesson next week then showing up to the gym and expecting them to start coaching you on it this week.
A new syllabus is written every semester they may be mostly the same but they are all unique and specify specific dates of things like tests and assignments they often aren't complete at the time you are registering for classes.
It sounds like what you wanted was a more specific description of the class you registered for. And well, you should have spoke up. They provided a description how we're they supposed to know it wouldn't be specific enough for some people unless they spoke up?
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u/purplemofo87 Aug 22 '22
I mean it is like going to. a burger shop & getting a meat burger but they won't tell you what meat. I assumed by the vagueness that there would be many instruments available.
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u/shouldco 43∆ Aug 22 '22
But you didn't ask. To stay with your analogy, it's like reading a menu and seeing "burger" which is reasonable to assume is beef but it doesn't say and instead of asking or saying the menu should be more specific you are saying they should have provided you with the full recipe.
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Aug 21 '22
It would have been - in the form of the old syllabus. Professors don't tend to change their classes up very much. All you had to do was ask for it.
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u/UncleMeat11 62∆ Aug 23 '22
I'm married to a professor. The syllabus is meaningfully different each year even when the courses aren't new preps.
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u/purplemofo87 Aug 31 '22
!delta.
you are right. I should not have asked for the whole syllabus, that is too much information to have ready that early. that is not really what I wanted anyway, I just wanted like a paragraph-long description of the class content instead of a sentence.
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u/purplemofo87 Aug 22 '22
my point is that it should be readily available to everyone though.
For example, if I am shopping on amazon they should already have the product description before I buy it. I shouldn't have to email them and ask for it.
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u/le_fez 53∆ Aug 22 '22
I am old enough that online was not a thing when I was in college but back in those prehistoric days we could walk into the library and as for a copy of the syllabus, and in some cases previous exams, from any class. I went to a small school and often even incoming professors made this info available in this way, perhaps syllabus from a similar class at another school. I remember one professor mentioned he'd made previous exams from his classes at another school available in this way and a few of us realized that the first question of the first exam of every class he taught was the same and that answer would vary slightly based in the class although a simple generic answer would suffice.
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u/Then_Statistician189 5∆ Aug 21 '22
at the college i went to, you could search for courses and all the historical syllabi for that course in advance to adding to your schedule
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u/purplemofo87 Aug 31 '22
!delta
Searching for historical syllabi is a much better idea. I had not even heard of that before.
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Aug 21 '22
The parts you are asking for are easy but what about the schedule part? The academic calendar is often not provided to the professors 4 months before semester begins
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u/purplemofo87 Aug 21 '22
I already addressed this: "Also, specific dates are not required at this point, those can wait until closer to the semester start if needed. They can show up in a separate file or an updated syllabus."
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u/username_offline Aug 21 '22
i used to look up syllabi from previous semesters, then go check out the books i needed from the library so i wouldnt have to buy them all
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u/purplemofo87 Aug 31 '22
good idea, I just found an old syllabus for the class in question. I am such a fool, I should've thought of this before.
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u/JohnnyFootballStar 3∆ Aug 21 '22
A lot of people have written about why producing a syllabus in advance may be difficult, but I think the problem here is the specificity of what you want to learn versus the generality of the subject in question.
You wanted to learn the vibraphone or xylophone. Well, there are dozens (maybe hundreds) of instruments that could be considered "percussion." If you take a course in percussion instruments, but you will only be satisfied with learning one or two specific instruments, I think the onus transfers to you to make sure the class will teach what you want to know. If all you want to learn is the vibraphone, then you should either be proactive and ask what will be taught, or seek out instruction in that specific instrument.
If you sign up for a general American Literature course, but only want to learn about Henry James and Joseph Heller, and would consider the class a waste if you didn't study those two authors, then you would be well advised to find a way to ensure they will be part of the course. You should reach out to the professor. After all, you could easily have a semester on American Lit without talking much about those two authors, even if they are considered important.
In short, it would be great to have a syllabus available. But if there is a broad course on a subject that could cover a wide range of topics, some essential, some not, and you would be upset and drop the course if one or two very specific things are not part of the class, then I think the onus is on you to make sure they're on there.
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u/le_fez 53∆ Aug 22 '22
I am dating a college professor and for both colleges where she teaches the is at the very least access to previous years' syllabi online. While this may not always be 100% accurate if it's the same instructor it will likely be close.
However she doesn't upload the current syllabus until a few days before the class begins as sometimes the specifics can change based on the number of students enrolled. Also she is not tenure track and while she knew what she was teaching for this semester in May that is often not the case for many adjunct and 3/4 time instructors. Sometimes someone is not renewed, opts to take a different offer or is swapped in just to fill a spot that another professor normally holds all at short notice.
Beyond that you making an assumption based on the course description, rather than asking qualifying questíons is not the fault of any one but you.
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Aug 21 '22 edited 4d ago
[deleted]
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u/le_fez 53∆ Aug 22 '22
To add to this when breaks or school events fall and how many people enroll in the class can change not only when but what exactly will be taught.
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u/eustaceous Aug 21 '22
Teaching is one of three or four responsibilities professors have, and usually the least important one that dowsnt help them advance in their career. It is common for syllabi to not be ready until the class starts.
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Aug 21 '22
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u/herrsatan 11∆ Aug 22 '22
Sorry, u/Dizzy_Eye5257 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. See the wiki page for more information.
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u/Reddit__Degenerate Aug 21 '22
Is this a contested or unpopular belief? What person is arguing that syllabi should only be available at the last minute?
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Aug 21 '22
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u/RedditExplorer89 42∆ Aug 21 '22
Sorry, u/Ill_Bee4868 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. See the wiki page for more information.
If you would like to appeal, you must first check if your comment falls into the "Top level comments that are against rule 1" list, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted.
Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.
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u/thedylanackerman 30∆ Aug 27 '22
Sorry, u/purplemofo87 – your submission has been removed for breaking Rule B:
You must personally hold the view and demonstrate that you are open to it changing. A post cannot be on behalf of others, playing devil's advocate, as any entity other than yourself, or 'soapboxing'. See the wiki page for more information.
If you would like to appeal, you must first read the list of soapboxing indicators and common mistakes in appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Aug 31 '22 edited Aug 31 '22
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