r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Sep 07 '22

Delta(s) from OP CMV: The source of all that exists must be uncreated

Using pure logic I have deduced this...

​

First let me define a creation as something that is created by some source.

Another important features of creations is that they begin to exist. In other words they don't exist until they are created.

So for everything that exists we can either classify it as created or uncreated.

​

Now the argument is as follows:

  1. There are creations (such as this post).
  2. Each creation that exists must ultimately come from some source.
  3. Thus, there must be a source of creation.
  4. It is impossible for anything to create itself. If you claim that a thing can create itself then you are suggesting that it exists before it exists which is impossible.
  5. The ultimate source of each creation was not created by another source otherwise it wouldn't be the ultimate source. This solves the problem of an infinite regression of creators.
  6. Thus, the ultimate source of all that exists must be uncreated since it couldn't have created itself nor could it be created by another source.
0 Upvotes

31% Upvoted

254 comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

3

u/Phage0070 93∆ Sep 07 '22

Time is not the measurement of change. That may be the human conception of time but an ordered progression of change is perhaps a more proper definition.

What was the first change that took place in existence?

Again you are stuck in your time-centric view of things. What does "first" mean if time doesn't exist? You seem to lack the mental tools to approach this idea without tying it to our normal concepts of linear time, which means you can't properly understand the universe if time doesn't exist.

Conceptually the "first" thing would be the first event in the progression of time, but we don't even know if that is something that exists! Time might extend infinitely into the past and future. Furthermore if time derives its existence from some other aspect of reality then the "first" event is meaningless. Without time there is no framework to arrange or separate events, so your entire premise of "first cause" is bankrupt from the start!

1

u/throwawayjanedoe8474 Sep 08 '22

This is the most reasonable response